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Sarava

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    Winter Meetings Thread

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    6 hours ago, fathom said:

    And Fegan just posted an article that says the Sox are basically at their budget now.  Super!

    Remember back a few years when the Sox had a bottom 5 payroll. Rick Hahn promised us over and over the money would be spent and they would bring in premium talent. That money never got spent. It's been sitting in jerry bank account accruing interest at a rapid pace.

    Fast forward a handful of years. They peaked up to the 7th payroll, but doing so without ever signing premium talent. And now they are already pulling back. This is just ridiculous. Why can't Jerry do us a solid and just sell the damn team.

    White Sox fans deserve better than this guy.

    • Like 3

    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    3 minutes ago, poppysox said:

    If only you knew if Judge would do that for us.  Ya just never knows, but if you take a shot at the silly money guys and miss...you are cooked for the next decade.

    Judge will be 31 early in the season and has the big body type that tends to not age very well. Harper and Machado were 26 when they were free agents and were about as good of free agent superstar bets as you'll ever see - as people said at the time. That isn't Monday morning quarterbacking here.

    • Like 2
    • Fire 1

    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted · Edited by Sarava

    23 minutes ago, poppysox said:

    There are 24 owners who are cheaper than JR.  For the most part we agree on the rest.  I'm sure glad we won't be paying Harper this coming year, however.

    That's a case of not seeing the forest through the trees. JR suffers from the same problem. Harper's contract would have largely paid for itself already.

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    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    On 12/2/2022 at 6:18 PM, poppysox said:

    I agree with you that JR will "hit it hard" this off season.  I'm not one to like these mega contracts but rather sign 2 or 3 players for that same money that the one guy sucks up.  Spread the risk a bit.  Mostly I hate all the JR is cheap chatter that creeps into each and every topic.  Max Kepler, Madrigal, Bellinger, Clevenger, and Q would make a nice offseason IMO.  Don't get me wrong, I would be thrilled with Judge, but he scares me a lot.

    The 'spread the risk' method is largely what they've done over the years and it continues to not work.

    I am one who will quickly push the JR is cheap narrative that you 'hate', but I won't be saying anything about Aaron Judge. It just feels like a bad contract waiting to happen, and with our current ownership, a bad contract of that magnitude would cripple the franchise for a long time.

    I actually don't like much of anything for the Sox this year with a high price tag. There were better targets in recent years and the Sox didn't pull the trigger for whatever their reasons (we all know what they are).

    Bryan Reynolds’s requests trade

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    28 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

    What do you think the combined salary will be for Reynolds and Bell in 2023?

    20 mil or slightly over. Reynolds contract is cheap, which is all the more reason his value will sore high. But more important as far as our budget-minded owner is concerned, nowhere near as long of a commitment as Nimmo will demand.

    Bryan Reynolds’s requests trade

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    35 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

    But then you suggested signing Josh Bell to replace Vaughn. If we’re willing to spend, then just sign Nimmo. Which option would you rather have?

    1. Reynolds OF, Bell 1B, no Montgomery in the system 

    2. Nimmo OF, Vaughn 1B, Montgomery still in the system 

    I would take option 2, and it’s not particularly close in my opinion. 

    I would go #2 because of keeping Montgomery. But Jerry isn't spending the cash to sign Nimmo, so that's a moot point. I'm assuming Bell would be significantly cheaper.

    Bryan Reynolds’s requests trade

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted · Edited by Sarava

    8 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

    What am I missing with Reynolds?  There’s not a chance in hell I’m giving up Vaughn and Montgomery for him. 

    He checks all the boxes for what this team needs. Power, on base, good defense, can mash RH pitching. If you could pull off a trade that doesn't include Colas, the Sox could have a potential monster outfield of Colas, Robert and Reynolds.

    At this point - why not, if you could pull that off, which you probably couldn't? The time to go for it is now. This team probably won't be all that great several years from now. Put all chips in and see where it goes.

    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    9 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

    When did I say any of those things???   They were contenders and they spent big...80's 90's, 00's and tens.  You can argue that we were poor at talent evaluation.  I think with all the Hahn hate we ignore the fact that KW took over that 2000 team that was a young 95 win team and #1 farm system and left in 2013 a barren wasteland.

    As for the "big city" White Sox with an exciting young team (that played poorly) were 19th in attendance and 7th in payroll last year...and we slam the owner.  Their TV and radio packages have been second rate as well.  Honestly I think the Sox are idiots if they don't sign Judge.  Chicago fans are front runners and will flood to GRF if the Sox are a hot topic.  Adding Judge makes this lineup scary.      

    Hey, I would love Judge being signed. It's not my money . But they wont do it. Reinsdorf is risk-averse, and Aaron judge carries massive risk. He's not going to give 300 mil to a soon to be 31 year old with a big body (big body's tend to break down faster).

    • Like 1

    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    21 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

    Seriously...are you twelve years old?   I lost the debate because all the evidence was on my side?  2019 was the year to spend big?  That 2018 with the stocked rotation of Shields, injured Dylan Cease, Gio with the worst ERA in baseball, Dylan Covey and Reylo?  The year after our outfield was Delmonico, Engel and Avisail?   Matt Davidson our DH?   Yoan was our 2b coming off a .700 OPS year with bad defense?  Yolmer was our 3b?   That team was no where near ready to cook and that's when you want to push all the chips in...not now when we one of the top bullpens in baseball, one of the top rotations in baseball and a potential all star at 7 positions.  Signing Judge makes us a top three WS favorite.  Signing Harper in 2019 would have made us a serious wild card contender.   

    Bryce Harper and Manny Machado were very young free agents (26 if I recall right) due to starting in the show at a young age. Yes that was absolutely the time to sign one of those guys to anchor this rebuild. You wouldn't have just had one of them for 2019. They would have been here in 20, 21, 22, and long after that. And everyone said it at the time - there wont be guys like them to sign in the years after that that were as young talented and there for the taking. They needed to pounce. They declined to make an offer for Harper, and lowballed Machado with an offer they knew he wouldn't accept.

    Congrats on being the only Sox fan to not understand this!

    • Like 2
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    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    19 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

    That's NOT what I'm saying...over and over again I have said that when they have a contention window for a number of years they have a top ten payroll.  For forty years we have seen this pattern.  You want to b**** about poor evaluation of major league talent or poor drafting...fine.  But to whimper about the Sox not spending money is demonstrably wrong.  

    Top ten payrolls in half of the last 16 years...2022, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006 and by the way I suspect never in the top ten of attendance or tv revenues.  

     

    It's a weird argument you're making. In that, if they had spent more money in some of those years, they would have been more contenders. So you're using their lack of effort to contend as an excuse to not spend, so they can contend. It's a big circle jerk.

    And honestly, which big market owners are so frugile? New York, SF, LA and Chicago are the big 4 cities where owners should be top 10 or damn close every year. Is Jerry a bigger spender than any of those owners? Those are the teams he should be spending neck and neck with - the Dodgers, Giants, Angels, Mets, Yankees and Cubs.

    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    14 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

    Yes everyone agrees our contention winner is nearly over.  Good grief...this board.  27 is when players hit their peak...there's zero chance that Vaughn, Robert, Sosa, Jiminez, Cease, Kopech, Yoan, Crochett will get better than they were in 2022.   No reason to believe we will have a payroll above the 13th best.  No reason to think Colas, Montgomery, Vera, Popeye, Schultz, Ramos will be any good.   

    What is a contention winner? lol

    You've spun this conversation around since you lost the debate about Jerry's spending. 

    I actually don't disagree if someone were to say the Sox could win the World Series if a bunch of things fall right. That doesn't mean the rebuild wasnt in a better position a couple years ago. Their time to really spend was several years ago. For example - IMO - signing Bryce Harper when he was a free agent and practically begging for a team to pay him, would have been a more impactful move than even signing Aaron Judge this winter would be. There would have been more benefit at the previous point in time, while you still had Giolito's prime, it was before Moncada's decline, etc.

    • Like 2

    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

    2011 White Sox had top 5 payroll, 2010 it was 7.   In every decade in JR's ownership we've had a top 5 payroll.  Sorry if I get exasperated by the non-stop, every thread, people bitching about ownerships cheapness.  I only do it because it's not true...but don't let me interfere with the b**** fest.  I will stop trolling.  

    Wait - in every decade they've had a top payroll once out of those 10 years? Are you even serious here? Do you understand Chicago is a big market? They should have a top 5 payroll more often than not. And they should be in the top 10 every year.

    • Like 3

    Yanks Lure Aaron Judge back, $360M/9

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

    That is a silly arbitrary number.   Comparing 2020 contracts to 1980, 1990, 2000 contracts is meaningless.   The question is will JR pay for a big contract and he has often...Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Albert Bell, Carlton Fisk, Julio Cruz.  Top five payrolls in all of those eras...and we just freed up $35 million with Abreu and Keuchel.  I'm not predicting it but to say speculation is impossible is just meatballery.    

    Are you Jerry on a burner account? 2 big free agent splashes in 42 years as owner, and the last one was 26 years ago. And none in this big rebuild contention window, which is pretty much agreed by most to be over the hump on its way down now.

    We all love our White Sox. But we have a cheapskate owner who has proven that for 4+ decades. It is what it is.

    • Like 6
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    Mike Clevinger to Sox per Rosenthal

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

    Nothing particularly against Clevinger but it is depressing that the Sox are signing a 5th starter level player when they already have Lynn and Giolito who need to rebound or they will be that level and Kopech who is recovering from an operation and needs to improve next season. Apart from Cease the rotation is made up of players who we are hoping to rebound and that is if they stay fit.

    IMO Clevinger slots as one of the top 5th starters in baseball. There's an awful lot of upside here now that he's 2 years out from TJS. That said, yes the staff is a bit shaky in the health department and Hahn really needs to come through with better depth than he has in recent years.

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    Mike Clevinger to Sox per Rosenthal

    in Pale Hose Talk

    Posted

    4 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

    I probably would have taken SD’s offer too.  Probably dodged a bullet though.  Lynn has been far more productive with the Sox than Clevenger would have been the last 2 years.  

    Yep and Josh Naylor alone has done way more than either Madrigal or Dunning.

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