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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2016 -> 06:04 PM) SOURCE: The soon to be Obama owned White Sox are down to one team for Chris Sale's services. Savage

QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 09:18 AM) Don't mean to cut down the whole thread but, we really gonna use a snarky redeye article as something to feel victimized over? Who cares. Also - this is no different than what we ourselves have been saying about sox, not sure why writers should prop us up for no reason. This. I'm sorry their article made you upset enough to make a thread about this.

If Theo calls and offers Schwarber, Baez, Contreras, Happ, Jimenez....you hang up the phone on them? Give me a break. If it makes the Sox better for long term sustainable growth as a franchise, you do the deal. To quote the Andy to the warden in Shawshank, "Why are you being so obtuse?"

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 15, 2016 -> 01:17 PM) What is the big difference between Heyward (pre 2016) and Adam Eaton today? These figures are straight off of fangraphs. Jason Heyward 2015 6.0 WAR, 16.4 Def, 120 RC+, 22.6 UZR, 24, DRS, 5.2 Arm Adam Eaton 2016 6.0 WAR, 18.0 Def, 115 RC+, 22.5 UZR, 20 DRS, 9.1 Arm. Speaking of a Cub player. Eaton would be a perfect fit to take over for Fowler and the Cubs have the prospects to get a deal done. Unfortunately, I get it, the Sox won't trade with them, but I disagree with that line of thinking. Your job as a GM is to make your team better, who cares if it makes the crosstown team better as well. Whatever gets us closer to a WS title.

Best thing about this news is this is the first official rumor for Sale. It should get other teams involved and up their offers(looking at you Boston). I still believe Moncada and Benintendi package is the deal they are really after.

QUOTE (Tony @ Nov 7, 2016 -> 01:21 AM) The argument here of course is that the Sox have been awful at identifying, drafting and developing talent, so going the full rebuild route is a bad one. They lucked into a 2005 World Championship by having a mix of younger and veteran players, so that is route they should go. Basically, the Sox don't have the talent evaluators capable of conducting a rebuild, so it would be a waste of time. This organization is in a BAD place. The Sox have been bad at building their own talent, no doubt. However, whether they draft it or whether they obtain it through trade, there is no doubt that they need more talent for the long term. Trading and rebuilding gets that done far more quickly, especially when you have assets to deal to get those deals done. You look back on the 2005 team, sure there were only a few home grown players in Buehrle, Crede and Rowand. They also went out and brought in other teams top prospects with very little MLB experience to be a part of it like Konerko, Garland, Cotts, Uribe. The point is, it doesn't just have to be the White Sox scouts and draft alone to build this back up. It is OK to make moves and help shape the roster to be good in the future and also cheap enough where they aren't hamstrung financially like they are now. They have to run more like the Oakland A's than the Cubs. The front office has to embrace that philosophy and stop with half measures in order to have prolonged success.

It is just painful right now and could be even more painful in another week if the Cubs win it all. It is bad enough being the 2nd team in the city, 2nd class citizens so to speak. To grow up a Sox fan is so hard to explain. Very few of us are born with the silver spoon. On the northside, it is the exact opposite. They often come from wealthy families, well to do families. There is almost a certain level of jealousy over the Cubs. Most Sox fans I know come from entirely different backgrounds. We wear our Sox fan badge very differently than a Cub fan. We do it to prove we are tough, don't give a damn about being cool and popular like the Cubs, yet, we get bent out of shape when we aren't cool and popular(look at the CBS and ESPN crap). If you are from out of town and are coming to Chicago, what neighborhood do you want to spend time in during your summer vacation to the big city? It's no real surprise as to why they are more popular. I get it. This Cub run isn't going to be like the Sox in 2005, it will go on a long time. They are built so well, young controllable talent, $$$ available for FA's. Heck their worst position player just got signed to a massive contract in Heyward and it doesn't even faze them. It would cripple most teams. I just really hope the Sox do the right thing and blow it up and truly rebuild. No one is granted tomorrow on this earth, so I don't want to hear that JR is old and won't do it. I could die tomorrow and I still want them to do the best thing for the franchise and that's to rebuild and be ready for 2019.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 12, 2016 -> 10:00 PM) FWIW---Boston Cable had their end of season Red Sox wrap-up show tonight. Had 4 of the regular media members that cover the team from different media sources. Retaining Farrell was a sign that Dombrowski will not be making major changes. All were in agreement that Red Sox from all indications will go with existing starters but will need to add a set-up person in bullpen. All agreed Moncada and Benintendi will not be traded. A few other thoughts they had: 1. Moncada could eventually end up as a right-fielder in AAA next year and that could free up a Bradley trade in 2018. 2. 3B is Panda's to lose. 3. Swihart will eventually be traded but not this offseason since he is damaged goods. 4. Vazquez will most likely be the 2017 catcher. 5. Buchholtz could be a sign and trade for a SP prospect or a bullpen piece. I've read this twice now that the Red Sox will not trade for a SP. I call BS. Any team with prospects will entertain a Sale trade just purely based on due diligence. Being a top 5 pitcher with a contract so great, he is worth the price tag the White Sox are asking. I think Sale will be traded, not just to rebuild, but after his Jerseygate fiasco, I really think the White Sox want him gone.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 11, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) I could see this being a plausible basis for such a deal, but the problem with those 2 being the package means the White Sox will not get an "established big leaguer" which is why I think people keep looking at JBJ. The issue therefore on that setup might be more the White Sox than the Red Sox. When you get 2 top 10 prospects in baseball, they are just about major league ready. Established big leaguer doesn't do much for me, just eating up more service time. 1 of the 2 will be a stud, if not both. I think they both will be great personally. Benitendi is big league ready already, he was starting in the playoffs and Moncada needs a little bit more time in the minors and should be ready by June.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 11, 2016 -> 12:40 PM) I don't think the Red Sox would move both JBJ and Benintendi. I know you've said the same earlier in the thread, but I don't think a rental of Melky really changes anything. JBJ and Benintendi are both franchise CFers. The BoSox could move one, but moving both would take a huge strength and turn it into a huge hole. Neither Melky Cabrera or Brock Holt will make a difference in that regard. I do think a lot of posters on this board are underrating JBJ. I know we're trading the best asset the White Sox have ever had in this hypothetical and people want better than JBJ as a headliner, but JBJ is a .340-.360 OBP guy with 20+ dingers and great defense. Other than depth of the roster, our problem is the lack of power/OBP/defense. JBJ does all of those things at a premium position. At home, he can really take away the gaps. Seeing what Lorenzo Cain does when KC come to town, it would be incredible to have our own guy forcing teams to hit the long ball to win. Especially with Eaton in RF. I think Kopech is the guy the Sox would insist on including. He'd be the next ace prospect in the system hopefully to replace Sale in a few years. He had some makeup concerns coming out of the draft and has since been suspended for stims and suspended for fighting with a teammate. That adds another layer of risk on a 20 year old who throws 100+. He is filthy though. Despite a clear need to stop tipping his off-speed pitches, Kopech absolutely dominated A+ as a 20 year old. He stays tall and closed on the fastball but has a bad habit of dropping down and slowing down on the offspeed offerings. From my largely untrained eye, his mechanics would check out with the Sox. So to me, one of JBJ/Benintendi is a must. Kopech is a must. One of Swihart/Vazquez makes too much sense. If it's JBJ, we need Moncada too. If it's Bentinendi, the last four pieces are higher quality guys than the last three on Moncada/JBJ starter. If we could somehow get Moncada/JBJ that would be incredible. My deals in order of preference and least likelihood: 1.) Moncada, JBJ, Kopech, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson. 2.) Benintendi, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson 3.) JBJ, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Luis Alexander Basabe I am still not seeing a package with Moncada AND Benintendi. I think these 2 both have to be in a package for Sale. It might mean slightly lesser 3 thru 5 pieces in the deal, so no Devers or Kopech. I know they probably don't want to trade both in a deal, but I think the WS have to insist on both. Boston will be fine without both. Moncada is projected at 2B/3B where they still have in house options of Pedroia and Shaw and later Devers. Benintendi, they can do without, with JBJ and Betts staying there. It would require them to spend on a LF and DH with Ortiz leaving. They have the money to make that happen. Melky could be involved in the deal to plug a hole on their end and free us of $13 million. Also keep in mind they are saving huge dollars on Sale who really should be making $30 million a year, so a saving of roughly $20 million, which they can spend on Encarnacion/Cespedes.

QUOTE (shipps @ Aug 8, 2016 -> 04:02 PM) The terrible part of this whole thing is that lets say they do throw a ton of money out there and grab three of the top FA's and maybe make a trade somewhere in there. Doesnt that just make them the Angels? Who are fundamentally flawed to being with as well so even that doesnt work. While I'd love them to compete in 2017, imagine them spending $50 million of 3 big FA's. What kinda contracts are they giving out to sign them, 4-5 year deals for guys in their 30's? I have a feeling I know how that works out in the end. Then in 2018, you have to figure out a way to replace your 3B, 2B and LF as they will all be free agents. Throw another $50 million at it? Throw AAAA talent at those spots and hope they work? Sign cheap over the hill vets? They need to sell. They need to move Sale and Q for huge hauls, and be ready to compete for 2018 and beyond.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 05:26 AM) They can DH/1B Frazier and Abreu and move Saladino to 3B. Or they can DH/1B Frazier and Abreu and move Lawrie to 3B and Saladino to 2B. If they made this move they would have to fill the remaining holes by signing Ramos and Desmond. I'm sure that will add ~$35 mill annually to the payroll. If Tilson panned out for CF they could do something like sign Encarnacion/Trumbo and Ramos. This is exactly the type of moves they have been making and then failing. Boosting people like Saladino into a full time role is entirely stupid. He is a great defensive backup. They need to go get a C, 1B/3B/DH and an OF. 3 good guys, not 3 scrubs, or bounce back candidates, 37+ year old veterans, backups who look like they could be good. If they can't do that, they need to tear it down and start over. They already have too many question marks as it is with everyone else in that lineup. No one has been truly consistent outside of Eaton the past few years.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 3, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) The problem is Hahn knew all the payroll restrictions when he took the job, and about KW's status as his superior/supervisor/mentor, whatever you want to call it. During these four or five years, we've been unable to grow revenues and expand payroll....at least not since the blip of the 2014-15 off-season when we foolishly tried to spend our way into contention but didn't really come close. I can't imagine many of the die-hard season ticket holders not ripping up or throwing away anything having to do with 2017 right now. But the solution is VERY VERY simple. They're going to have to trade Sale OR Quintana this off-season AND be willing to up the payroll into the $140-150 million range in order to acquire some of the pieces they can't trade for. You can see them making one of the trades, but raising payroll in the face of declining revenues, in a FA market with a declining rate of return on investment.....yeah, not so much. HEGONE7 said it well. JR has to have a long conversation with the board of directors and decide if he really trusts Hahn AND/OR KW to stick around for this rebuild/retooling. Realistically, they need to start making checklists (Stone said this on the Score today) of 1-20 or 1-50 of all the areas of minor league development/scouting/evaluation (baserunning, fielding, fundamentals, advancing runners, backing up bases, positioning on throws, bunting), etc., and bringing in more "experts" from the outside (see Hostetler or Paddy) who can replace long-time Sox scouts and coaching staff who quite simply aren't getting the job done. At any rate, right now....there's just ZERO hope for 2017. It would have been better had they started the process at the trade deadline, but they still have August and the offseason. Unfortunately, we won't get the advantage of seeing Tilson now because he's injured. We know that Sanchez probably isn't an everyday player. It's just going to be frustrating watching guys like Shuck, Avi Garcia, Morneau and the Navarro soaking up playing time when they're unlikely to be part of the team next year. The same thing happened at the end of 2015, when they almost completely stopped playing Saladino over the last couple of months....because they wanted to give Alexei Ramirez the best opportunity to earn money as a FA???? It just didn't make any sense, and still doesn't. Send Fulmer back to AAA so he can start. Let Ranaudo get some more starts. Play Saladino, and Tilson when he (hopefully) returns from his hamstring injury. Heck, bring up Burdi for awhile and see how he does out of the bullpen in September. Just give the fans SOME TANGIBLE reason to be interested in following this team going forward. It's pretty sad when I was watching the game yesterday and a fellow Sox fan said...well, at least the Twins have Sano and Kepler and Berrios and Buxton (even if they're in last)....and they'll have a very high draft pick next year...so what do we have to look forward to in terms of young impact position players? Difference makers...? Are there any? It's as if Hahn and KW have no idea as to what they really are. They are more Oakland A's than they are New York Yankees. They simply don't have the payroll to run like the Yankees, which I am fine with, but they don't run the franchise like the A's either, and that's the biggest problem. They have to have young talent coming through the pipeline consistently. They simply don't have that. They have to fix the minor leagues and they need to replenish it the best they can, which means selling off key MLB pieces to do so. The other problem is, do they actually want to do that or will they keep throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks. That has been the plan the past 11 years. They got lucky in 2005 and all the crap they threw together actually worked. Since then it has been a collection of Mackowiaks, Erstads, Avis, Rollins type guys rolling through here. You just can't expect to win when you have no real plan other than hoping. Hoping and praying isn't a business plan. They have to either throw $50 million more into payroll and act like a real big market team or strip it all down and rebuild the right way. The problem is they won't do either. That's what's so mind boggling about all of this. I believe rebuilding is the more prudent decision, also knowing throwing money at the team is not something I ever envision happening.

They are going to hope Tilson can be an everyday CF, sign a FA bat to play OF/DH(Reddick, Desmond type) and a C Ramos/Weiters. This sellout thing just isn't going to happen. That's fine, but 2017 is a boom or bust year because then in 2018, they have to replace Melky, Lawrie and Frazier.

QUOTE (Two-Gun Pete @ Jul 30, 2016 -> 11:54 PM) And again, come up with a realistic trade that'll get it done. Boston doesn't "need" to add a Sale-like player to compete; if the season ended today, they'd already be in the postseason. And I agree, in that as Sale nears the end of his contract, his surplus value declines. But to my original post, he is, RIGHT NOW, too valuable to receive sufficient return in trade. In a season or two, he will be tradeable, IMO. It isn't just about this season and their ability to compete. This deal is for 3.5 years of Sale, a top SP, at the most friendly contract there is. He is an investment for the Red Sox, long term. Also, SP on the free agent market is brutal. Just nothing any team will be after outside of Rich Hill. So if the Red Sox do need a top SP for the future, which they will, it will cost them. Might as well make the move now on their end, to have a better chance at a championship this year and the next 3 years.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jul 30, 2016 -> 05:04 PM) so terrible free agent class, no minor leaguers to trade....I'm just kind of curious what the "go for it 2017" plan would look like. The Free Agent class isn't awful, there's actual useful players for the Sox but there is no way they get the best options. They will just be too expensive and they will sell you on Adam Lind, Carlos Gomez, Pedro Alvarez, Matt Weiters types. They may go after one of the bigger names like Encarnacion, Trumbo, Bautista, but the cost and length of contract will hurt them long term anyway. Also, as I have said in other posts, wait til 2018 and then they have to go out and spend even more money to replace Melky, Lawrie and Frazier. This team just isn't going to spend a combined $50 million in salary on free agents in back to back years.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Jul 30, 2016 -> 02:08 PM) Then they better add a catcher, a centerfielder, a first baseman, and a couple of bullpen arms. Do you really think they will spend $50 million in salary next year to fill these positions with players who are actually good? Then what do they do in 2018 when Frazier, Lawrie and Melky's contracts are up? Spend another $50 million to replace. Now is the time to sell and rebuild the farm. This situation could not be any more ideal. Selling 2 of the top SP in the game and get back huge hauls for the future. Trading now will have you in a good position as early as 2018.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 30, 2016 -> 01:40 PM) I'm not sure it's been brought up in this mega thread yet, but the other thing you have to consider is the ego and reputations of Hahn and Williams when making a trade of Chris Sale and or Jose Quintana, but Sale especially. You have a young, affordable starter that may be the best pitcher in the American League, who just started the All-Star game at 27. He's been a dominate starting pitcher for your team the last 5 seasons, as has zero playoff innings pitched. By trading Sale, you're not only telling people you weren't able to put enough talent around him to win the last 5 years, but that you don't think you'll be able to put together enough talent around him in the future as well. It's a total indictment on your job and while most already know it, and trade of Chris Sale for prospects is the nail in the coffin. Obviously as fans we shouldn't care about that, but that side of things has to go through the head of Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams. This is a good point but the real indictment on Hahn and KW is their insistence on half assing things and hoping they find a diamond in the rough type guy to be an important piece. They have year after year now gone into the season with holes and questions marks at several huge spots. In the AL, you can't count on a guy like Avi to be your DH. You need production from that spot. You can't signed washed up players like Rollins, Latos and AJax and just hope that things work out. Crap in one hand and hope in the other and tell me what fills up faster. The worst part about all of this is how many players they have on super team friendly deals. They have been too cheap to add good players through Free Agency and were awful at drafting for the past 10 years to develop their own players. You either have to do one or the other to be successful and if you can do both well, you are golden. That is the real indictment on Hahn and KW. They brought all of this on themselves.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 29, 2016 -> 01:45 PM) I largely prefer not packaging, especially in the case of Sale. I think we actually lose out in a "package" deal. On the flip side, I'd be open to it with Q and Robertson for example. I'm fine packaging if it means Moncada and Benitendi together.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2016 -> 03:03 PM) How is trading 2 in their prime All Stars signed to team friendly contracts a win if 2 of the players acquired turn into all stars? Trading 2 all stars in their prime for 2 future all stars for their 6 years of control is a win. It also is a win in that it gives you even more pieces to get better as a team. They have so many holes to fill for the future. I assume these 2 trades would get you at least 2 all stars, if not more.

QUOTE (HeGone7 @ Jul 28, 2016 -> 12:37 PM) I'm with you, but it is what needs to occur. Even Bowden was on tv the other night saying how rival executives think the Sox will have the fastest rebuild of all-time. They understand the basics. The type of talent the Sox can acquire, while nothing is a sure thing, is so much better than what we typically see dealt this time of year. Or if we do see that type of talent dealt, that's the only bullet the selling team fires of that level. So yes, this is a very unique opportunity for the Sox. More importantly, they can stretch their payroll out with veterans or role players or make a decent splash in the next couple years because of the flexibility they'll have. If you keep it together, and can somehow acquire the elite talent you lack offensively without dealing both arms. Fine. I won't complain (too much) but we know this isn't the case. So the longer you wait on dealing your big chips, the longer we stretch out this cycle of mediocrity and the more your value on Sale/Q dive. Much of the extreme value is in their controllability/contracts, as we all know. You wait for 2 years and you're looking at weaker package. It's just fact. I just am not sure the 3 stooges making decisions can pull this off. And when they don't, year 3 of 3 should be the end of their jobs, not just "the plan." If you can get Moncada and Benitendi in a deal for Sale along with some mid level prospects and Q can go to the Dodgers for their best prospects Urias, Deleon, Bellinger etc. You are looking to get back 8-10 prospects in total I imagine in these deals. If only 2 of them become All Star type talents, you won these deals. If you get more than 2 All Stars, you really won the deal. In addition to the farm we are currently building, this team could be competitive again quickly in 2018 or 2019. Look at this lineup for 2018 and think of how cheap and good the roster could be. RF Eaton SS Anderson 2B Moncada DH Abreu C Collins 3B Frazier(if resigned or another FA or a prospect they trade for this weekend) 1B Bellinger CF Benitendi LF Melky(if resigned or another FA or a prospect they trade for this weekend) SP Urias SP Rodon SP Deleon SP Fulmer SP Hansen This lineup is much better than what it could be with keeping Sale and Q. We would continue to have 3-4 holes in the lineup just like we do now and we have seen how that has worked out. I at least trust them to develop pitching as they have a good track record there and rebuild that quickly.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 02:25 PM) Yes, this guy gets it. Don't pass on this opportunity Rick Hahn! If Hahn does this right, he could walk away from the deadline with 12 players who were top 10 prospects for their respective teams. That would be a massive haul for trading away Sale, Q, Melky, Frazier, Duke. If they can keep drafting well under Hahn like they have(So much better than under KW) they have a chance to be ready to compete again in 2018 and win in 2019.

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 02:14 PM) Guy on Twitter told me Boston would be crazy to trade Moncada who is a "Hall of fame talent". Maybe he will be but anointing minor leaguers before they step foot in the big leagues is a joke. They all overvalue their own prospects LOL It's similar to those on this site that thing Sale gets you a Correa/Betts type AND all their top 5 minor leaguers.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 11:04 AM) Hopefully whatever they do from this point forward is with 2019 and beyond in mind. Punt on 2016-2018 as far as winning because it's not happening either way. Get a pool of young talent, get high draft picks and smart international signings the next few years, and be in a position for sustained winning at least by 2020. If that means trading both Sale and Quintana right now, do it. It doesn't mean they have to trade them now, but Sale and Quintana are never pitching in the playoffs for the Sox. If/when they get a proposal that makes sense, move them and anyone else that isn't going to be part of the 2020 team. If the asking price is 5 top prospects for Sale and 4 for Quintana, can you imagine what that does for the future. It totally changes the game for their current future projections. If they hold onto Sale and Quintana, they basically have a 1 year window(2017) to win. This would require throwing gobs of money at Encarnacion, Desmond, Ramos. This is clearly not a White Sox move. Then and only then could they possibly make the playoffs short term, and it may only be short term for that one season. 2018, Frazier, Melky, Lawrie all would be gone. Who would replace them? It would have to be even more money thrown at FA's or throwing money at those players. Again, not the White Sox MO. Trading everything away now and retooling and being ready for 2018 or 2019 is the way to go. I am convinced this is the best long term solution for them being a great team again. 2020-2025 would be some great baseball. I won't make fake lineups but imagine Moncada, Collins, Benitendi, De Leon and much much more playing at the Cell. Sale and Q's value are at all time highs now, now is the time to strike and rebuild. You then can get rid of all the other vet's and get good prospects for them as well. I'd say goodbye to Frazier, Melky, Lawrie, Duke, Robertson. Heck even Eaton and Abreu could go. I really hope Hahn does the right thing and fixes this mess that KW has created.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 12:52 PM) I don't think Boston would give up Moncada for either. They spent $63 million signing him with bonus plus penalty. I find it hard to believe he would be available starlight up let alone in a package. I don't think they want to deal him too, but they know to get a Sale type talent, Moncada has to be in the trade package. The Red Sox also have so much talent on the MLB roster and so much money to spend to replace players like Big Papi, they can afford to let their top prospects go for Sale. That's the only way Sale gets dealt anyhow.