Leaderboard

Hawk and TLR share that idea of TWTW trait a little too much....it couldn’t be because they are both past their times could it....shocker right there. If you are in the hawk, TLR and Dusty Baker let’s manage straight from the gut instinct it’s a hard pass for me with anyone with that mentality at that age. You have to have a good understanding of advanced stats and have that gut feeling from time to time. I feel like some of these stats for these older managers is the equivalent to teaching your grandparents how to use a computer or smartphone.

It's so hard. On one hand you have a survey of baseball executives and Hahns peers who do this job for a living, understanding his job in intimate detail. On the other hand this guy on the internet thinks we should hold 2013 against Hahn.

The Sox were showing us what a full season would look like when the season ended. It wasn't 95 wins.

Another person talking about "logic" who clearly doesn't understand it. You're suggesting our mindset should be to stay with the expectations on paper before the beginning of the season and ignore how things have actually been going accordingly? That's one of the most obtuse things I've ever heard in my life. So once they win some arbitrary amount of games we might have expected before the season we should just stop expecting wins and stop TRYING to win? Please don't talk about logic and fallacies because this post is such a bizarre violation of common sense it's staggering. We actually were in line to win the division. Our manager arguably cost us that, as well as good seeding. Who gives a fuck what people expected at the beginning of the season? Good Lord...

Robert doesn't really strike me as an analytical player. It really seems like he has no plan at the plate half the time. You'd think he'd lay off sliders 5 feet off the plate more if he was looking at how pitchers were attacking him. If he's trying to improve on that aspect, then that's great for him and this franchise. If he can just have good at bats 2/3 of the time, he's going to be extremely dangerous.

the fuck would he have to be bitter about? Good lord this dude quit on the team. The revisionist history around the end of his tenure is pointless. He's never managing in Chicago again and 99% he'll never manage anywhere again.

Ok, so the only thing we know for certain is that it won't be Hasler.

No, not really. A 2/3 IMO.

So La Russa, huh?

So your argument is that Forman is better because he destroyed the really good team he inherented? Yeah, I think you need to quit digging the hole you are already in. The comp was bad, but it got worse after you "explained " it. That is impressive. The gigantic hole in this is the last few years were full of losses on purpose. They rebuild to acquire tons of young talent. They did EXACTLY what they set out to do.

3 teams had playoff runs because of his contributions. What a guy

It is definitely LaRussa's job if he wants it.

To me it seemed like he swung through more fastballs in the zone than sliders off the plate in the second half of the season.

I know that most of you guys don’t trust what Not Steve Cishek throws out there anymore but thought I would share.

Unless Hinch has a guy that he can’t live without, I can’t imagine the list is longer than Matt Zaleski and Everett Teaford.

This right here is the problem. Stop arguing this argument right now. The thread is off the rails and you guys are arguing pedantic bullshit. It's over

So, was Renteria about to win manager of the year until he got let go?

My point is we shouldn't get over confident over this season. The record was very good but in a real season this team wins between 86 and 90 games imo, not the 96 they were on pace to do.

Yes, that they only played the Centrals (which, despite 7 playoff teams won a total of 2 playoff games) plus the Sox' poor record against those 7 playoff teams, leaves the true quality of this team an open question. On the Larussa matter, it's hard to reconcile front-office dissatisfaction with Renteria and Cooper not following analytics with looking at LaRussa for manager.

I love when someone thinks they're arguing intelligently but can only "prove" arguments using unproveable subjective claims, and can only "disprove" arguments using logical fallacies.

No, they are not. It's very simple, statistics aren't even necessary. You make bad decisions consistently, you will have bad results. You make good decisions consistently, you will have good results. A good result after a bad decision is fortunate but not commendable. A bad result after a good decision is of no fault. Renteria made abysmal decision after abysmal decision, game after game. As a result, we lost the division and 6 spots in seeding in a week. It is absolutely reasonable to pin that on Renteria because win or lose, he made constant bad decisions and therefore is to blame. By your rationale the manager is never at fault It's really very simple. This is 100% objective.

You didn't read what I said at all. There's no way for me to extrapolate what would have happened had Renteria not made bad decisions. Telling me I don't understand statistics because I can't extrapolate them from thin air is laughable to say the very least. The point was that putting your team in the best position to win is what dictates fault or not. If you put your team in a good position and they lose, it's not your fault. Again I ASK: do you understand this? If you seriously want to ask me for exact examples of Renteria failing to do that then we can be here all day.

Yes... so only the bad stretches show you what the future of a season looks like. The 20 of 25 stretch wasn't real, only the poor stretch was. SMH

If it's absurd, then please explain exactly to the tee what Renteria contributed. Because if my position is absurd, you will absolutely be able to give concrete examples. For all we know, Renteria lost the faith and admiration of all the players in the last couple weeks. Your logic seems to be that the manager absolutely must be credited with numerous wins but must not be blamed for numerous losses. You saying Renteria didn't cost them three to four losses is absolutely absurd because it's very clear that he cost them much more than that many. Sorry, but you're just wrong. Again, that Cleveland series is all anyone needs to disprove your ridiculousness. But there's far more examples than just those. I'm not sure if blind loyalty in delusion is your problem or just a lack of comprehension but you're way off base to say the very least.

He’s also the second in all time losses. https://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/ Jerry Reinsdorf is literally the only human being on Earth who believes Tony LaRussa’s coaching days are not over. Give me Norman Dale, please.

Could be your take, but regardless of Gar’s qualifications, he left with a winning overall record during his tenure, something Rick Hahn will almost assuredly never be able to accomplish due to his abominable first seven years. Time will tell whether Hahn will ever have a team advance in the playoffs. Still haven’t seen a valid reason why an executive of a 16 team playoff wild card team bounced immediately is worthy of “executive of the year” honours. Any credit for improvement should be weighed by the fact he was responsible for digging the gargantuan hole in the first place.

No, what's absurd is you thinking a team outperforming expectations has nothing to do with the manager at all and the ONLY impact a manager has on a teams success are the "negative" decisions you think he makes in a couple games; decisions that are at worst marginally worse, meaning sometimes they might even work out over the other one. This is where every single person making the same argument you've made lose there point. You want to give the players all the credit for their performance and record. The thing holding back this well oiled underrated monster is the coach... its illogical. The reason some of these guys prospered, developed and succeeded may have been due to the support and personality renteria had; the patience. The majority of a managerial impact is made off the field, before games, in the clubhouse, watching film.. it's not made in the 7th inning with a bullpen move. This is where the argument loses itself. Renteria was obviously a part of the reason the team performed well and developed. His shortcoming was when the stage got big, it became too big for him. He wasn't prepared for situations and he over managed. Bad combination. What he didn't do is cost the White Sox 3 or 4 wins, as so many here want to argue. Everything counts, not just the stuff that makes you irrationally angry as a couch coach. So yes, I've been called a defender for merely being rational. Renteria wasn't the right guy for the job. He also didn't cost them 3-4 wins.

He deserves it. 1.) His team made the playoffs which proves the Hahn-led rebuild is not a bust and will pay dividends. 2.) Some of the player he's acquired are bonafide superstar candidates (Robert, Moncada, Eloy, Kopech, TA, Vaughn) as well as a stud catcher (Grandal) and long-term solution at second base (Madrigal). Also he signed Abreu when he coulda let him walk or dump him. Sure he whiffed at the deadline. Sure his pitching staff was not championship caliber. So what? For now, he deserves that award.

I’d take a droid manager over Ricky. LaRussa here didn’t really say he’d the the analytics into account. Just gave a blanket statement that there’s too much analytics and not enough quantifying the analytics of what’s in a guys noggin, his heart, and most importantly in his guts. Had a little “only I have the secret and power to win the correct way” feeling to his words. And that he can win more games with any team doing it his correct way. Ease back on the ego trip a little bit there Tony. Seems like the game has passed him by. I wouldn’t mind him managing another team and eating my popcorn watching how that shit goes.

In other words, finally realizing the team’s place as the major market team that it is. Sign me up for that!

Oh Hell No. Bring me somebody from Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Houston or the LA Dodgers. Time to go new school. And I wouldn't stop there. The Sox need a complete marketing overhaul. I want the Sox to develop a global brand. Once they get new ownership I want them to go seriously after that entertainment $$. Relocated to the South Loop like they should have done when the late, great visionary Harold Washington first offered it. Give those tourists a choice of a 5 min cab ride or dealing with the madness of Clark and Addison. I want the Sox to be the preferred destination for attending Chicago MLB. It's game on.

It should go to the Rays GM. If I were Sox GM I would fake trade negotiations with the Rays just to see which guys on my farm they liked the most, then I would call off talks and keep those players, whatever their names were.

Very nice but I would have rather had a few more hits against the A's as I am sure he would prefer too.

You know what, Ray Ray, I’m out of line. I don’t know you so I shouldn’t have commented on your argument. Let’s move on

Sox were better than the A’s in my opinion. How many positions were the A’s better than the Sox? Sox just choked in game 3, end of story

The ideal model for this rotation will be proven excellence at the top and open spots at the back saved for the developement of our other players. We already have Keuchel as a depth piece even though he pitched like a top end guy this season. There should be an attempt to make one addition at the front end and then give Cease and Dunning a spot. Stroman and Bauer aren't really the ideal top end guys but they're good enough to slot in near the top of this rotation. Even if the idea is to one day trade Dunning, if you give him a full season to establish himself at the MLB level then maybe he could be a 1st piece or a big second piece in a deal next year. We really need to manage the pieces we are trading well. The farm system quality is going to drop off very fast after our top few guys and it's hard to replenish it while contending. If we manage things well, we should be able to smartly develop players and then trade others after they have proven to be MLB pieces for the chance to turn the window into a 6-8 year contention window instead of otherwise, which would be like a 3-5 year window only.

I absolutely think Renteria should have been fired because regardless of whether those decisions actually cost the Sox the games in question, they were by most experts in the game, egregiously bad managerial decisions. Yes, a manager often gets all of the blame and none of the credit. If Renteria wasn’t the manager for 2017-2020 would Anderson have developed as he did? Would Moncada have gotten on track? Would James McCann have blossomed into the player we know? Those are also subjective calls. I think Ricky was absolutely the right dude for a young developing team that needed to stay loose and roll with the punches to get into a position to win. He is absolutely NOT the right dude moving forward, because the margin for error in high leverage situations is razor thin, and he proved several times- in several seasons- that he was willing to make baffling, questionable, extremely high risk calls that often didn’t pan out. I think managers maybe make the difference in 2-3 wins a year. I just don’t trust Ricky to be on the right side of that with this team anymore. It doesn’t mean he’s not a good baseball man and it doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve another role somewhere else.

I love when someone attempts a soft landing and subsequent disappearance after failing to answer a simple, direct question.

Guy, I don't have a son. I was just messin' around. Lighten up, Francis. I presented my point multiple times; if you haven't grasped it yet, that's on you. Have a great weekend my man.

The numbers have done nothing but accelerate since school started, but that isn't the problem. Sure. Lol, right. People want to believe so bad they just buy anything. Literally every time we loosen restrictions and open up, numbers go back up.

I don't think so.

Is it accurate to say that AJ Hinch was not able to tell his players and coaches to stop cheating?

Fair point. I think Bochy would do a great job.

I’m in favor as long as he wears the 1983 windbreaker.

And let's be honest, it's much easier to send the manager packing rather than getting rid of your entire starting lineup.

I like rick and overall would give him a B+ in his tenure. His biggest success and impact has been getting multiple guys to sign team friendly extensions early. This paid huge dividends with sale and quintana and were the reasons that we got such a good package of prospects back. Hes done the same with tim, yo, eloy, and robert giving arguably the best core of position players to build around for the next 6 years. Trades at the major league level and free agency have been the biggest issues. Samardja, shields, and to an extent mazara turned out to be awful trades, and i think they made him gun shy this deadline to trade lower level prospects for help. Free agents have been a real mixed bag. Keuchel and yaz though have been good. Major bonus points for firing rickey too

After listening to the podcast with Stone (where Stone laid Renteria's shit bare) I don't see any way the Sox bring back Renteria. I would not want Getz promoted if that is what their thinking is. Getz reminds me of Ventura in some ways.

hopefully moving on from cooper and renteria and towards a coaching staff that embraces analytics and new age shit