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Thanks for setting expectations Jack. I definitely wouldn’t want any joy or optimism in my life and I know I can always count on you to enforce that.

I feel bad for people who couldn’t view soxtalk all day and see this thread had so many posts in it today, only to see the crap that’s been posted

Christ I must have missed him coming back. Glad we're all going to have our good taste of misery back in full swing on here.

I'm having trouble posting my Offseason Plan Project to SoxMachine, so instead of providing the link here, I'll just have to drop the whole damn novel. I stuck to their $170-$175M payroll limits. I had about $187M payroll because I wanted to keep Keuchel on the team, but in order to get down to under $175M, I had to last minute ditch him somewhere and then pick up pretty much any LHP for the rotation with the $4M I had left. I love Quintana but I truly don't think the Sox should bring him back, he just happen to fit that last minute adjustment. ------- The White Sox still have a kick-ass roster. As much as I know the Sox CAN rock a $200M payroll, and SHOULD, I'm mostly *mostly* respecting the payroll limits of this assignment. The real life White Sox should absolutely add a guy like Marcus Semien and still be able to get a decent RF and a reliable SP, and a couple more RP pieces. But I think we are all expecting them to set their sights a bit lower with something like Conforto for RF, some aging vet like the Gio Gonzalez signing for moderate insurance in the rotation, and some mixture of Engel/Sheets/Vaughn in RF with the hopes that Cespedes can be in the mix towards the end of the summer if he shakes the rust off in Birminglotte. I guess I'm aiming for somewhere in between the harsh negative reality and the "win the winter" joys of a blissful 2014 winter meetings that brought us so many headliners that I refuse to remind you of. Remember the 2020 Arizona Diamondbacks, when they had Ketel Marte AND Starlin Marte on the same team? And the "Marte Par-tay" was a fun little slogan they had for the duo? Probably not, because it was a flop; not for those players, but for the team. Everyone loves a sequel! Who says only Hollywood is out of new ideas? With that, let’s begin. ARBITRATION-ELIGIBLE PLAYERS Lucas Giolito ($7.9M): Tender Reynaldo López ($2.8M): Tender Evan Marshall: $2.3M: Non-Tender Adam Engel ($2.2M): Tender Brian Goodwin ($1.7M): Non-Tender Jimmy Cordero ($1.2M): Non-Tender Jace Fry ($1M): Non-Tender RIP, Burger + Fry + Colas. Maybe a minor league deal, with a side of cheese? CLUB OPTIONS Craig Kimbrel ($16M – $1M buyout): Already Picked Up César Hernández ($6M): Already Declined (Though I would’ve picked it up for backup plan at 2B, and traded him by ST if I successfully upgraded 2B by then) OTHER IMPENDING FREE AGENTS Leury García (Made $3.5M in 2021): Let Go, FINALLY Carlos Rodón ($3M): Already Let Go The lack of a Qualifying Offer was ridiculous to me, but I can only assume based on that shocking decision and Hahn's coded language since then, that they are not excited about Rodon's health, or at least not confident that he can patchwork together another 130 innings in 2022. Billy Hamilton ($1M): Let Go Honestly I love this dude and hope he sticks around on a MiLB deal. He's so fun to watch. Ryan Tepera ($950K): Will Re-Sign Dude was just nails. Come on home, Ryan. FREE AGENTS OF Starling Marte (3 Years, $57M + 4th Year Option for $11M or $3M buyout): Effectively a 3 yr/$60M deal or a 4 yr/$68M deal. Risky money to give a 33-year-old, sure, but Marte has been consistently well above average before exploding for a career year last year at age 32. From 2013 to 2021, age 24 to 32 seasons, Marte has put up fWAR seasons like this, based off 150/gm rates.... 2013 - 4.8 2014 - 5.0 2015 - 3.2 2016 - 4.3 2017 - 2.7 2018 - 3.7 2019 - 3.4 2020 - 3.2 2021 - 6.8 Marte ended his unbelievable 2021 campaign not only hitting a very sexy .308, but with a career high .381 OBP. His modest walk rates in the 5% range climbed to over 8% this season while maintaining his sub 20% strikeout rate that he's kept below that number since 2014. Marte would play RF for this team, which is kind of funny that he would play next to Luis Robert considering I think of Marte as an older version of Luis Robert. Similar skill sets, with Robert likely possessing more power, but Marte being the better base stealer. To that point, Marte swiped 47 (!!!) stolen bases this season, the 3rd time he's gone over 40 SB on a year. Even sexier? He was caught just 5 times, going 23 for his first 23 when he joined Oakland. This probably goes without saying, but Marte is a very good defensive player too. While playing LF in Pittsburgh he had 3 seasons out of 4 where he had 16 or more DRS, topping out at 21 DRS in 2015. While he was a full-time LF, in 2013-2017, he led all LF in baseball in DRS with 66, more than Alex Gordon who had 50. For whatever reason that hasn't translated over to CF quite as well, where he has been a negative DRS for 3 straight years since he moved there. Statcast however says he's above average in CF. In any case, he will be playing RF in Chicago. RHP Ryan Tepera (2 Years, $8M): Tepera, former top-10 MVP vote-getter, was awesome for the Sox in 2021. He was also awesome for the Cubs in 2021 and pretty good for them in 2020 as well. His issues in the past have been walks and HRs. Incredibly frustrating things to see a RP allow. But in 2021 he improved both drastically. He cut his career HR rate in half and shaved more than 20% off of his BB/9. He did just turn 34 a couple of weeks ago, so the money shouldn't be much here, plus we can already scratch Houston off the list of available suitors. RHP Collin McHugh (2 Years, $12M): McHugh was a pretty good starter in Houston before becoming a pretty good reliever in Houston before becoming a CHEAT CODE in Tampa. He and Blake Treinen lead baseball in reliever fWAR for non-closers. A 1.8 fWAR in 64 innings with a K/BB over 6. Like Tepera, he's 34, but this team will need to replace 3-4 RPs and this will have to be somewhat of an overhaul area given my future moves. LHP Aaron Loup (1 Year, $5M): Loup is going to fill the vacated lefty RP role that I am going to create later in this plan. Loup had an awesome season with the Mets, and does a good job getting out righties, so he's not a "oh crap he has to face 3 hitters" type of lefty out of the pen. And you'll never guess how old he will be at the start of 2022..... Just guess.... 34!! Wheeeee! LHP Jose Quintana (1 Year, $4M): Because my initial plan was over budget, I had to last minute find a deal for move Keuchel for relief. That then left a hole in my rotation and with 2 lefties leaving the rotation, I felt I needed to add in a lefty to the mix. Time to finally bring our sweet boy Q back home where he belongs. In all reality, I could see this spot used as some sort of mix of Quintana, McHugh, Lopez, and Steiver to get by. Also, the bullpen is extremely deep if bullpen days are necessary. TRADES Let me preface my trades by saying I spoke with multiple writers/podcasters who are fans of both Arizona and Toronto to work out these trades. Players were tweaked from my initial ideas to fit what those fans thought made more sense for what they wanted or would they would give up. I thought it was important to not just view these from one side. 1) White Sox acquire 2B/OF Ketel Marte from the Arizona Diamondbacks for P Garrett Crochet, SP Jared Kelley, 3B Jake Burger, and OF Benyamin Bailey Well, you already knew by the title and intro that this was going this way. I've been clamoring for the Sox to trade for Ketel Marte ever since Madrigal got hurt. My thought was to play Marte at 2B for the remainder of 2021, and then move him to RF in 2022 when Madrigal returned. Obviously, and sadly, Madrigal won't be returning, so now 2B is free and open. 2B is Marte's far better defensive position anyway, but can move to corner OF if needed. He's a plus defender at 2B and can hang at SS too. Marte just turned 28 years old, and as a switch hitter he kind of feels like the player we want Yoan Moncada to be, or thought he would be, especially when he too played 2B. Marte is likely a 4-ish fWAR guy going forward. He's a 25 HR threat who will hit around .300+, walk at a solid 8%+ rate and rarely strike out twice as often. He has a career K% of under 15% while posting two different seasons of 139 wRC+ and 149 wRC+. Sandwiched in between those was a poor 2020 season, that I'm willing to chalk up to a weird Covid season for a ton of guys. Marte has spent the majority of his career batting 2nd and if it wasn't for Starlin Marte on this team, that is exactly where he would bat for the 2022 White Sox. Instead he will hit towards the middle-to-bottom, which is an incredible testament to this lineup. Marte has 3 years left on his deal for an extremely affordable $30M. He will get paid $8M in 2022, then $10M, then $12M, the last 2 years being club options in case of a disastrous turn. For the Arizona side of this trade, they get a very exciting arm in Crochet. I truly believe that Crochet is just not a good fit for this current team where they are. He needs to be given a chance to start and the Sox don't have the luxury to send him back down to AAA and stretch out and hope he can get a spot in the rotation in 2023, pitching 130 innings or so. Arizona has that time on their side. Plus the idea of a tall lanky lefty who can pump 102 MPH from a crossfire delivery just might arouse their imaginations a bit. I love me some Jakey Burgs. Absolutely hate to mock him in to any trades but the harsh reality is that he just doesn't have a spot in this organization. Arizona, however, doesn't have a 3B right now. Fangraphs has Josh Rojas projected for 3B, but Rojas played more 2B, SS, and LF than he did 3B in 2021. Burger fills a hole, or at least adds to competition. Their GM Mike Hazen recently said one of their primary goals this off-season is finding a young controllable 3B. The Burger and Beer dream will live on in Phoenix. Jared Kelley has had a pretty bad start to his pro career for the Sox, but the Dbacks might do well buying low on a former top-20 draft talent from 2020. Still a live arm with a lot of time on his side to get his body back in shape. Bailey is a nice young player that scouts and evaluators love to pick as a sleeper prospect in this system. He's a guy the Sox don't want to move, but can't let hold up a trade either. 2) White Sox trade CL Craig Kimbrel to Toronto for C Reese McGuire, SS Rikelbin De Castro (FG #11), and RP Jackson Rees (FG #21) We know Jerry doesn't like to waste money, and he won't here. Toronto needs bullpen help and they have some money to spend. Jordan Romano was very good for Toronto last season as their primary closer, but he is far less entrenched in that role than Liam Hendriks, so Kimbrel would take the closing duties for a year in Toronto while Romano takes the 8th inning role. The Jays are a natural fit here not only because they need RP help, and have money, but because they have a glut of 3 decent catchers, with their #1 prospect, also a catcher, about to join the fray. In discussing with Jays fans, they basically put equal value on catchers McGuire and Danny Jansen. I ultimately chose McGuire for the role of backup catcher for the Sox due to his left-handed bat, being known for his defense, and for having an above-average arm to control the opponent running game, a glaring weakness for the Sox. McGuire also ranks around top 10ish in catcher framing as well. Anything he adds with the bat, which seems to be better in the Majors than when he was a prospect, will just be gravy. Rikelbin De Castro is a SS that is turns just 19 in a couple of weeks. He is so raw and new as a recent 2019 international signee that the internet can't even agree on how to spell his name yet. Fangraphs scouts him as a current 60 grade runner with 60 grade FV on his glove. He's known as a slick defender with smooth contact skills and legit gap power. Jesse Sanchez of MLB.com said of him, "He is a high-energy athlete with an impressive set of tools across the board. De Castro is slender, but he’s strong. He’s a prospect with good hands, solid footwork, speed and a high baseball IQ." He's essentially a lottery ticket type prospect. RP Jackson Rees is someone who came out of no where as a complete non-prospect to have an utterly dominant 2019 season. In 39 appearances, Rees would craft a 0.73 ERA across two different A leagues, finishing the season with 88 strikeouts, 15 walks, nine saves, and a 0.892 WHIP over 61.2 innings of work. Rees only pitched 2 innings in 2021 before needing TJS. He had the surgery in June, so he will likely not be back until 2023 when he be 28 years old and likely pushed to the majors sometime that summer. He's just a throw-in RP worth taking a chance on in case his 2019 was him unlocking something and he's someone the Jays won't lose sleep over either. 3) White Sox trade SP Dallas Keuchel, Zack Collins, and $3M to the St. Louis Cardinals for OF Patrick Romeri (FG #27) I'll be honest, I got to the end of this thing thinking I was going to be able to not move Keuchel and still stay around $170-175M. I was wrong. In order go get down in that range I needed to find a place for Keuchel and my initial thought was to find a team with good defense that could benefit from his groundballs, and he could benefit from not having to complain about bad defense or shifting behind him. Going home to Houston was something I found plausible until I realized their rotation is full. Cardinals seem to have a spot potentially at the end of their rotation, and health concerns with other members of it. Romeri is a 20-year-old kid who drafted in the 12th RD in 2019 from the fabled IMG Academy prep school. He's got average tools across the board and FG says he should stick in RF and showed stand-out exit velocities in the GCL. He's just a warm body who is young enough to roll the dice on. SUMMARY I prioritized athleticism and defense here. Marte and Marte are both plus defenders. McGuire is a plus catcher, framer, and thrower. I left the rotation mostly in tact, and added a few bullpen arms. Here’s how I’d line the team up on Opening Day 2022: Projected Lineup: (R) Tim Anderson (SS): $9.5M (R) Luis Robert (CF): $6M (S) Starling Marte (RF): $19M (R) Ketel Marte (2B): $8M (S) Yasmani Grandal (C): $18.25M (R) Jose Abreu (1B): $19.7M (S) Yoan Moncada (3B): $13.8M (R) Eloy Jimenez (DH): $7.3M (R) Andrew Vaughn (LF): $575K Projected Bench: (L) Gavin Sheets (1B/DH): $575K (L) Reese McGuire (C): $575K (R) Adam Engel (OF): $2.2M (R) Romy Gonzalez (UTIL): $575K Projected Rotation: (R) Lucas Giolito: $7.9M (R) Lance Lynn: $18.5M (R) Dylan Cease: $575K (L) Jose Quintana: $4M (R) Michael Kopech: $575K Projected Bullpen: (R) Matt Foster: $575K (R) Jose Ruiz: $575K (R) Reynaldo Lopez: $2.8M (R) Collin McHugh: $6M (L) Aaron Loup: $5M (R) Ryan Tepera: $4M (L) Aaron Bummer: $2.5M (R) Liam Hendriks: $13.3M TOTAL PROJECTED SALARY: $175M $5M over the $170M target seems reasonable enough for me to stop pulling my hair out over how I can afford the Marte Bros. without having to gut the bullpen I created. I am happy that I was able to balance out the lineup by adding another lefty force, switch-hitting Ketel Marte, while also improving the team defense and speed. McGuire is a for sure improvement over Collins, and Starling Marte is a massive improvement over whatever the hell you want to call RF last season. This offense is quite ridiculous. On the pitching side I feel like I did a good job rebuilding the bullpen. The Sox bullpen was likely going to lose Kopech, Kimbrel, Tepera, and Marshall from 2021. I brought back Tepera, and then added reliable veterans like McHugh and Loup to help stabilize the pen. Moving Kimbrel paid for all of those guys, plus some. The weakness here, and I'm guessing the weakness most of these OPPs will have is the Rotation. It's hard to replace an ace like Carlos Rodon, and also be forced to pretty much give away Dallas Kuechel and still replace them and upgrade elsewhere. I feel even if the target payroll was just as high as $180M, I would have felt better about getting someone more reliable than Jose Quintana to slot in to that #4 spot. My theory is the Sox should be constructing themselves more for the 2022 playoffs than the 2022 regular season. Keep Kopech fresh enough all year that he still has innings to give in October. If they can get that far, then 3 or 4 starters is all they need for a playoff series and Quintana just becomes a bullpen guy at best. I've spent consecutive nights up until 3 am now doing research for and creating this, but it's always super fun to do them and see how hard these are when there isn't a PS5 controller in my hand. Look forward to hearing feedback and getting a chance to see how many of us had similar thoughts. I tried not to skim too many other OPPs for fear of influence, but if White Sox twitter has told me anything, it's that the group think can sometimes be too Conforto for comfort.

A lot of this low diversity hirings happen unconsciously. People say "the best guys rise to the top" but business owners are people too and they have biases. Some of those owners might be racist but even those who are not really racist still have biases and when in doubt they will subconsciously trust people that are like them too. That applies to race, gender and even just socioeconomic background (a white man from a "bad family" or poor background is unlikely to make it either). This is what diversity is about. It is about race but also about opening up for just people from a different background, many business owners do limit themselves by always picking people that are like themselves. There are even some studies suggesting diversity will improve decisions because by bringing in people from different racial, gender and social backgrounds you will get a greater diversity of ideas too. Not every of those ideas will be good and those non diverse hires are good at their job too but their similar background limits the kind of life experiences they have and in turn often their ideas and solutions will be similar.

We need a rumor ASAP to save this thread!

I stuck my neck out for you Parkman. I put my reputation on the line here - don't ruin it for me.

Wow, this conversation is still going huh. Look, if some of you enjoy factually stating exactly how the offseason will play out instead of letting it play out, fine. Not my thing, but fine. But to be bothered that others aren't doing the same? Like, who cares? The need for some to be the smartest person in the room takes so much joy out of this board, and the internet in general.

I like Kenny a little more after his statement. I like being a Sox fan a little more when I realize the number of barriers the organization has broken.

Is what's going to happen on his reply

I don't think I'm being all that pessimistic. The Sox don't participate in the top of the free agent market. I think any of the tier B and lower FA are attainable. I don't understand what is so controversial about suggesting that the Sox won't be signing players like Seager, Correa and Scherzer.

Smh, uncalled for

All right, I'm trying to work with you Jack. You picked one point to argue - you may think that you're building a case, but you argued that one point, then went to the separate data point. That's what moving the goalposts means. What frustrates people is that you start an argument at Point A. They argue against it. Then you move onto Point B, C, D and E. To you, they're all data points supporting Argument A. The problem is, no one else was ever arguing B, C, D, or E until you moved it there, so it only appears that your argument is defeated, so you just move the argument until you are correct.

If you remember the negotiations, I don't ever think the Sox had the top offer for Machado. They wanted Machado, but they wanted him on their terms. I do not think they offered Machado the $250M contract until he already had the $300M offer from the Padres.

Oh come on, Villar and bullpen pieces is incredibly realistic

That way we could have annual $28 mil in two catchers and $30 mil in two closers. LOL!

So, this is great in a vacuum but it's also a very white thing to say. Fact is, you (just like most) have inherent biases and those biases easily infiltrate the concept of "best hire" to be one of someone who looks most like you. There have been tons of studies done on this. I think Williams brings up a great point; for minority candidates they are often times discredited for not having enough experience, but a ton of white people get a shot with very little experience at all. Executive level positions in this country, in general (beyond just baseball) do not break down racially or gender-wise with either general population racial/gender identities or college education racial/gender identities. That alone should tell you that the "best candidate" is passed over time and time again. Hell, women are still under paid, as are many minorities, in comparison to their equal-footed peers.

Wait, Semien isn't 29? I thought he was, that's why I thought he'd get $200M

Name one person who suggested Seager & Correa?

Lolol I can't he'll myself. Nvm~

Conforto went quickly from dumpster diving acquisition to more than 19 million a year

Broke my thumb scrolling so fast

Welcome to Soxtalk!

I hate to kind of, sort of agree with Jack here. But really - the Sox hard offer of $250 mil + a bunch of incentive money that was unlikely to ever be achieved, just wasn't an offer that was going to get Manny signed. At the end of the day, I felt like the Sox pursuit of him was a bunch of hot air. And all the while, Rick Hahn kept spewing crap about the Sox having a seat at the table, as if us fans were supposed to feel good about that. It was weird.

Jack, please don’t take this the wrong way, but you’ve clearly never had a normal corporate job. No company in their right mind thinks leading on their customers in a good business strategy. Like I’d be fired at my job on the spot if I proposed something so dumb.

Where as your contributions are raising the quality of the board? Are you serious?

Nah - this one has at least another 200 pages of life in it… at least.

You honestly believe they wasted resources that they could have used doing literally anything else that winter to help the team, so they could somehow win a PR campaign by intentionally failing AND you still call yourself a fan of a team that you believe would do that. I just need to not respond.

Because you complain about something. You're proven that your complaint is wrong. Then you adjust it slightly. Then your complaint is still wrong. Then you adjust it again. Then your complaint is right, but only after changing the complaint from the original topic. You said they never led the Machado bidding, which they did. Now it's they never signed a 9 figure contract. You moved the arguments until you were right, aka moving goalposts.

Please explain how I'm moving goalposts? First off I don't understand the concept. The Sox have never signed a 9 figure contract yet. They offered one to Wheeler and it wasn't accepted. Until they actually get one done, I think it's unreasonable to expect one.

Saying agree to disagree is a cop out. You really really need to stop moving the goal posts. They were absolutely serious in acquiring him. Whether they had the right offer for it is another story entirely. Why the mods decided to torture us all this offseason and unban you is the real mystery.

Conforto could easily become the highest paid player in Sox history. Just stop

Yeah if people consider Conforto dumpster diving, then they’re bound to hate this offseason

Nah Correa is gone, but I would worry that they might go after Semien. Astros are going to be loaded beyond belief though.

Racial preference in hiring and racism in general persist. I lived through the era of 100% racially segregated neighborhoods and public schools in Chicago when whites opposed and protested against affirmative action and school busing. Nothing much has changed since then. Justin Fields football helmet calls out to "End Racism." However, I doubt that happens for another 100 years or more. Maybe never. Yea, yea, the best person should be hired for the job and no one should get any special treatment regardless of race, slavery and racism ended with the Civil War, I am not a racist.... This straddles the line here between politics and baseball, but I think it is safe to say that whatever one's opinion is on minority hiring, no one, including Kenny Williams, is going to change your mind.

To me, left-handed power bat and TOR starter are my 1A & 1B. The reality is we’re one injury away from having 3/5 of our rotation composed of two guys on innings limits in Dallas & Michael (one of whom was horrible) and a guy who probably came close to getting DFAed last year in Lopez. Even with a great offense and in a week division, I’m not sure that rotation gets you to the postseason.

I’ve always believed that NSC and Portillo’s occasionally get some second hand info, but greatly exaggerate what they actually know (which is very little). I don’t recall having a lot of faith in Al’s and it’s pretty clear he stole most of his shit from Soxtalk or other people on Twitter. Regardless, anyone making a dumb pun-based Twitter account is almost certainly a fraud at this point and can be ignored IMO. Honestly, I put more stock to a wild rumor if someone is willing to put their name to it then hide behind a stupid food based handle.

Is there a German word for the feeling when caulfield picks up the argument you were making and runs with it and the terror and shame

I was just on MLBTR the other day and thought it said he was 29......I must have been looking at the wrong line. My bad. I still think he's going to get $150M+ though.

C A B All good offseasons

Option B but barely because of Bassit. My A scenario would be Lopez replacing DK as 5th starter with an upgrade at the trade deadline if needed. Anything less than Bassit as a SP and I'm going option A with Lopez.

And this was because they talked to Machado for months? Lol, you can't seriously think Sox fans are that dumb.

Why can't people just approach the offseason however they want?

Astros will find a way to keep Correa too, this is pretty frustrating, know it’s super early in the offseason but Sox need to make a big move on offense (not named Conforto) and in the rotation

None of these new accounts think they have sources, they are doing this for attention and you are giving it to them. Orlando literally parlayed all the Soxtalk attention given to the Al’s Cheesy Beef account into a legit Twitter following. At least with NSC & Portillo’s, they at least got something right at one point in time (still mostly frauds IMO). I’d advise against enabling more of these copycat accounts that clearly are fake.

"Montas wasn’t directly traded from Chicago to Oakland like Bassitt was, but he was dealt to the Los Angeles Dodgers as part of a three-team deal with Cincinnati that netted Chicago third baseman Todd Frazier. Montas would later be traded to Oakland, along with Jharel Cotton, for Rich Hill and Josh Reddick." I guess both teams came out okay because Hill was solid for the Dodgers, but LA would have been better off holding on to the much cheaper Montas. Frazier and company netted us a return that looked okay on paper but clearly didn't turn out that way.

A dolphin...a dolphin is not a fish.

Trout to the Sox - book it haha

This is huge. I hadn't read the article, but this is as big of a change as has happened with the Sox in a really, really long time.