HeGone7

Always the guys on their high horse riding ignorance into the stable. None of the moves have even panned out yet. Yet, somehow you’re patting yourself on the back. Takes a special kind of mamaluke. Most of the fans against these moves (me being one of them, to an extent) recognize we should have netted better players w/our cap space. My expectations are different than others. I want to win at a very high level and win a lot. I don’t want to be the same Sox we were before where we “compete for the division”. It’s such a weak mindset. You build the best team in baseball. The division will take care of itself. But setting the bar at what we turned 2020 into is a joke & the hope is it doesn’t hinder us beyond 20’, when they potentially could be a serious contender. An “average” starter they say is a 2-2.5war player. We’ve signed multiple guys like this. For a below average team, sure, it’s an improvement. For those of you only concerned w/being improved, these are great moves for you. For those of us with expectations beyond winning 87 games & taking the central, they’re underwhelming (and potentially awful) commitments made. How you have magically proven this thread has “aged poorly” w/these guys never playing an inning is comical. Who knew that because they signed a couple more 30 something players on the downward trend of their career, suddenly we should crown Hahn a great GM? It speaks to your own lack of belief in what you’re saying. It’s as if you need to say it as much as possible so that you can believe it yourself (or hope to). I bet you’re a Bernie guy. When the Sox win a World Series with these above-average bums, then you can turn around and say it has aged poorly. Until that time, everyone who wanted/expected/comprehends that our free money was better spent on a Machado, Rendon, etc will be proven right. It’s hard enough to win. You’ve chosen, as an organization, to try and do so with mediocre additions. You rebuilt to have the luxury of signing those types of players (Machado’s/Rendon’s/etc) and pairing them w/your young core of elite players. Instead, we’ve now wasted the young players cap flexibility on longshots. We need Keuchel to become a guy he is incapable of being anymore. You need Edwin to cling to his mid-30’s and play more than 100 games. You need Mazara to show a pulse of his potential & you need to hope you don’t waste what’s left of Grandal’s career before your team as a whole is truly ready to win. Otherwise, you’re spending 18 million potentially on a 34/35 year old when it’ll matter most. That is, and will continue to be, Hahn’s evaluation for all of this. If we come up short of a World Series at any point during these contracts, the finger needs to be pointed at them & you people for not understanding how to maximize an opportunity. For those of you who just want a division title, then go enjoy your participation medals. For those of us who sat through / supported the rebuild with expectations of executing this stage and feeling like we’re scrambling on plan C right now, we aren’t fans. Depleting the farm would make matters worse but I still believe they know they need another superstar caliber player. How do you go from all-in on a 25 year old superstar to piece-mealing 30+ year old veterans and declaring this a victory. Make no mistake, this is no victory. This is “best we can do” and we’re hoping for a miracle IF they can steal the division. I didn’t sit through this crap to be back where we were w/Sale & company. Winning shit divisions and getting swept by Houston or NY isn’t going to feel any better than remaining below .500 an extra year and pushing your chips all-in on a Betts/adding more premium talent to your farm/letting your kids develop & not be rushed. It’s not going to feel better than 99 wins from a stacked lineup in the scenario where the money was well spent (Machado, Wheeler, etc - Plan A we’ll call it). Put all the lipstick on this you want to (or need to) but the Sox aren’t serious contenders for the WS as it stands today. Not even close. They’re not even better than the Cubs. But hey! The thread didn’t age well because some Jamoke played the season out in his head.

Who cares about competing for the division in 20’? This rebuild afforded you the opportunity to build a powerhouse. A team that consistently hits 95+ wins. That required signing some big name players. The Cubs tried to do that failed with their signings but Theo still understood the importance of it. The Sox didn’t even make it that far yet bc they physically cannot sign anyone (but they did prove my point by trying for Machado). The Yankees accomplished this on the fly. They have a great core of youth mixed with many high-priced stars. We’ll see what the results of that are in short order. Sox fans, for whatever reason (maybe it’s that we’re exhausted and overly eager to do something) really think the guys from the farm and some mediocre players filling holes will be good enough. Yeah, for 85-88 wins. Which may be enough for our division but my god you people need to snap out of it. It’s not about what we have in our young controllable guys - it’s about what we COULD HAVE / SHOULD HAVE paired with those guys from the cap space created by doing the rebuild. That is the point. If you cannot comprehend that we all want to see success from the team, and specifically this “core” then you’re not only hopeless, you’re blinded by desperation. That core is only as good as their weakest links. Filling voids with mediocrity, simply to please your fan driven urge to TRY and take advantage of a weak division is not only short-sighted, it’s borderline stupid. The purpose of the rebuild was to get as many great players as possible that had yet to become great (right??? that’s what prospects are and especially the one’s we netted). We’ve lucked out, in that, it’s looking pretty good. So far anyway. Why would you hinder the team’s long-term potential, or the peak that this core can have, by straddling our guys with mediocre talent. Platoon players. Aging catchers. Etc. It’s beyond ineptitude. It’s asinine and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding for ceilings. Our ceiling could be huge. Now it’s less. At the moment, it’s quite literally the difference between Moncada at 3B and Mazara in RF or Moncada in RF and Rendon, for example, at 3B. You guys honestly want the former? Lets say we make the playoffs (which will be tougher than people think) and then, there you are, bottom of the 9th and up comes Nomar Flipping Mazara. When it could’ve been Machado, Rendon, etc. You people really want that possibility to exist? You’d rather have that then a potential 100 win team during our peak? The whole point of this rebuild was to get the good, young, CHEAP assets that would allow the Sox to do what we’ve been told for 20years that they couldn’t...sign the big time players to pair with them. This is how you execute a rebuild. And if it means you overpay for a guy, you overpay. That is the luxury you have afforded yourselves. More importantly, for those not mathematically inclined. You can front load a guy who you have concerns about as he ages. That’s actually the best way to do it. Their salary is absorbed while the young guys are cheapest and that salary declines as the other rises. This is not rocket science gentlemen, this is business. If all this rebuild was was to net good young players and then we’re going to trot out bums with those guys, or worse, expect them all to not only pan out but do so immediately AND be good enough to win a WS, you’re all sadly mistaking. It doesn’t take much time to look at what we have vs the teams that are already better (and adding more to the mix - ie NYY/Cole) and see that we haven’t separated ourselves. At all. Several teams have just as many potential stars as we do, some of which are even better. It puts us back where we have been so many times. Very good/great players scattered amongst guys who aren’t very good. But you’re all so excited to see this come together you’re losing sight of the big picture. Now in saying all this (and coming out of message board read-only retirement to do so) I think it’s premature to shop either. I don’t think the logic is wrong, in that, they’re ready now and we’re quasi-competitive (potentially) this season and next (without a shocking trade/Betts signing). People need to take into account learning curves and failure rates. Especially with the SP and guys like Vaughn. Advanced bat or not, Vlad Jr has an 80 hit tool and struggled last season. So even if those guys reach their ceilings along the way, it may not be overnight and thus, the OP isn’t far off. I just don’t think it’s now, barring offers that far exceed the very good ones he laid out. Those should be considered at any time, for any team. All of this is before we factor in that the Sox are demonstrating, once again, that many of these guys will only see one contract here (should they live up to their hype) because we simply cannot afford them all and have no interest in signing big contracts. I’m with you all. I’m excited for the future but I am incredibly shocked and disappointed in the full opportunity we’re missing out on. The Sox knew this a year ago when going to for Harper/Machado. Not all the sudden this isn’t a necessity or a smart move? Nah, I’m not buying it. They are an arrogant bunch. The Machado circus proves that much. They didn’t expect that and they figured they learned their lesson would offer max for Wheeler. He spurned them. They didn’t expect it. Now they’re scrambling & dealing prospects away prematurely to their own plans. We, collectively, need to understand this and continue to apply whatever minimal pressure they can feel from a fan base to insure they push for Betts & co. If we hit our true window in 21’ and this is all we have, we may make it there one day but you guys will be severely disappointed in the results overall. Idk about you guys but I didn’t support this rebuild so we can “catch fire” like 05’ and play the other years like a slightly better version of 01-04’. I supported it bc the expectation was we’d be dominant. That is what the ceiling could be. That is what they’re wasting. That’s why the OP wants to move 2 very good guys for 8+ more good guys that are 1-2 years away. It’s not wrong, but it may be premature.

Hard to see this being a fit today. Another example of the "why?" not making sense. He would certainly fit in the long-term plans being controlled for cheap and being young. But at the cost? Spend two years on a bad team? You can potentially buy him next year for less. I'd really like to avoid seeing the Sox make any significant deals right now unless it costs them next to nothing. Taking on salary would be the best, and likely, the only way to accomplish this. So if the Marlins want a Dane Dunning like package provided we eat Prado or something - fine by me. Anything on the higher end, we should pass. I know we're all antsy and excited but I hope we stay the course. Develop what we have, sell our assets for prospects, take our lumps as we bring kids up, draft top 5 in 18' and hopefully 19'. Make a run at some FA in 18' or 19'. Don't sell anything of value off that farm. If we're smart, take a flyer on a couple low-end upside guys and hope to sell them at the deadline. Right now, we have a great farm. Figure out a way to add another 5-10 guys (Figured at least 1 from each of Abreu/Avi, 18' and 19' top 5 picks, etc) to it that would be top 10 elsewhere and you're truly onto something that you can sustain long-term. If you cut loose guys now - you're asking for this to blow up in your face. Guys will fail. It happens. It's inevitable. Depth will win out. Stay the course.

This is not a smart deal. Let's face it. People need to contain their excitement over having him and recognize there is a very real & extremely high-risk here. You cannot deal elite prospects for that in our position. Sure, if it pans out and he signs an extension, we'll all be happy. No question. But you're a heavy underdog in that bet today. To me, this has Miggy written all over it. Baltimore is using us (and a former beat writer) to drive up the other offers. Other teams have to respect the Sox farm (and aggressiveness in the front office) and they probably did not expect us to enter the sweepstakes when making their offers. We won't really know until the names/offers are leaked. Until that time, it's all speculation, and that helps one team - the Orioles. Now maybe the offers really do suck and we have the strongest. That'd be great. I just don't foresee that to include a Kopech level talent. Fulmer, Adams, Dunning, etc? Sure. Giolito, Lopez & Hansen? Meh. I'll stomach it but I wouldn't want to deal any of the three for a rental. Maybe his agent has informed the Sox he is open to an extension and given him an idea of what they'll be asking for. Idk. None of us do. But we have a path we are following. Seems odd to disrupt it with this level of risk associated.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 01:35 PM) Just want to throw this out there in case this misconception about Q still exists that he doesn't go very far into games. Last year Chris Sale lead the AL in outs per start at 21. There were a bunch of guys tied for 2nd with 20 outs per start including Q. That's another one of those glass half-full vs half-empty type stats. Q has that reputation to an extent, but I think that is mainly just Sox fans who have watched him w/frustration over the years. He has 1 complete game I think for his career, which is what I think people mean. It's a very "Q" type statistic because it just reinforces that he isn't great, but he is consistently good. His extreme's, in this case, like a pitcher who throws a CG or gets bombed before the 4th inning don't exist and he settles in the middle with several "20 out" outings. Similar to the rebuttles to his WAR argument. Which is that, sure "over the last three years he is a top 10 WAR pitcher" but he has never finished top 10 in a season (at least per BR). Once again, it demonstrates that he is very good and consistent but he lacks the upside to be "elite" in the eyes of other organizations. Or it at least gives them ammunition/leverage for negotiating his trade. Someone recently posted that they had potentially 20 guys they'd be willing to take ahead of him and that person was likely correct. Whether we want to ACCEPT it or not is entirely up to you, but there are 20 guys out there that are either already better or have more upside than Q. Most teams, right or wrong, will lean towards the upside at the level where Q is. They can "fix" the flaws for that guy to reach his potential being the logic. So while that is a nice stat, and I, personally, think in today's day-in-age with bullpens this should increase his value to teams. You also mentioned it was Sale + a bunch of guys at 20 in the AL. Depending on what "a bunch" means and how many guys we add from the NL, it may be less important than we think. I'd imagine there is a lot with 19 as well. Which circles us back to the "upside" debate that teams will make there. 1 more out everytime, or the potential to go 9 good ones when it counts.

I'm shocked that someone genuinely believes Garcia is better than Dickerson. The Gonzalez vs Cobb is a debate in itself and I, too, believe he will regress but not sure he'll implode.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 22, 2017 -> 11:35 PM) Kershaw Synder Lester Arrieta Sale Bumgarner Scherzer Porcello Kluber Cueto Carrasco Urias Price Darvish C Martinez Cole Degrom Tanaka Verlander Fulmer Again, this is JUST 2017. Quintana's age and contract have no power in this world. You could go either way on a few of them, but theres your 20. There are more guys (Teheran, Paxton, Roark, Hendricks etc.) that are debatable as well. Q is fringe T20 starter in baseball. "Best understood" Ha. Explain WAR in fewer words than batting average. And where are you getting this 10th best player in baseball from? He's the 11th best starter by WAR. Ofc the BEST UNDERSTOOD statistic in baseball has two different kinds depending on the site you're on, this is not an issue other LESS UNDERSTOOD statistics have. Q is consistently good. His best WAR season of 5.2 puts him in the convo during a single season as a top 10-15 arm (since 5+ is pretty much your benchmark for WAR top 10). His 4.2 WAR average during this 3 year stretch may add up to a top 10 total but he's never actually finished in the top 10, which is why he isn't great. He finished 11th, 16th and 30th during those 3 seasons. Which puts him just inside the top 20 if we average it out. Teams want upside, Q offers little upside beyond what we saw last season. He is what he is. It isn't bad, it's the opposite in fact. He just doesn't show that he possesses the ability to get to 6+, 7+, 8+ WAR as some other guys have done during this stretch. Here is an example, Tanner Roark. He has bested Q in 2 of the last 3 seasons for WAR. Yet, many of you would not have even entertained his name in this conversation. Fact is, Roark finished top 10 in 14' and 16' and Q never has. So who is better? You will, however, be hard pressed to not put Q in your top 20 because he has proven he'll be in the mix somewhere. Whether it's 11th or 30th. Meanwhile, guys from season to season fall behind or jump ahead. Whether it's injury, struggles, fluke luck, etc those players have greater extreme's than Q. So it depends if you want the reliable luxury sedan or the unreliable sports car. I could easily see other people not including him and I wouldn't have a problem. Enough evidence exists to make a case against him. It's all about upside and teams seek that out. Q, because he doesn't possess the electric stuff, will always be perceived as a guy who can't overpower teams and take over a game on his own. Simply, the other guys have higher ceilings but most have lower floors than Q. Teams are willing to pay more for the ceiling because they all think their staff can maxamize it. It's easier said than done. Q meanwhile needs to repeat his 5 WAR season before he can be in the conversation for anything more than fringe. If he becomes an average 5 WAR arm, he certainly would be in the discussion for top 10-15. If 5 is just his peak, then he isn't. I don't think the Sox are too far off-base with whatever they're asking for because his contract warrants an increase in value, but he isn't Chris Sale. So I understand why teams aren't lining up w/their best guys to get this done. We need to lay off the one lone stat in Q's favor and temper expectations. A GM may be desperate enough or enamored with his ability + contract enough to pay a hefty price, but that doesn't make him a top 10 arm in baseball.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 21, 2017 -> 07:56 PM) Ummm...in the end, it was the cumulative haul from those two trades, made possible by playing Boston and Washington against each other. But I guess there will always be Sox fans who will swear Hahn screwed up because he should have gotten Benintendi, Robles or Devers as well. As opposed to Sox fans who think the deals are a victory before any of these flawed prospects have played a full MLB season. I don't blame Hahn, because I don't think he had clearance. However, this organization won't turn this around as quickly as they couldve if the firesale was last offseason.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 19, 2017 -> 11:24 PM) Its not just the lack of movement on Quintana, its the lack of movement or rumors on ANYONE. Jettisoning Eaton and Sale will definitely make the White Sox bad but keeping Melky, Fraz, Abreu, Jones and Quintana will be enough to prevent them from being completely hopeless (keeping Robertson does offset this a little I guess) and almost surely out of the #1 overall pick and probably top 5. So anyone counting on a big time position player in the 2018 draft may want to reconsider and lower their expectation to college pitcher or flawed bat pretty soon. This is one of the many faults with holding everyone until the deadline. Agreed. And this is not a class I'd want to miss it on...if we have a chance at a top 1-2 pick - sell whatever you need to and throw James Shields on short rest all season.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:20 PM) I f***ing hate the mindset that trading for too much pitching is a bad thing. Do you guys remember how much trash was in the back end of the rotation during the Sale/Q days? Humber, Paulino, Danks, Latos, Noesi, Shields, just to name a few. That is one of the main reasons why those teams were never any good. The back end of the rotation was a black hole. Having a full 5 man rotation that has talent and potential is the real goal here. I'm absolutely okay with the Sox acquiring Glasnow/Keller if they get Bell, Newman, Hayes, etc. Your feeling of never having too much pitching isn't invalid...except this time. If you're lucky, these guys pan out. Hard to imagine any are as dominant as Sale, but hopefully they are. Both Sale and Q were top 10 WAR arms, which has been mentioned over and over. WAR isn't the end-all and be-all, but for the sake of discussion that is what you're shooting for. So lets say two of them do. You're in a worse situation than we were the last several years. Because once Abreu/Frazier/etc are gone and Eaton already is - you've replaced it with one guy, Moncada. Now I'm sure you're thinking that this rotation will be deeper but that still doesn't solve the fundamental problem of this organization, which is their inability to develop hitting. You needed hitting prospects. Fine. You maxed out on arms, and that has tremendous potential value, but my god man. You desperately need star-power hitting. And advanced hitting at that. Not projects like Basabe. Sit and point your finger at the lack of success from the guys you mentioned, but it won't mean s*** when we still cannot score runs. Gonzalez pitched well last season. So you had 4 good to great starters last season - with much better hitting than what 2018-2019 projects to be. This is your last big bullet and you need hitting. End of story. If you settle for more arms because its the best value, so be it, but Hahn better know something we don't about out payroll for those years and you better be spending it on offense because you cannot put together a team with 10 starters. Sorry bud - not how baseball works.

Yikes.

QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Jan 3, 2017 -> 02:59 PM) 2018 is supposed to be a really strong draft for college prospects. 2017 wouldn't be a bad year to tank. Some very good prospects that I anticipate the Sox have a crack at. Potentially franchise altering from what I have seen and read. A bad season should net us a Bryant-type hitter that this "firesale" and system severely lack. From what we've seen trade-wise, they desperately need to be top 2.

Not a fan. He's improving on the fly at the MLB level. He's developed and increased the usage of his secondary pitches. The guy is a kid learning to pitch, not just overpower. His results may be inconsistent but all signs point to this guys being one of the best in baseball. Hard to not see him as a #2-#3 already. We wouldn't be selling low, because I think his value will still be paid on an open market, but we'd certainly be caving prematurely. I think he's just as, or more, untouchable than the guys we constantly see put in that category. He's the most logical guy to keep in my opinion.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 3, 2017 -> 10:14 AM) After the Sox trade Q and Robertson and Frazier or Melky, it's going to be really hard to be a White Sox fan. The team will absolutely suck, and next offseason there will be very little action. They will not have much to trade. They won't be signing big names. And you enjoyed the last decade?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Dec 15, 2016 -> 10:00 AM) I dont think its a coincidence that the only 2 players who have been moved so far are "Drake" fans. Well see how this all goes, but there is definitely a chance that the "rebuild" was being used to distract from the real agenda, getting rid of the outspoken "Drake" fans. I agree. Makes me uneasy if true.

I'd like to see them continue. I don't think what we have on the farm will get us over the proverbial hump. There is simply not enough PROVEN positional talent down there. I am definitely not upset about the hauls we have gotten so far, but I am in the contingency that feels we desperately needed offense and didn't remotely get enough of it. So from that standpoint, I don't feel like this "rebuild" is a success yet on paper. Doesn't take away anything from the guys we have gotten, the reality is that we all are well aware of the lack of hitting/positional talent this organization has produced. I'm not sold on Tim Anderson being a superstar as some of your hope he becomes or feel he is. I don't care about his efforts in season 1. As I mentioned in another thread, we've seen Beckham, Dayan, Josh Fields, etc all come up and have solid halves that first year. The league will make adjustments, and TA will need to as well. From an eye-test perspective, the ball jumps. Can't deny it. But he needs to improve any way you slice it before he is considered a WS team centerpiece. Right now, I think he'll be a very good starter, but I don't think the expectation should be that he an Moncada are going to be the Bryant/Rizzo or Correa/Altuve combo that other teams have. That means, you need those kind of pieces in your organization. I don't foresee the Sox spending 300 million to go get a Machado (or more for Harper). That's a pipe dream for an organization that isn't known to commit to a players like that. So, ultimately, we aren't going to be where we want to be or where the hope of this rebuild will put us until you get more. Keep dealing. Sign some guys. Deal some more if they pan out. Draft well. When the time comes, some of these guys are up and we see what we have, package some guys from your rebuilt farm and acquire talent (preferably young controllable) where you're lacking. That is my hope for this.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 15, 2016 -> 12:31 PM) The Cardinals make a lot of sense as the third wheel in a trade. They really need another OF, and Blackmon or Cargo would fit perfectly and they could provide pieces that the Sox would value so the Sox would not need to strip away too many of their own prospects. Something like: Cardinals get: Blackmon Rockies get: Reyes and Quintana Sox get: Rodgers, Hoffman, Tapia, Sosa, Kelly If the Rockies truly are holding out until they get an Adam Eaton type offer, it'll never happen. He hits more bombs but he's been an average of a 3 WAR player the last 3 years. Eaton was what? A 5 WAR average? Not to mention his splits are iffy. His power plays home and away, but everything else nosedives 60+ points. His BABIP in Colorado for his career is obscene. It's like .360+, his road BABIP is .297, which is around league average I believe. So his splits on the road aren't unlucky, they're actually pretty accurate to the player he likely is. The Cardinals, to me, wouldn't make that deal. With the climate of overvaluing prospects/first year guys, Reyes is probably not even being considered as something they would deal straight up for Blackmon. I'd love the haul for the Sox but I think we'd have to include something of significance to STL (like a Frazier or Abreu). And frankly, if it got us a package like that, I wouldn't mind.

QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 12:37 PM) Some guys that I would like the team to sign are Greg Holland and Tyson Ross. If the Sox sign them along with Derek Holland, they can flip them at the deadline and clean up assuming that they have productive years. Theo and Jed made a killing making these type of moves Bingo. It sounds silly/video game like but it's the right thing to do if you're truly committed to rebuilding. You sell off your assets for whatever (which we are doing) but then you fill your roster with guys who can be good everyday players and make your team not as pathetic as people would assume. Those guys are boom/bust types. The two Holland's, Ross, Rasmus, s*** even a guy like Bautista. You don't want to go too crazy and build a max 80 win team that kills your draft status by fluke luck, but most of these guys will be off your roster by midseason so you'll come back down to earth. Theo has done this. Scott Feldman, as an example, was signed to a 1 year 6 mill offer in 2012 - he was turned into Strop and Arrieta. This is a process you can do a couple times over the next few years. Fill the voids and sell the voids. Once your group is ready, make your real moves to contend.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 12:36 AM) Exactly. And i think you two are hitting on a key point- our outfield prospects, outside of our pitching prospects, represents the true depth of our system. While the names aren't sexy first rounders for the most part, there are a ton of sleeper potential Allstars in our system. Tilson, Engel, Call, Basabe & Fisher are worthy of excitement. Each has some super plus tools that with a lil luck the Sox hit a homerun. The next tier has more limited potential but you never know: Avi, Coats, Hawkins, May. That's why I think it's Bregman or bust with Houston. Bregman, TA, Moncada & Abreu is pure beast. 3 MVP candidates maybe. Elite Catcher or 3B for Q. No more outfielders. No Tucker #f***Tuck I'd love Bregman. Doesn't appear to be happening. Abreu I can't imagine as being in the White Sox plans. Not is he or TA an MVP candidate (not even maybe). I'll wager none of the five outfielders you mentioned are ever allstars. Temper your expectations. You're excited, a lot of us are. But you're talking extreme ceilings with some guys and non-existant ones with others. I'd say, just to be fair, that in some cases it is too early to tell on guys like Call but we need to get real. Most of these guys are long shots at best. Tucker is a good looking prospect. Far better than everyone you mentioned. He may not be Bregman but he is easily Basabe and more.

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 01:12 PM) I sure hope, but why would a team give up a top 50 guy for Robertson? My bad. I should've been more clear. If he reverts to old form during the early season, that David Robertson of old, should be able to net a top 50 guy. I don't think he'll net a top 30 guy like Chapman and Miller received, not do I think he warrants as large of a package. But if he throws well he could net us (1) good prospect. I don't think that is a stretch given the climate for closers. To me his value is low because of the performance and contract. His contract is now not the same burden it was, based off what these guys are getting paid. So it's purely a performance issue. If he comes out and throws well, I don't think it's unreasonable to get (1) player in that range. Especially from a deeper system.

I'd let him rebuild value after seeing what teams got at the deadline last season/paid this offseason. Robertson isn't remotely on Miller, Chapman or Jansen's level but he should be able to net at least (1) top 50 caliber prospect. I don't foresee a situation (unless he has 30 shutout innings at the deadline) where he gets much better than that. Never know though. If you're getting significantly less value right now, then I'd hold him. Same can be said for Jones. He needs to repeat last season or improve before he is even on that level. I'd hang onto him unless someone is already offering that perceived internal value they have. Everyone else can go.

QUOTE (WBWSF @ Dec 9, 2016 -> 07:08 AM) 1)I read where a couple of the pitching prospects the White Sox received the past few days have already had arm injuries. This is what we gave up 2 of our best players for. I wish I could put a better spin on this situation but I can't. I'm really worried that this franchise is going to return to the days of the 1968-1970 White Sox teams. I figure after a couple of 100 loss seasons we might be hearing rumblings of the franchise moving out of state and most people won't care if they leave. 2) I grew up in a family of White Sox fans and Chicago Cardinals fans. My older relatives always talked how the Chicago Cardinals traded off their best players in the late 1950s for bums. They traded future Hall of Famers Ollie Matson and Night Train Lane for a bunch of stiffs. The team was so bad during the 1950s (they averages 2 wins a year during the 1950s) that when they moved to St. Louis there was no sense of loss in the Chicagoland area. 3) I keep reading that the team is going to trade Quintana, Abreu, Cabrera, Robertson and Frazier. I have no doubt if that happens this team might challenge the 1962 Mets as the worse team ever in modern history. Maybe some people want to see this, but I sure don't. This team will become as bad as a expansion team. 4) Some people have posted that the new TV contract comes up before the 2019 season. After 2 bad 2017+2018 seasons does anybody really think that some TV station is going to give the White Sox a big TV contract? 5) I hope my above comments don't depress some people. Believe me, I want nothing better than to be wrong about my feelings. I really fear for the worse for this White Sox franchise. I simply don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. 1) In this day and age, TJ is as close to a good thing as you can have for an injury. And while I agree there are concerns, it is related more to their play/projectability that concern me. Everyone is nitpicking the best case scenario on these guys and we're setting ourselves up for failure. We'll see if Coop can right Giolito, harness Kopech and develop the others. I have some faith in our staff with arms but there are quite a few failed experiments as well. The injury part of it is secondary. 2) this isnt 1950. There is a science to a lot of what people do now to give them the most informed decision on prospects. This isn't solely an eye test. The Sox have acquired some good pieces. Not nearly enough but some good ones. 3) yeah they're going to be bad, but it's for a purpose. Band-aiding teams to win 90 on paper has failed over and over. And people werent coming out in droves then. Additionally, you have from what I understand are two of the best college prospects in the last 15 years in this draft class. The first pick in 2018 will be a an important one. Bryce Harper / Kris Bryant important. 4) I agree and disagree. It may hurt but it may help. If you're selling the unknown, having the number 1 farm system is definitely leverage. The life of the contract will cover those kids and their primes, I'm sure no one wants to make a mistake like that if things should pan out. 5) Not depressing comments. People need to wake up. Some of us are excited and some aren't, but it's the reality of what is happening and what was needed. But people can't keep going to the extreme's either for their side of the debate. We are not remotely as good as say the Cubs are or were in their farm. Stop talking about Basabe like he is even remotely an elite player. He isn't nor does he project to be. And on the flip side we aren't going to fold up the franchise from sucking. Regardless of everything, this is what they're doing so lets see it play out.

QUOTE (peppers312 @ Dec 8, 2016 -> 04:23 PM) so if you're not looking at what a closer has already done, it seems like everyone's rationale is this how you evaluate a closer... 1. FIP 2. WHIP 3. K/9 4. BB/9 4. Saves 5. ERA ?? I'd flip saves and ERA. K/9 I'd leave. BB/9 ties into your WHIP so that can drop as well. Saves are obviously the old school way of saying who shut the door. But it requires equal opportunities. Cubs won 100+ games but blew teams out a lot. Does that make Chapman less valuable than someone who had more? It doesn't tell the story about the pitcher. FIP at least tries to isolate things down to an even playing field, where bad defense from one team to another isn't hindering an ERA. In saying that, casual fans will always look for saves. The same way they look at wins/losses. It's just much more evolved now if you want a true individual performance gauge.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 8, 2016 -> 11:31 AM) The patience won't last until April 1st, or until next week really. I think people confuse the small amount of people paying attention during the winter meetings to the general fanbase. It'll get ugly, and sooner than later. I agree with you. This board is a small sample size of the fanbase. Much of what I have heard has been contrary to the excitement that the OP wrote. A large contingency of every fan base sees things differently from the rest. They care more about the star players, the team, going to games and couldn't care less about prospects. Those people are the ones who are sad about Sale and Eaton, eventually the rest. I heard so many people call into 670/1000 that sounded genuinely depressed and since they don't follow prospects, it's confusing to them what we're doing. They just see it as get rid of the bad guys and add more good ones. Or worse, they like guys like Saladino who don't belong in a lineup everyday for a WS caliber team. Using my own personal relationships as an example, my dad is old school. He doesn't care about the sabermetrics or prospects and what not. It was irrevelant to him growing up so it isn't something he proactively wants to learn. He thinks the front office kept messing up and this is the result. That group of people are the unhappy ones. They aren't going to suddenly become guys who follow prospects or dive deeper into stats - they're just going to be angry. To your point, it's going to get uglier before it gets better.

I'd like to see the Sox take flier's on guys. To me, the best thing they can do is sell off what they have and sign some upside guys to fill the roster. The Derek Holland's of the world we've been linked to. A Pedro Alvarez type. Guys who would have value midseason to deal or at least be a reason to watch. You'll have excess payroll available - spend some of it. In this particular case, deal Robertson and Jones. Use some of our money to sign a guy like Greg Holland. Pressure free environment for him to get his bearings straight coming off TJ, deal him at the deadline for more prospects. Keep this thing moving. I feel like we're doing a lot of good things but this is an additional opportunity presented by selling and not having those prospects ready to come up immediately. You have holes and you'll need to fill them with MLB talent. Go get several of these boom/bust types. Especially bullpen arms and bats. I feel like our rotation will be open for competition with the youngsters so no need to worry too much there. You already have Shields/Gonzo that could be this type of player to sell if they perform.