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Lol people just love to hate Kenny. I am one of them, but I see nothing wrong with this quote.

I would like to state though that despite the many people against rendon because it moves moncada around again...I think getting Rendon would be so clearly a net positive that you go for it. He's so good. I just also get some Adrian Beltre "he'l be good forever" vibes from him.

He doesn’t care unless it happens to him. What do you think he’s going to charge the field and tackle them?

Let's hope so.

But they cant spend too much future money cause they have to lock up current player at some point lol

If they aren't going to be in on Cole/Stras/Wheeler hypothetically, I'd want them to make a run at Ryu. Keuchel is a fat No from me on a multi year deal.

The problem is, eventually the Sox will be at their 2014-2016 level and will need to make additions to see it through. It didn't work then, it hasn't worked since 2005, except in 2008. With basically the same guys making the decisions, what do we have to hang our collective hats on? Money-wise, when they "went for it" in 2015, Sale, Q, and Eaton, combined, made less than Abreu will make even if he signs for less than the QO. Hey, maybe they can have a good season, and make the playoffs once. OK, I can see that. But sustained winning? They have never done it. Did they just need 15-20 years of seasoning? This period of hurt is supposed to pay off with winning. So much winning that the Sox wanted no part of giving a 10 year contract last year because it would make it tough in years 9 and 10.

The widely-held misconception that the GM is primarily responsible for all the things listed in the OP is fascinating to me, because it leads fans to spend a lot of time and energy forming very strong opinions about these people as if they can actually know them — which, since no one actually can, on either side of the argument, leads almost to the creation of a fictional universe inside a fans mind where being the GM of a team is actually just like playing OOTP. Where people actually think that each decision is made by a single person, inside the near vacuum of how a fan views the game — virtually ignoring all the context of running a business, such as satisfying ownerships demands, balancing a budget that achieves revenue and profit goals, professional development of employees who have been delegated important tasks, etc. There’s no doubt that this franchise has been a joke the last ten or fifteen years, from top to bottom — certainly in terms of performance on the field and, from all outward appearances, as a brand and promotional entity as well. But the line of thought that connects a poster talking about Rick Hahn as an intelligent person based on his education and mannerisms and another poster arguing the opposite using evidence such as the White Sox’ lack of success acquiring amateur talent in Latin America is bizarre.

If we traded the best college hitter in years for Benintendi straight up we should be calling for hahns job. Horrible trade idea.

That would be a horrible move. Three years of Benintendi coming of a fairly ordinary year is not worth a top 20 prospect plus taking on a albatross contract.

This is a vast over simplification that is only considering top 100 status. There could be teams that are high on Stiever & Walker for example, whether Baseball America or Pipeline have them ranked as top 100 prospects. Also, the Dodgers nearly traded us two years of Pederson for a pair of interesting arms, neither of which were top 100 guys. Your view on prospect value is very much outdated, as even guys in the 101 to 200 range are commanding quite a bit of value today.

I agree it won’t cripple the franchise. But why pay the guy 3/$45M when his market value is 1/$15M max and you already basically have 1/$17.8M in hand. I don’t mind Jose sticking around. We need above average bats and he is that. 2/$28-30M seems fair for both sides if he really wants to go beyond 1 year. I just feel like a deal similar to that has probably been on the table for some time.

As the poster who called Rick Hahn "a very smart guy" and expressed optimism in his abilities to take us to the next level...I will again express my opinion on this subject. Most fair minded people would agree that a BA from the University Michigan, a Harvard Law School degree and a MBA from Kellogg School of Management would require a fair amount of intelligence. Several years of work in the role of being a sports agent and 17 years in FO roles is an impressive background for the position of GM. The reality of the FO is that our owner is one of the most hands on owners in all of baseball and that owner has a great deal of confidence in KW. Therefore any GM for this organization has to deal with that 3 headed monster. I believe that the last 4 seasons have given RH a bigger voice in the decisions we are discussing...how the rebuild is accomplished, trades, extensions, drafts and free agent decisions. Hahn's negotiated extensions on Eaton, Anderson, Sale and Q where excellent. The subsequent trades for top talent form the backbone of our period of contention. Top baseball people sing the praises of that group. I think the recent drafts of Madrigal & Vaughn are excellent with the Jury still out on Collins. The acquiring of Robert & Abreu are also great but perhaps less clear if all credit for those goes to Hahn or the 3 headed monster. RH is being held accountable for results as it should be but he operates under guidelines set by ownership of budget and many personnel decisions such as Cooper and maybe even Ricky. Although I understand the frustration of chasing top end free agent talent last offseason...I don't blame RH for making what they felt was their best effort and coming in second. It happens. I also try to remember that hindsight is 20/20. In hindsight Alonso was a disaster but none of us saw his performance coming when he was signed. Lastly I would like to say that many posters have pithy remarks of what other posters have to say. Try posting your own ideas of what should be done rather than shooting holes in others posts.

I would rather pay a great player like Rendon than get cute and force someone like Castellenos or someone else as a DH. I hate moving Moncada but reality is I want more elite players and Rendon is that.

I struggled to see why we should skip out on a very good hitter because of his handedness. He plays RF, albeit not very good. But then again, neither does Castellanos and people seem to like him enough.

Wake me up when it’s April

If Bradley goes away, BoSox might be looking at our man Engel.

This. Hahns hand will forever be tied to sitting at a Marshall’s clearance rack vs being able to spend like a major league team needs to do

Madrigal will be with us in 10 years when the others have moved on. He will be the next to sign an extension IMO.

Just seems like there are better ways to allocate the $250M. Don’t get me wrong - Rendon is a stud and I’d love to have him. But we have a budding star at 3B and a super duper interesting MLB ready 2B that legitimately oozes with all the things this team has sorely lacked FOR YEARS. I really don’t want to trade Madrigal.

Does he want to play 2B? Otherwise it’s a non starter for me, and likely the Sox. They aren’t going to jerk Moncada around again. Moncada is an elite defensive 3B. Leave him alone.

All he said is we're going to be active. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Odorizzi is nuts if he rejects the QO.

I think my method of operations on free agency this year would be to aggressively approach pitchers but sit back and let value come to me with fielders. Those Puig numbers aren't horrible. Maybe being around fellow countryman will inspire him to be his best or at least shame him into not being his worst. Giving him three years is a little concerning with his lack of dedication. Still, those three years are ages 28-30 where he should be his best.

Sox sign Ryu (4/$80), Hamels (2/$28), Harris (3/$33) and Grandal (4/$72). Sox trade Cease, Stiever, Rutherford and Collins to Boston for Betts and sign him to a 7 year, $200M extension.

Something to consider for an outfielder.

Lies

For me it's international. I am quite honestly much more upset with the 2019-20 intl class being so clearly bungled or deprioritized than screwing up last offseason. At least with player dev, though it is insane they didn't go crazy in spending on it when they decided to rebuild in 2017, it is clear they are trying to improve it to some average standard. With International, I'm not even sure if they are on that trajectory.

Yeah, the player dev angle is the one I’m most disappointed with. It isn’t that difficult to poach secrets from successful orgs — in fact I’ve been told it’s one of the things that those orgs worry about the most. All their hiring are public, you can physically see the facilities easily, and if you want, you can pretty much get any guy you want from the Astros/Yankees/etc. if you’re willing to give the person a big raise or promotion. The fact that the White Sox have objectively been one of the absolute worst at PD in an age where information is more freely available than ever speaks to some real troubling issues, whether it’s incompetence or a lack of willingness to invest.

I can't believe there are people like you out there that actually believe that he said that

You pretty much answered it in your last paragraph. He’s the name on the door, but a huge percentage of the decisions that lead to the success of the players are made by other people, and a huge percentage of the spending decisions that he directly handles are made by ownership. Rick Hahn’s personal skillset is just one of myriad factors that affect all the things in your OP. To be clear, in case you feel like I’m attacking your post personally, what I’m saying refers just as much to the original notion that Hahn being “smart guy” will make the team successful.

Said poster expressed optimism that Rick could take us to the next level due to his "intelligence" and I summarized the track record of the organization under Hahn's watch to serve as a counterpoint. What in the fucking world is bizarre about that? Are all smart people automatically good at their jobs? His track record suggests that's not the case, which is the point I was trying to make. I get you work in baseball in some capacity (minor league team?) and apparently know far more about how major league front offices work than the rest of us, so please enlighten on what Hahn is not responsible for in the OP? Is he not responsible for shaping the strategic direction of the organization with Jerry & KW? Is he not one of the most essential voices when it comes to free agents & trades? Does he not have direct oversight of the player development and scouting functions? No one said he's the only one responsible for our mess over the last years, but he's certainly one of the primary players and should no doubt be held accountable for our recent struggles.

It's not. Whether the ultimate goal is winning or not, he is signing free agents and trading for players he thinks can play. So many of these were just pissing away money. Jon Jay? Please. Alonso wasn't techinically a free agent, I guess that makes it even worse, but Yonder Alonso for $9 million? Really? Another trade, Nova, why $9 million on him? They spent $22 million on those 3. Why? What did they add to the rebuild? Why not spend it on 16 year old international guys and a bunch of lottery tickets? McCann was good for a losing team. Hopefully he can keep it up, and we can put him in Rick's win column. But If he snaps back to being what he was in 2020, not saying he will, and hoping he will not, is that a win when you are paying someone to be good on a bad team? Even with Abreu, he has spent over $250 million on free agents only to lose, lose, and lose some more. When he was "going for it", LaRoche? Trading for Samardijza? It's one colossal blunder after another. Even Robertson and Frazier, he salary dumped with Kahnle a guy they could still use, and got back a poor man's Ryan Sweeney who may never play in the major leagues.

White Sox should want no part of a 3/50 million reported deal that Jose is seeking. This is the modern MLB, not fifteen years ago where a deal like that would regularly happen. Sox tactically cratered Abreu's market with the qualifying offer, and would be smart to sit back and wait. No other club is going to give up the compensation and offer enough years and dollars that the Sox would not match if needed. Ideally we go year to year with Abreu moving forward. Anything beyond 2/30 would be a mistake.

He stinks like a Sox signing that fails miserably to me.

Will post a great quote from James vegan along that line: “Big signings — and certainly Machado’s and Bryce Harper’s deals — often get scrutinized for whether the production can strictly live up to the dollar value. But there’s far less discussion of the accumulated cost of mid- or low-tier signings and their potential to completely flop, from even a dollar standpoint, let alone a competitive one.“

2013-2016 were very, very different approaches than 2017-present. They didn’t fire the GM but they went in a completely different direction. I appreciate all the work that went into the original post, but adding up all the raw numbers from two completely different approaches (and two different cultures) feels wildly disingenuous to me. Tim Anderson, Yoan Moncada, Lucas Giolito, James McCann, Eloy Jimenez, and Luis Robert appear to be excellent acquisitions. The jury is out on Nick Madrigal, Zach Collins, and Andrew Vaughn. The 2017-present era feels much more like the 2011-2014 Astros to me. No it’s not a perfect analog, but the White Sox have been largely intentionally signing stopgap players waiting for key pieces to develop. I don’t think RH is a great GM but I do think based on the line we chose in late 2016 we need to see this through, and it still looks very promising to me based on the 6-7 really good young core pieces we have.

So if the GM doesn't make trades, sign free agents, and ultimately pull the trigger on draft picks, who does? Rick Hahn gets paid a lot of money to put his name on White Sox personnel decisions. Just because someone is very intelligent doesn't mean they have all the answers in baseball. There are plenty of guys in sports making decisions you wouldn't want taking the SAT for you, and plenty of guys you would want taking the SAT for you, you wouldn't want in Rick Hahn's position. You said the organization is a joke. What does that say about Rick Hahn, a guy for those 10-15 years who has been a lot closer to the top of the organizational chart than the bottom. I think they all have to go myself. The most bizarre thing was every bad move was a KW/JR decision, every good one a RH move of a couple of seasons ago. That seems to have gone by the boards, although there still seems to be a holdout or two.

Do you realize that two playoff teams had smaller payrolls than the white Sox did last year? Had he not been delusional and actually committed to giving the team the type of team building resources needed for teams with payroll restrictions (actually ... all teams really) he wouldn’t be in this position of questioning his usefulness. The Rays built a playoff team and number one farm system in baseball, and many of those pieces are from intl and drafts from 2013/14. Hahn had plenty of time to build an org that was strong from bottom up, but instead he went along with the cronyism of never firing anyone and let the boys who have been there forever just keep doin what they are doin.

I wish we had a real manager and real coaches because we do have some amazing raw talent. We also have holes that can bury us. it'd be nice to have some great manager figuring things out a bit.

Never heard of him, but he sounds more credible than an Australian baseball blogger.

Hey all, good to see this place has continued to be busy since ive been gone. Been a long year, got hit by a drunk driver on my bike that probably should have been the end of me, but the rehab has been long but productive and here I am checking in on you idiots. Sox take the central next year and Ill be there to watch it. Hope everyone is good. Word of advice to anyone who gets seriously injured, take the rehab seriously with tunnel vision. Just this morning I ran 3 miles sub 9 min on a leg that was shattered earlier this year. Attack that shit

Clearly this guy is a visionary genius.

Never heard of this guy but he said something good so I rate him as highly trustworthy in predictions

Let’s just sign Jose to a three-year contract already at $45M, $50M, whatever the hell it turns out to be, have a little love fest with the guy to start the offseason off on a positive note, and move on. Neither the length of, nor the money in, this contract is going to cripple this team in any way, shape, or form in either the near or long term future. Period. He’ll transition to DH at that time when appropriate, and that will be that. The clubhouse maintains its leader, and the organization keeps the face of the franchise. Win win all the way around.

The difference is those teams all had to start their rebuilds with primarily Top 10 draft picks. The Cubs were an exception. They already know had Baez, Rizzo and jump-started with Lester and Contreras lurking as a stealth future MVP candidate at catcher (who nobody knew much about.) But the Astros and Royals until the finishing touches like Cueto, Shields, Zobrist and Chapman were 70-80% constructed out of draft picks. If you take away having those three immensely-valuable contracts to trade (not to mention Frazier/Kahnle), the rebuild is basically Anderson, Rodon, Robert, Madrigal, Abreu and Vaughn...and is closer to being torn down and gutted than supplemented with free agents. Somehow, we’ve managed to turn one of the worst records in baseball over the past decade into a #21-24 farm system by mid season of 2020. And it’s certainly not because we’ve graduated multiple players from each draft class stretching from 2015-2018 into the major leagues.

correct. We are now slightly better than the worst franchise in baseball!

I feel like he was pretty hamstrung by Kenny for the first few years of his "GM" tenure, and the rebuild marks the time when he actually got to start doing what he wanted. In my view, Hahn's defining move is getting players to sign long-term deals early, which drastically raises their value. I'm happy with the young talent that he has acquired since the rebuild began. I was hoping the Sox would get Machado, but the fact of the matter is Moncada (in his breakout year) was pretty significantly better than Manny last year. Last season would have been early in a rebuild to start adding veterans, I think. Now that several of the young players have shown that they are good (potentially great) major league players, and a couple more are right on the cusp, the Sox know what areas need to be addressed via free agency. Jerry's track record is very poor in regards to free agents, but the White Sox have literally never been in this position, financially, so I'm giving him this winter to change his stripes. They could add three absolutely premiere FAs, and still only put themselves near 11th or 12th in payroll (where they were from '05 until the start of the rebuild). This is Hahn's one chance, though, in my eyes. This rebuild is his baby, I think. It's the first thing that doesn't feel like it has Kenny's fingerprints on it. I am very happy with the early returns on the added youth, but if the rebuild does not produce a multi-year playoff contender at some point, then Hahn has failed, and he must go. I think the "beginning of the end" of a GM's first attempt at a rebuild is a pretty slanted spot to judge him, statistically. But, of course, I am an optimist by nature.

We’ve reached peak offseason on SoxTalk. Pages and pages of mindless drivel for no real reason