Balta1701
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Posts posted by Balta1701
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1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:
Turn your point around, though...realistically, which pitchers other than Michael Kopech were you expecting dramatically better results out of?
Other than Kopech, you're left trying to blame Katz for disappointing performances out of expensive veteran relievers and/or blaming him for Liam's injury/mistreatment...and 100% his early return was a combination of Sox PR/Boyer and Liam himself being so willing to push himself to the limits.
Lynn was/is pretty obviously cooked. Keuchel was, as well. It's not exactly like he had Wheeler and Nola to work with here. Spider tack and sheer aging/physical health deterioration there.
If you had a SoxTalk poll of who is to blame for Michael Kopech's career...I would venture to guess that only 10-15% of that (at most) would fall back on Katz.
So we're left with a very incomplete record.
And even "disappointments" like Reynaldo Lopez got paid "generational family wealth" upon leaving the Sox. Dane Dunning has settled into a 5th starter/swingman role, but it's not like the Rangers trusted him in the heart of their postseason rotation either, fwiw.
That leaves who exactly, Aaron Bummer?
You’ve pretty much backed off to saying “sure there’s no reason to have any confidence in Ethan Katz but Hahn did a terrible job too”, and you’re right. But that is the point, there’s no reason to have any confidence in Ethan Katz! The best you have is “the mess wasn’t all his fault”, but that leaves no reason to think he is going to be a powerful voice for wisdom and responsibility with this pitcher all of a sudden.
“It’s not the majors fault that the stadium collapsed!”
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11 minutes ago, Sambuca said:
I’m not sure that comparison really makes sense.
It also doesn’t take away from Caulfield’s point that Katz can take credit for essentially reinventing Rodon, turning his career around, and making him not only a successful MLB SP for the first time in his career, but an elite one at that.
But I am honestly also not sure how good Katz is of a pitching coach 🙂
I had high hopes for him after with some early success in his tenure, but then outside of Cease in ‘22 and Santos in ‘23, it’s kind of been a disaster the last two years.
Yes, Katz was important in helping Rodon turn his career around.
But the specific subject was whether we had confidence in them using Crochet responsibly, and how Katz would totally use a guy responsibly. Except, with the biggest reclamation project in Katz's career, Rodon, the pitcher was used totally irresponsibly! He threw a 9 inning, 114 pitch no hitter in the 2nd game of the season, and then he was back on the mound 6 days later, no extra rest! They had him throw 90+ pitches per start in literally every outing he had until after the All Star Break. He threw 430 pitches in 4 starts in June. Somehow, this pitcher broke down, how could that have happened when they took such care of his arm? That seems pretty darn relevant.
Other stuff that seems relevant from those breakout pitchers. Davis Martin - had a pretty decent 2022. Blew out his elbow.
Gregory Santos - Had a good 2023. Has had multiple injury issues since September.As of right now, I don't see any reason why "Ethan Katz totally knows what he's doing why are you criticizing Pedro" is anything I should believe.
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19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:
Clevinger was better than he was in SD. Santos Scholtens Cueto Martin all outperformed expectations. Cease's 2022. Rodon's 2021... or was that a different pitching coach?
Let's see how all those guys they traded away do in their new settings first.
I would venture a guess Joe Kelly is the only one with significantly better numbers.
Yes, Carlos Rodon's 2021 is truly a relevant example. A hard throwing left hander who had gone through multiple surgeries, was coming off TJS, and where they pitched him in the first half like there were literally zero restrictions on his arm only to have his body wear out in the 2nd half.
That should totally raise your confidence in how they will handle Crochet.
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6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
I'm guessing that Katz and Bannister are making this call, not really Grifol. Or if Grifol decided on it, that was based on very narrow stipulations. He's probably good to go on an inning/pitch limit, and a game/pitch limit. And they'll increase that as they feel he's able to push it.
I swear, everybody believes the same dichotomy the right does about Biden - that he's an ineffective, senile simp who can't even wipe the drool off his own face, but who is masterminding the enslavement of mankind by playing 4 dimensional chess. if Grifol is an imbecile who is only being kept on because JR doesn't want to pay 2 managers at a time, why would they be letting him make key decisions like this?
Why exactly should I have any confidence at all in Ethan Katz when basically I haven't seen anything positive in terms of big league pitching performance since the sticky stuff ban started?
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The White Sox were worse than the A's?
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13 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:
The Sox org is allergic to using the term 'opener' but that's essentially what this will be. I still think this has more to do with desperately trying to pump fan interest and sell a few more OD tix than it does win a game or a pitcher's development as a starter. Best case scenario IMO is that he pitches well as an opener every 5 days and is flippable come the deadline.
I will be excited to be proved wrong, but I don't think they can resist their own urges enough to use him as a true 3 inning opener. I think Grifol is going to say he's a starter so we have to use him as a starter and that means 5 innings first time out.
They couldn't resist the temptation of using him on opening day, why should we expect them to be responsible about his innings total?
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2 hours ago, scotty22hotty said:
Sox should at least offer Montgomery a 2/50 opt out contract or something around a 3/60🤷♂️ just to give fans something to watch this season
But opening day is already spoken for.
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Just now, Timmy U said:
Here’s the issue for the Sox and AAA for anyone: Charlotte is such a joke that most of the numbers are entirely meaningless. You just do not know what you have. A guy can be getting killed there and still survive mlb (e.g. Davis Martin) but it can play with a guy’s head and discourage him from throwing strikes. For a guy like Thorpe whose Achilles Heel has been the long ball, not sure Charlotte is necessary or the best idea long term. The real stars are in AA anyway. I doubt Junior Caminero, Jackson Chourio, and Jackson Holliday are going to combine for 300 career at bats in AAA. You face a lot of Chuckie Robinson in an absolute band box.
For a guy who doesn't rely on velocity and who has an issue with the long ball, there could be similar benefits to pitching in Charlotte. If those hitters push him to identify a couple things he needs to improve on, that could be important too.
But anyway, the important thing right now is actually to give him time at AA. I'm only bringing this up because people here and on twitter have been talking about bringing him north this year since he was performing well in his first 10 spring training innings. Let's put him at AA, see what he does there, and figure out the path.
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8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:
The draft pick screwed Snell but he still gets a guaranteed $62 million over the next two years whether he performs or not. If he’s good, he can enter free agency again next year with no draft pick attached.
Didn’t he turn down 6/$150?
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21 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:
I don’t disagree with your core point, but I don’t think AAA experience is all that important for pitchers. If he dominates AA for three months, then there is a real argument that he’s ready for the majors IMO.
I'm convincible by that, if it's actually clearly beating the league for 3 months. If he's u know putting up an ERA of like 4 this year, then spending some time at AAA next year won't be a mistake.
Leaping from high A to the big leagues? Naw, at least make the jump to AA first and show me he can handle AA. He hasn't done this leap yet, skipping past it because he was having a good 15 innings in spring training? Naw, go to AA.
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16 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:
80 way too little. Conservative would be about 100-120 for me. If they want to make him a starter these are the things you have to do.
At least to me, if you want to get him to 120 innings, the safest way to do that and perhaps the only way to do that is to drop the stress of some of those innings by making them minor league innings.
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2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
Then it doesn't matter whether he starts or relieves, it sounds like. I think the regular routine of more pitches might even build him up better than the chaos of bullpen usage.
And if there's any day during a major league season that is routine and forgettable, it's opening day.
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Just now, WestEddy said:
I don't know why you think coming in from the bullpen and airing it out for a couple of innings on an inning's notice is better on his arm than a planned, 5-day routine where he's not throwing full velocity on each pitch.
Something tells me that a group of professionals who coach pitching as their life's work know a bit more about the situation than two internet guys.
I don't want him out of the bullpen! Putting him in the bullpen was Hahns thing, it was as intelligent as every other move Hahn made.
Send him to Charlotte, use him as an opener, build him up with 3 innings an outing against minor league competition for April, 4 innings per outing in May, give him a break there, move to 5 innings or so in June, then evaluate what his arm is doing, how his body is feeling, how his off speed pitches look, how his velocity has gone. If everything has gone to plan, call him back up mid-year and let him inch his way into the rotation with pretty clear innings limits in the second half. If there are any setbacks, be patient, and try to make sure you don't do anything that shreds his elbow or shoulder again.
Figure out when you want to shut him down from there - I am not as into the 80 innings limit as some people are, if he works his way up to the big leagues and throws more innings than that, at least I kept the intensity low on some of the early ones rather than having him go against big leaguers, but still be super cautious in the 2nd half about making sure he gets extra rest.
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2 minutes ago, Soxfest said:
3 innings max
I'll take the over.
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2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
And hang on, kiddies, here's another right hand turn in this circular argument. Pitchers pitch. You say you are totally in favor of turning Crochet into a starting pitcher. But he can't be stretched out until he starts for years and years and years.
Please tell us which month of 2026 you might let Crochet start a major league game.
You're a silly person.
I'd say right around July 1 if he stays healthy and has no set backs. Take it easy, ramp him up slowly, a couple innings per start at first, maybe even use an IL stint around mid-May to give his arm a break, and evaluate as you go. See how his arm holds up at first, build him up so maybe he can give you 5 innings, then let him face big leaguers.
Frankly, it probably wouldn't hurt him to have some days where he focuses on throwing his offspeed stuff as much as he can at AAA either. Go a whole inning or two without any fastballs, get the feel for both the changeup and slider as a starter would.
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Just now, Tnetennba said:
That might be a stretch, even for Pedro. My hope is that we don't see him in Chicago at any point in 2024, or at least not until September at the earliest. I just don't want them rushing anyone looking for quick fixes for the big club.
Exactly. Thorpe has barely made it to AA, he has 1 full season at high-A ball. He should be at AA at least until he's so dominant there that he earns a callup to AA, or otherwise for nearly the full season. If you want to talk to me next offseason about jumping him from AA to the big leagues, I probably still wont' like it and would argue for time at AAA, but that's at least feasible.
I wouldn't care one bit about him having a bad start today, he's on a new team and mid-March is normal "Dead arm period" for pitchers as they ramp up. But we heard way too many versions of "calling Thorpe up based on his spring training" here and elsewhere online over the past few days, and shutting that down is fine by me.
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4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
And it's a great decision. I get it. It's a logical feel-good story that fans will like, and it will succeed, thus making fans happier with the team. And that would drive the glum-lords, here, nuts. Perhaps you can protest.
And when he gets hurt again, you won't blame the people who made the decisions. We've seen that before, with this pitcher.
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2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:
Lets hope.
Even Pedro can't tell us that a guy with a 7.45 ERA had a great spring, right?
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2 minutes ago, hi8is said:
So what gives… Thorpe struck out 2 and we’re all worried? I don’t understand.
At the very least we don't have to hear about how his great spring training justifies him skipping AA and AAA.
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2 minutes ago, Chimpton said:
Not just claim back a year of control but actually build him up properly to be a starter like a responsible management would. If he lasts through May before breaking down I will be surprised.
Yeah I don't care one iota about Reinsdorf's pocket book or the extra year of control here. This is a risky strategy because it's risky to take a guy with arm problems and no history of building up innings and put him into max-stress innings against big leaguers when you should be trying to build his arm up.
If he gets hurt, people will just say "Oh he would have never made it as a starter", when the org just can't help themselves but find the high risk things to do on the way. Send the guy walking into a minefield and if he doesn't make it across its his fault.
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1 minute ago, WestEddy said:
None of these were Getz's decisions.
This one is.
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1 minute ago, WestEddy said:
I'll wait for you to post Crochet's workout regimen as he came back from TJS. He probably threw a baseball somewhere in there, wouldn't you say? Do you think it's possible that, as he rehabbed from TJS, he threw more as his goal was to be a starter?
I'm sorry baseball is so hard to understand.
Yes. So a guy throws a baseball and therefore he is now stretched out to be a big league starter. No multi-year conditioning effort required! He stretched out in the offseason.
Frankly, ludicrous.
I'm as into turning him into a starter as anyone, and this is a super high risk way to do it. We know his arm isn't well conditioned as he has never thrown innings and you cannot do that magically, guys get hurt when they try that. We know that in the modern big leagues it is a max effort league, guys throw way harder than they did even 10 years ago. Taking no time to even build up his arm because he threw a baseball in the offseason...blah. Standard White Sox fare, pretend guys don't get hurt and act stunned when things go wrong with the plan, it's how Crochet was treated all along.
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1 minute ago, WestEddy said:
I feel they should bring up prospects as they show they can succeed at their current level. Crochet is a major league pitcher. He's supposedly worked out and stretched out all winter for a starter's work load. If Crochet is in future plans, treat him as such.
"Stretched out all winter"? That...makes no sense! Stretching out a starter typically takes years, to condition their arm to be ready for the workload. Did he throw 160 innings over the winter? If so, he probably should be shut down already.
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Or if the 4th QB hasn't gone off the board, the Bears are in a good spot to trade down with one of the teams 11-13.
Garrett Crochet named Opening Day starter
in Pale Hose Talk
Posted
Giolito who, without sticky stuff, put up a 4.90 ERA in 2022 Is something we brag about. I mean, that isn’t the pitching coaches fault, we give him credit when bad things happen that aren’t totally his fault/
And while we are at it, how about the super responsible time we raced him back from COVID and another injury in April of 2022?
Our best defense of Katz continues to be “oh there’s too much blame to place it on any one person.”