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White sox may be reconsidering their stance of being non sellers

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QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:17 AM)
KW is Hahn's boss. Hahn has wanted to rebuild and was overridden by KW and JR.

I don't love Hahn, but I would be for canning Williams and letting Hahn facilitate the rebuild.

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IF the sox are a player away, they may be more likely to spend some of their addiitional prospects for their top pitcher, vs. signing a lester at top price ala cubs. They have luxury to do that with their attendance/payroll. Sox may sell on a Soler instead.

 

Can we stop acting like cubs are only good because of Arrieta? That team is loaded. 2 years ago look how many on here were laughing at Baez and how much he can't hit. Now we'd trade Sale for him. They have young talented players all over the system.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:10 AM)
This is actually a great example. Anyone expect the Sox to lay down $150 million for a player to take them to the next level after a rebuild? Yeah, me neither.

They'd still be really good with out Lester. But this isn't about what the Cubs have done it's about what the Sox have done. This half assed all in method hasn't worked for 7 years now and I bet a half assed rebuild would end with the same results. I get the people that want to build around our cost controlled stars but guess what, this is the 5th year now that Q and Sale have been starting together and we have 0 playoff appearances out of it. That obviously isn't an indictment on either of those guys but if we haven't been able to build a contender around them yet, it's not going to happen. Like I've said before, I have no clue if a full on rebuild is going to work but I do know what's not going to work with this management. Burn this s*** down.

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QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:17 AM)
KW is Hahn's boss. Hahn has wanted to rebuild and was overridden by KW and JR.

That's so weird as there were stories 4 years ago that KW wanted to rebuild but JR told him no.

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QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:20 AM)
I would assume it involved a pretty big raise.

Unbelievable......

 

Here we go again. Hahn the idiot who turned down all the offers from other teams just so he can make money and do nothing for the White sox.

 

He must be on solitaire win 10,724 for the year by now.

 

yeesh.

 

Obviously, people on this board think that making money while showing no ambition or will to succeed is the way to go in life.

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QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:20 AM)
I would assume it involved a pretty big raise.

 

A big raise for darn near career suicide? He's been in the org for a while now, he must have know the way JR operates and how he let KW run things when he was assistant GM, but Hahn had interviews with other orgs. It's crazy to sit here and say he took a job somehow not knowing how the org works or that he was surprised last minute and had his hand tied. He absolutely knew how things are run in Sox FO. Hahn is huge part of this mess, just like KW and JR are. So of course I have no confidence the same guys who got us here will get us out.

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QUOTE (TheTruth05 @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 12:19 PM)
So Hahn took a job where KW would use him as a puppet?

 

Have you ever had a boss before?

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:49 AM)
People aren't going to be able to deal with a full rebuild. Just look at the facts. 2014 was a rebuilding season, how many people complained about Konerko taking the 25th spot and ruining "roster construction"? They weren't going to win, I thought people didn't care. And many who have said this season is over are complaining Jacob Turner is starting tonight. That's what you get in a rebuild. Guys like Jacob Turner starting, for years.

 

Dick, you should be thrilled we're getting a rebuild. Think about how many terrible specious talking points you could use!

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Trading Sale scares me to be honest. I was looking back at the Randy Johnson trade in 1998. Seattle didn't do bad getting Garcia, Guillen and Halama. They went on to combine for 33.3 WAR in a Seattle uniform. That being said, RJ's next 7 seasons of WAR were 9,8,10,11,1,9,6. And RJ was traded at age 34! Obviously he's an anomaly, but still, makes you think.

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I don't know who wanted what, but whoever ordered that the rebuilding, that had begun in 2013, be aborted, needs to be fired. And if that was JR, he needs to see reality and/or sel.

But when I read that JR had to be "convinced" to pay for Shields, it's clear that he's not the only one with his head in the sand.

 

Now I'm not overly confident in this rebuild. I'm not sure that the front office is properly staffed with the analytics and particularly the eyes for talent, and appropriate numbers that can cover the farm systems of the teams the Sox need to be looking at. Anyone can look at stats, but those can be deceiving, if not irrelevant, for a lot of prospect analysis.

There are only 10 days left, and several of these players need to be moved, particularly the bullpen guys.

sounds like they are still deciding.

 

As for Preller, he effed up for one off-season then reversed course; and in the case of Kimbrall, he received more than he paid, so he's on a road to redemption. Maybe Hahn can do it.

Edited by GreenSox

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:20 AM)
That's so weird as there were stories 4 years ago that KW wanted to rebuild but JR told him no.

 

This. I think it's always been a JR thing, more than a KW thing.

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QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:26 AM)
Trading Sale scares me to be honest. I was looking back at the Randy Johnson trade in 1998. Seattle didn't do bad getting Garcia, Guillen and Halama. They went on to combine for 33.3 WAR in a Seattle uniform. That being said, RJ's next 7 seasons of WAR were 9,8,10,11,1,9,6. And RJ was traded at age 34! Obviously he's an anomaly, but still, makes you think.

 

That's not even a comparable situation at all though. When the Mariners traded RJ he had two months left on his contract and they were completely out of contention. He then signed a massive contract in the off season so the Mariners probably would have lost him anyways.

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QUOTE (TheTruth05 @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:25 AM)
A big raise for darn near career suicide? He's been in the org for a while now, he must have know the way JR operates and how he let KW run things when he was assistant GM, but Hahn had interviews with other orgs. It's crazy to sit here and say he took a job somehow not knowing how the org works or that he was surprised last minute and had his hand tied. He absolutely knew how things are run in Sox FO. Hahn is huge part of this mess, just like KW and JR are. So of course I have no confidence the same guys who got us here will get us out.

Bless you.

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:30 AM)
This. I think it's always been a JR thing, more than a KW thing.

 

 

Always figured it was the owner since he's old.

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QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 12:30 PM)
That's not even a comparable situation at all though. When the Mariners traded RJ he had two months left on his contract and they were completely out of contention. He then signed a massive contract in the off season so the Mariners probably would have lost him anyways.

 

Clearly very different from a contract (and age) perspective. Just showing an example of future WAR versus what was obtained in return.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:42 AM)
I won't be bummed to keep Sale and Q. Still have the rotation set for four years basically with that.

 

Davidson and Avi should be warnings of "we'll just trade for a Top 100 prospect and they'll plug in automatically."

 

This is the stuff that drives me nuts.

 

You're 100% correct that those two, in particular, suck. But your comment/opinion is so far off-base.

 

If the Sox are selling, you're acquiring "Elite prospects" in my eyes. Guys who are top 10, 20, 30 and in some cases 40 overall in baseball. But something about them is ELITE. Most of them would come from Sale and Q deals, I pray somehow they can max out value on Frazier, Robertson, Abreu and Eaton to at least get 1 guy on that level.

 

Those guys being acquired, in most cases, are guys who have proven success in the minors or college and are ready for the show. Their chances of not panning out are still there but far less. The expectation is this guy's floor is still a serviceable mlb player. Their peak are guys like Bryant, Fernandez, etc. That is the goal here.

 

There is a major difference between the guys up at the top of those lists and the guys at the bottom. You'll always have guys who don't pan out, but if you want to build a real contender...The Trouts, Harpers, Strasberg's etc come from the top. That is what you're attacking when you're selling these types of talents.

 

Davidson was never remotely in that realm. I think his highest ranking was mid-70's. Which is a good prospect but it also tells you a lot. When you talk about Davidson and using him as an example for what the Sox should do, you're comparing the chances at acquiring a Machado to acquiring a Zach Cozart. I used Cozart because he actually is playing well, and that's what you hope when you get a guy like him, but it requires far more development. He'll also never be on the same planet as Machado and there is a higher risk of not panning out - like a Davidson.

 

Garcia is in the same boat. Very flawed prospect. Detroit loved him, which is great, but no one else seemingly did. He reminds me of Lyle Mouton. This big guy with hype and couldn't hit the ball out of the park if he hit from 2nd base.

 

I fully expect the Sox to get several of these types of players if they sell. Which isn't a bad thing if they get a handful of elite prospects. Then you aren't relying on those Davidson's to save your farm/franchise. But the core of what you're acquiring needs to be proven commodities on other teams. Prospects who have dominated, not played well/ok and show promise. Not guys with one pitch and nothing else. You're getting guys like Urias who ceiling is an ace and floor appears to be a middle rotation arm.

 

My biggest fear is the Sox go after the wrong talent at the top. The 5 tool guys that have been a staple of Kenny Williams failures. If you do, his biggest strength better be his bat because we struggle developing offense. Guys who hit the ball with regularity, and do it well, and can play good defense. Load up with bats. I don't care if the guy has an 80 for speed or 80 for an arm. I want the guys who can play.

 

My other concern is you get too young of players who we are forced to develop. Too much can go wrong in that timespan. The younger they are, the less sample size you have, the higher the risk. San Diego did the right thing for them. They dealt a guy who never has thrown 100 innings, cost them nothing to acquire, and they went boom or bust on a young highly talented arm. The Sox need to be acquiring that same caliber arm AFTER he has proven himself, developed secondary stuff and is ready to come up. That is the major difference here.

 

Some of those guys will likely come in trades, but they just can't be what you're banking on to resurrect the franchise.

 

But back to the original point, you can't look at the past failures of the Sox acquisitions because most of them were what they could get for what they dealt. We got Avi for Peavy, who was 32, declining and frankly sucked 3 of 4 years here. We got Davidson for Reed, who was a 1 year wonder basically as a closer.

 

This time is a whole different animal. You're selling very good/star players in their primes for several "can't miss" type guys who will be on your roster in 2016 or 2017. Maybe 2018 latest. The middle-tier Davidsons that round out packages hopefully are guys you hope pan out, or they get moved for an MLB player when the time is right.

 

 

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QUOTE (HeGone7 @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 12:48 PM)
This is the stuff that drives me nuts.

 

You're 100% correct that those two, in particular, suck. But your comment/opinion is so far off-base.

 

If the Sox are selling, you're acquiring "Elite prospects" in my eyes. Guys who are top 10, 20, 30 and in some cases 40 overall in baseball. But something about them is ELITE. Most of them would come from Sale and Q deals, I pray somehow they can max out value on Frazier, Robertson, Abreu and Eaton to at least get 1 guy on that level.

 

Those guys being acquired, in most cases, are guys who have proven success in the minors or college and are ready for the show. Their chances of not panning out are still there but far less. The expectation is this guy's floor is still a serviceable mlb player. Their peak are guys like Bryant, Fernandez, etc. That is the goal here.

 

There is a major difference between the guys up at the top of those lists and the guys at the bottom. You'll always have guys who don't pan out, but if you want to build a real contender...The Trouts, Harpers, Strasberg's etc come from the top. That is what you're attacking when you're selling these types of talents.

 

Davidson was never remotely in that realm. I think his highest ranking was mid-70's. Which is a good prospect but it also tells you a lot. When you talk about Davidson and using him as an example for what the Sox should do, you're comparing the chances at acquiring a Machado to acquiring a Zach Cozart. I used Cozart because he actually is playing well, and that's what you hope when you get a guy like him, but it requires far more development. He'll also never be on the same planet as Machado and there is a higher risk of not panning out - like a Davidson.

 

Garcia is in the same boat. Very flawed prospect. Detroit loved him, which is great, but no one else seemingly did. He reminds me of Lyle Mouton. This big guy with hype and couldn't hit the ball out of the park if he hit from 2nd base.

 

I fully expect the Sox to get several of these types of players if they sell. Which isn't a bad thing if they get a handful of elite prospects. Then you aren't relying on those Davidson's to save your farm/franchise. But the core of what you're acquiring needs to be proven commodities on other teams. Prospects who have dominated, not played well/ok and show promise. Not guys with one pitch and nothing else. You're getting guys like Urias who ceiling is an ace and floor appears to be a middle rotation arm.

 

My biggest fear is the Sox go after the wrong talent at the top. The 5 tool guys that have been a staple of Kenny Williams failures. If you do, his biggest strength better be his bat because we struggle developing offense. Guys who hit the ball with regularity, and do it well, and can play good defense. Load up with bats. I don't care if the guy has an 80 for speed or 80 for an arm. I want the guys who can play.

 

My other concern is you get too young of players who we are forced to develop. Too much can go wrong in that timespan. The younger they are, the less sample size you have, the higher the risk. San Diego did the right thing for them. They dealt a guy who never has thrown 100 innings, cost them nothing to acquire, and they went boom or bust on a young highly talented arm. The Sox need to be acquiring that same caliber arm AFTER he has proven himself, developed secondary stuff and is ready to come up. That is the major difference here.

 

Some of those guys will likely come in trades, but they just can't be what you're banking on to resurrect the franchise.

 

But back to the original point, you can't look at the past failures of the Sox acquisitions because most of them were what they could get for what they dealt. We got Avi for Peavy, who was 32, declining and frankly sucked 3 of 4 years here. We got Davidson for Reed, who was a 1 year wonder basically as a closer.

 

This time is a whole different animal. You're selling very good/star players in their primes for several "can't miss" type guys who will be on your roster in 2016 or 2017. Maybe 2018 latest. The middle-tier Davidsons that round out packages hopefully are guys you hope pan out, or they get moved for an MLB player when the time is right.

 

Ok, such as former sure-fire thing Joc Pederson who has crashed and burned since his AS appearance.

 

Or Gordon Beckham, someone that Derek Jeter and Steve Stone would be a multiple MVP award winner and was picked for the 2010s all-decade team, with elite defense and bat speed.

 

I'm not saying don't make the deals, but don't expect them to be surefire successes either.

 

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QUOTE (HeGone7 @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:48 AM)
This is the stuff that drives me nuts.

 

You're 100% correct that those two, in particular, suck. But your comment/opinion is so far off-base.

 

If the Sox are selling, you're acquiring "Elite prospects" in my eyes. Guys who are top 10, 20, 30 and in some cases 40 overall in baseball. But something about them is ELITE. Most of them would come from Sale and Q deals, I pray somehow they can max out value on Frazier, Robertson, Abreu and Eaton to at least get 1 guy on that level.

 

Those guys being acquired, in most cases, are guys who have proven success in the minors or college and are ready for the show. Their chances of not panning out are still there but far less. The expectation is this guy's floor is still a serviceable mlb player. Their peak are guys like Bryant, Fernandez, etc. That is the goal here.

 

There is a major difference between the guys up at the top of those lists and the guys at the bottom. You'll always have guys who don't pan out, but if you want to build a real contender...The Trouts, Harpers, Strasberg's etc come from the top. That is what you're attacking when you're selling these types of talents.

 

Davidson was never remotely in that realm. I think his highest ranking was mid-70's. Which is a good prospect but it also tells you a lot. When you talk about Davidson and using him as an example for what the Sox should do, you're comparing the chances at acquiring a Machado to acquiring a Zach Cozart. I used Cozart because he actually is playing well, and that's what you hope when you get a guy like him, but it requires far more development. He'll also never be on the same planet as Machado and there is a higher risk of not panning out - like a Davidson.

 

Garcia is in the same boat. Very flawed prospect. Detroit loved him, which is great, but no one else seemingly did. He reminds me of Lyle Mouton. This big guy with hype and couldn't hit the ball out of the park if he hit from 2nd base.

 

I fully expect the Sox to get several of these types of players if they sell. Which isn't a bad thing if they get a handful of elite prospects. Then you aren't relying on those Davidson's to save your farm/franchise. But the core of what you're acquiring needs to be proven commodities on other teams. Prospects who have dominated, not played well/ok and show promise. Not guys with one pitch and nothing else. You're getting guys like Urias who ceiling is an ace and floor appears to be a middle rotation arm.

 

My biggest fear is the Sox go after the wrong talent at the top. The 5 tool guys that have been a staple of Kenny Williams failures. If you do, his biggest strength better be his bat because we struggle developing offense. Guys who hit the ball with regularity, and do it well, and can play good defense. Load up with bats. I don't care if the guy has an 80 for speed or 80 for an arm. I want the guys who can play.

 

My other concern is you get too young of players who we are forced to develop. Too much can go wrong in that timespan. The younger they are, the less sample size you have, the higher the risk. San Diego did the right thing for them. They dealt a guy who never has thrown 100 innings, cost them nothing to acquire, and they went boom or bust on a young highly talented arm. The Sox need to be acquiring that same caliber arm AFTER he has proven himself, developed secondary stuff and is ready to come up. That is the major difference here.

 

Some of those guys will likely come in trades, but they just can't be what you're banking on to resurrect the franchise.

 

But back to the original point, you can't look at the past failures of the Sox acquisitions because most of them were what they could get for what they dealt. We got Avi for Peavy, who was 32, declining and frankly sucked 3 of 4 years here. We got Davidson for Reed, who was a 1 year wonder basically as a closer.

 

This time is a whole different animal. You're selling very good/star players in their primes for several "can't miss" type guys who will be on your roster in 2016 or 2017. Maybe 2018 latest. The middle-tier Davidsons that round out packages hopefully are guys you hope pan out, or they get moved for an MLB player when the time is right.

 

 

I didn't read this whole message, but you sort of lost me at trading Eaton and Abreu. That makes literally no sense. Eaton is the kind of guy we need more of, and we have him locked up long term and cheap. Same could have been said about Jose coming into this year, but the man is still a huge bargain and you don't trade him when his value is lowest.

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Are there teams who need catching help? I could see a contender looking at either of our catchers and it making sense for us to move them. Not saying we get much, but we might get a AA relief arm who could be a quality reliever. Avila has a 1 WAR in limited playing time (and a great OBP) so I presume there would be some value there.

 

Navarro is tougher, but you could still maybe take a flyer on a lower level guy with a big arm or something.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:16 AM)
Ok, such as former sure-fire thing Joc Pederson who has crashed and burned since his AS appearance.

 

Or Gordon Beckham, someone that Derek Jeter and Steve Stone would be a multiple MVP award winner and was picked for the 2010s all-decade team, with elite defense and bat speed.

 

I'm not saying don't make the deals, but don't expect them to be surefire successes either.

Yes. Some of these "sure-fire" prospects won't pan out. Some under the radar guys will become relevant. I.e. Frankie Montas. Not that he's established. But Avi crashed and burned and he came pretty much out of nowhere to become one of our top prospects. Some will flourish some won't. That's baseball.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 10:42 AM)
I won't be bummed to keep Sale and Q. Still have the rotation set for four years basically with that.

 

Davidson and Avi should be warnings of "we'll just trade for a Top 100 prospect and they'll plug in automatically."

 

We have had Sale and Q the last 4 years in the rotation and how has that worked out for us??? Sale is a keeper but Q will be here 8 years and probably still be a .500 pitcher. He needs to move on and break his .500 curse. I think Boston will take him for prospects and he could win a Cy Young w their offensive support.

 

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QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 12:29 PM)
We have had Sale and Q the last 4 years in the rotation and how has that worked out for us??? Sale is a keeper but Q will be here 8 years and probably still be a .500 pitcher. He needs to move on and break his .500 curse. I think Boston will take him for prospects and he could win a Cy Young w their offensive support.

 

Through no fault of his own. You are acting like he is the reason

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