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Showing content with the highest reputation on 12/20/2021 in all areas

  1. So about Kelenic's -0.7 WAR in 93 games...?
    6 points
  2. Oh wow, thank you so much for telling us all what the real narrative is. I root for labor in negotiations. It's not a difficult concept to understand. I root for Kellog workers, truckers, starbucks, amazon and baseball players all the same. Every fight won by labor is a fight won by the guys who deserve a larger piece of the pie IMO. It's really as simple as that. I care about teachers unions, nurses unions, warehouse unions, trucking unions. I don't stop caring about the fight for greater workers rights, protections, and earnings because the earnings are more than I make. You're either pro-union or you're not. It's really that simple. There's actually nothing more absurd than telling someone else what they should and shouldn't care about under the guise that they're "too stupid" to understand what is "actually" happening.
    5 points
  3. I’m sorry, this subject tilts me when people start getting righteous in either direction, It makes absolutely zero sense to give a shit about this on an emotional level. The very concept of “are you for the owners or for the players? Are for the millionaires or for the billionaires??” is insultingly childish and should be beneath all of us. There is NO moral high ground here. These are two extremely wealthy, extremely prepared private interest groups engaged in pushing their own interests as far as they can possibly push them. They do not care about you AT ALL. They do not care about fairness; they do not care about morals. They are both simply trying to take as much of the “pie” as they can. There is nothing moral or ethical about it, and they will make no concessions for your interests whatsoever. The fan matters only to the extent that it affects the negotiation. If you find yourself being appealed to by either side, understand that, EVERY TIME, the side you’re hearing from is trying manipulate you for leverage. It is cringey af to act like your stance on this says something about your virtues. Why would you even HAVE a stance? These are two departments in an entertainment mogul trying to decide how to divide YOUR money. “Labor vs. the man”? GMAFB. This is like virtue signaling in favor of car salesmen vs. car manufacturers. Who would ever give a shit about that that wasn’t directly involved? Please, for the sake of humanity, have more self respect than that. Everyone involved in this in this negotiation is living better than you and has everything they need to ensure they’ll keep doing so, however the chips fall. And if you read this and find yourself angry at me for not understanding or respecting the “greater narrative” about the importance of labor unions, get back to me when you start giving a shit about teachers unions, or nurses unions, or any other group that is actually important and could actually use the support of your moral outrage.
    4 points
  4. This is where I'm at. I'm going to side with labor on principle, but this is a fight that is so inconsequential to labor issues that actually, y'know, matter and affect people that are legitimately disadvantaged so it's more of a just figure it out thing for me.
    4 points
  5. Here’s another way to look at it: I think many would agree with me that one of the largest issues facing our nation today is the vastly widening “wealth gap.” Every cent the players wrest from the owners widens the wealth gap. The “pie” that the owners/players are fighting over is the liquid operating revenue of each franchise. They are NOT fighting over the masses of illiquid wealth and equity that the owners hold. An increase in the percentage of the operating revenue that goes to the players is a decrease in the percentage of the revenue that goes to paying for everything that makes the game happen, which includes the money that pays for the salaries of every worker in the organization. I can tell you, firsthand, that the teams will not operate beyond their means for any significant period of time. I can also tell you, firsthand, that the bottom line is a direct input on the available player payroll in a given year. If the operating revenue is lower in favor of the player payroll, this means fewer seasonal workers, fewer salaried benefits, fewer infrastructure investments (which puts franchise money into the hands of local businesses), etc. Note that I am NOT defending ownership with this argument. I’m simply illustrating that a “win” for the players union is not a “win for labor” in the sense that people imagine it is. I am all for supporting better wealth distribution in this country. Wealth distribution between one-percenters is NOT that. Narratives that make the financial “struggles” of one-percenters seem like the struggles of the average person are PR campaigns.
    2 points
  6. For the people on their high horse supporting the MLBPA, just know this is a group who cares about nothing but getting more money for its existing members. Why bump up the minimum salary when the vast majority of current players are off their rookie contracts? Who cares about the poor minor leaguers who sleep six deep in a rundown apartment unit and have to eat KFC and Domino’s seven days a week. And fuck those poor LatAm kids who have to be subjected to disgusting predatory practices when the MLBPA can ensure that Max Scherzer is able to buy a few more Lambo’s. No matter how you want to slice it, this is a fight between millionaires and billionaires. Sure, the players probably deserve a larger share of the pie, but anyone losing an ounce of energy over this has all the wrong priorities in life. Neither the owners or the MLBPA could give a fuck about the customers, minor leaguers, or non player personnel. As such, people like Parkman & Ray Ray taking a hard side in a fight between the rich and the super rich is absolutely hilarious.
    2 points
  7. The players do not need our sympathy and the owners do not deserve it.
    2 points
  8. As some point though, it really doesn't matter if you're a billionaire, or you simply have enough money to do whatever you want the rest of your life. I know most want to leave their kids something, their grandchildren something., and many players if not most, will be able to do that even if they "retired" at 35. The fact is, we are the stooges. We throw money at both the owners and the players. We don't retire at 35. We don't complain we have to make a few lifetimes of what most who really fund this endeavor for 6 months of work. All to be enertained. And when they can't decide how to split the money we throw at them, the entertaining stops. Maybe it's time the fans looked at themselves in a mirror. Both parties suck in many ways.
    2 points
  9. Of course, they would honor the picket lines Texsox. The players are the little guys well deserving of our support. The owners are the bad guys deserving of our scorn. This is true of all employees and all owners.
    2 points
  10. I don't base my actions in life on the choices others make. I'm sure, just as exists in any workforce on the planet, there are people who wouldn't and people who would. In large groupings of people you will find diverse opinions.
    2 points
  11. We do know that teams can make money without having great attendance. Profits come from media contracts and corporate sponsorships more than ticket revenue. So, a team can make money without putting out a winning product. Their risk has to be lower. Jerry Reinsdorf was part of an investment group that purchased the controlling interests from Bill Veeck for about $20 million. Reinsdorf, as I understand it, didn't put in anywhere near the $20 million. I think he got a pretty good return on his investment. Corporations like baseball franchises get plenty of help from governments and taxpayers. There are tax abatements. Improvements in the infrastructure. In the case of the White Sox, a new stadium that has now been in existence for over 30 years. I realize how crazy salaries are, but it is hard for me to cry for the owners. They get plenty of help along the way that an everyday person will never get. The goal should be a fair contract with no games lost in the season. I have no sympathy for a goal of crushing the players' union.
    2 points
  12. It's funny no one brings up the fact Vaughn was a 0.3 WAR player in 127 games. If he wore different laundry it would be evidence that he sucks but he wears White Sox laundry so it gets explained away. The truth is he's a limited player. He's a right handed hitting 1B. He's a bad outfielder and just because he didn't end up like a flounder in a net doesn't make him good. He's slow, he gets bad jumps, takes poor routes and his arm is well below avg. He's a bat only player. Now it's a really good bat but there are other players with really good bats who also provide positional value so proposing they trade Vaughn isn't some crazy off the wall suggestion and it's not like people didn't say this situation could occur when he was drafted.
    2 points
  13. Someone get this guy some water, bootlicking is a a tough job. I'm sure later he is gonna need some Tylenol for offering his back for them to stand on, those poor, poor, rich billionaires
    2 points
  14. Anyone compare their net worth year to year? This was the biggest percentage increase I've had in my lifetime. Between home prices in my area and stock prices in my managed funds, it was a very good year. If I hadn't decided to begin some trading on my own it would have been a little better. So thank you previous administration for pumping so much money into the economy and thank you current administration for lowering my blood pressure.
    1 point
  15. Sure, fire Nagy. That will fix everything, all of the underlying issues!
    1 point
  16. Imagine the White Sox beginning the 2022 season with Madrigal as the starting 2nd baseman and Kimbrel off the roster. Oh well.
    1 point
  17. The whole relationship between MLB and minor leagues is weird. I'm certain Barons owner Don Logan doesn't want MLB dictating what he has to pay his players. I doubt he can afford the level most fans, myself included, believe those guys should be earning. I also doubt all those MiLB owners want to sell their teams. All MLB really needs is a place for their draft picks to go and kill time until they are needed, if ever. Why have players under any MLB team's grasp if they aren't on a MLB 25 man roster? I'd like to explore stopping affiliates. MLB teams draft players and either put them on the 25 and pay them or they get cut and become free agents and can go play anywhere. Let the player cut the best deal. Instead of a team holding him back in AA if he can find a AAA that will employ him, he can go. Make every baseball team independent. The MLB draft become five rounds and after that everyone else is a free agent, eligible to sign with any team. Put another way, imagine if in June the team needs a right fielder ( easy I know) now imagine a world without affiliates. The best right fielder in AAA could be signed regardless of where he's playing. Why have talented players held back?
    1 point
  18. Where do you get that I am bitter about any of it? I have a very strong opinion that the players and owners already make ridiculous money and they will continue to do so. If the players achieve major concessions from the owners it will be the fans that pay those higher costs.
    1 point
  19. Sorry. The owners screw over taxpayers while pocketing huge profits in a protected monopoly. They should be required to pay back any economic incentives they received from profits when selling the team. The folks that deserve the biggest raises aren't a part of these negotiations. They are the office workers, stadium crew, sub contractors, etc. The second most deserving group are the fans that pay for all this. When elephants fight it's the grass that gets trampled. You missed my posts where I said I don't care which side wins, they both suck.
    1 point
  20. I have a few problems with this argument. First, your last paragraph aims this screed at people who "care" about the MLBPA's interests but don't "care" about those of teachers and nurses. Fair point -- those people are awful hypocrites. But who exactly are these monsters, and how many of them are there? Probably not too many. I haven't seen anyone on this board express this sentiment anyway. Same goes for the implication that pro-labor hearts are somehow bleeding for millionaire baseball players. I think everybody understands that these guys are (mostly) very wealthy and privileged in the extreme, and I don't think any reasonable person "cares" on an emotional level about pro athletes' ability to afford a larger mansion in the way they "care" about a teacher's ability to achieve a decent quality of life (though I do think people often overlook many MLB players impacted by these negotiations whose playing careers do *not* give them generational wealth). Lastly, I think that suggesting someone cannot take a principled stand on a negotiation simply because the parties are motivated by their respective economic self-interest kind of misses the point. *All* labor vs. management fights involve parties pressing their economic self-interest, not just this one. Parties aren't willingly giving up ground based on pure altruism in too many labor negotiations (maybe teachers' unions do). People who root on labor don't do so because they think unions are "nicer" during negotiations, (they shouldn't be - that's why workers have unions!) they do so because they think that gains by labor contribute to the greater public good in a way that management victories do not. Now I think most would concede that the outcome of the MLB negotiation will far have less impact on the public good than negotiations involving teachers and nurses, but imo it's not irrational to take a consistent, principled pro-labor stance on all negotiations , including in professional sports.
    1 point
  21. Here's what I don't understand. How do they know it is going to make them a ton of money when it's sold? It's a business. If it's almost impossible to make money until the business is sold, it's not going to keep increasing in value, especially not at the rate it is increasing. I will believe they are struggling financially when one team is actually forced to either sell or go out of business because business is so bad.
    1 point
  22. But this completely ignores the actual profits they have also generated on the ball club in that time. This is just raw investment to invest worth ignoring $$ and profits generated over that same 41 year window.
    1 point
  23. Yeah, if we were talking about vendors and event staff I'd be singing a different tune. The only thing that has me in the players corner at all is athletics and entertainment are pretty much the only way to claw yourself out of abject poverty.
    1 point
  24. I don't cross picket lines in any scenario, so yes that's correct. This is like arguing if I'd stop supporting the trucking union when places start to run out of food due to their strikes. It's not the truckers fault, it's the fault of those who refuse to pair a fair wage. It's not the players fault that people aren't supporting vendors because players went on strike, it's ownerships fault (this case it's a lockout so even more on the owners). This is something people seem to have a difficult time understanding. Just because you're not starving or living paycheck to paycheck doesn't mean you no longer deserve a fair share of the pot that is built on the back of your work. Fair compensation and workers rights degrade over time; they are chipped away CBA after CBA. The reason we're sooo far from the 40's-60's in regards to profit distribution to workers is because they have been chipped away one CBA, one union breakup, one lobbiest proposal at a time.
    1 point
  25. Can't disagree with anything you said here.
    1 point
  26. There's a large labor movement going on among working people right now and I view any wins for labor as a positive. It's black and white from my pov. I will support labor no matter who it is. I definitely give a shit about the average working person and I think a win on a level like this could help the larger labor movement in general. I stand in solidarity with anyone fighting for better working conditions. The thing that sucks is that the strongest unions in the country represent pro athletes. We need more private sector unions. (I think everyone should have and want one) I don't understand how people can watch what the MLBPA does for their group and say "Why can't I have that at my job?" Props to the people at Kellogg's and John Deere for their recent wins.
    1 point
  27. Then they can sell the team and invest in the stock market!
    1 point
  28. It's also one of those things where the dodgers being willing to trade bellinger would mean they don't think he's bouncing back either (normal bellinger with his versatility and bat >> even a very good outcome for Vaughn), so you should think twice anyway.
    1 point
  29. Pretty clear over the last few weeks just how much of the bulls success Demar in particular is responsible for.
    1 point
  30. How about this: If the owners are assuming so much risk, they lose their legalized monopoly?
    1 point
  31. Those poor billionaires. Hopefully they won’t lose their yachts.
    1 point
  32. Yeah his back must really be hurting from all the water he is carrying for the owners.
    1 point
  33. Somewhere around 44% of the billionaires and owners' class inherited their money. (I can't separate the data for China, but they have even more billionaires than the US and 90%+ of those are self-made, so the numbers in the US would be closer to 60-65% inherited.) They were just born luckier. So why would you side with them over players...the majority of Latin Americans coming from close to abject poverty in the Dominican or Venezuela....when they haven't even had to lift a finger to earn their positions, like Reinsdorf's kids? There are 2,604 billionaires in the world, and 55.8% of them are self-made. That’s according to the Billionaire Census published Thursday by market research firm Wealth-X. Taken together, self-made billionaires have a total of nearly $5 trillion. Another 30.9% of billionaires made at least some of their wealth themselves, according to the report, while 13.3% inherited their wealth entirely. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/10/wealthx-billionaire-census-majority-of-worlds-billionaires-self-made.html
    1 point
  34. In 2020, you told us it would be years until we played anyway.
    1 point
  35. You should buy a team with a group of friends. You make it sound like anyone can make a small fortune doing it.
    1 point
  36. Perhaps a disease could sweep across the World and wipe out 2/3rds of a season. I know...unlikely but it could happen.
    1 point
  37. As far as your signature part of the post, the Sox intention is to trade Kimbrel for a “few decent players.” Suggesting they just casually throw in Vaughn alongside Kimbrel for a “few decent players” is honestly ridiculous. Your bias is so strong you’re literally ignoring the reality of Vaughn’s value, not only to the Sox, but to the rest of the league.
    1 point
  38. Sox picked the wrong draft to finally pass on Carson Fulmer.
    1 point
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