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elrockinMT

Not Giving up Yet but ....

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I know folks are frustrated and so am I but I think we can still make a run for that second wild card spot. However, if reality kicks us in the teeth just what is the right way to rebuild? I read the calls for "blow it up" and "trade everyone" and "Fire Robin and all his staff". I am sure the team and ownership knows that there is plenty of blame to go around. However, generally a rebuild means you build around your best and that's what I would like to know from folks in a legitimate planned out fashion. Post your ideas for a 25 man team position by position and who who might legitimately trade for new pieces.

Edited by elrockinMT

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QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 11:47 AM)
I know folks are frustrated and so am I but I think we can still make a run for that second wild card spot. However, if reality kicks us in the teeth just what is the right way to rebuild? I read the calls for "blow it up" and "trade everyone" and "Fire Robin and all his staff". I am sure the team and ownership knows that there is plenty of blame to go around. However, generally a rebuild means you build around your best and that's what I would like to know from folks in a legitimate planned out fashion. Post your ideas for a 25 man team position by position and who who might legitimately trade for new pieces.

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now" - Chinese Proverb

 

Honestly, it should be right now. Crazy things happen at trade deadlines and some of the teams looking at serious postseason prospects will move young talent to achieve their short term goals. Now is the time.

 

I would go position by position, but if we want to be relevant in the near future, it won't be pretty. Eaton, Frazier, Melky, Sale, and Q would be gone. Fulmer and Rodon in the rotation.

Edited by Deadpool

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I think the second wildcard ship has sailed. There are 5 teams that are as good or better than us between the 2nd WC, and one of them is already provisionally selling. The Yankees will join them soon.

 

I don't think its entirely delusional to try to make a run at 2017, but it will require some very creative trading and the same kind of "lightning-in-a-bottle" free agency approach that so many are sick of.

 

The best plan is probably to sell small now, try and get some pieces for 2017 and beyond, and re-evaluate who can contribute in the near term after the season. If FA does not work out for the Sox, or if they tank in early 2017, plan a rebuild.

 

As far as a 25 man roster, that requires a level of rosterbating i'm not comfortable with.

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The best move they can make and the FIRST move is for JR to s***can most of the folks on the baseball side and bring in people from winning organizations to look at the many Sox problems with a fresh set of eyes and new ideas.

 

Mark

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I'm going to assume leadership is constant for the next few seasons until the White Sox give me a reason to believe it won't be.

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 11:56 AM)
The best move they can make and the FIRST move is for JR to s***can most of the folks on the baseball side and bring in people from winning organizations to look at the many Sox problems with a fresh set of eyes and new ideas.

 

Mark

I loathe comparing teams across sports, but White Sox ownership needs to do essentially what the Bears did. Fire the Vice President down, hire an expert baseball mind to help comb the league for a touted assistant GM in a winning organization.

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Until they change their philsophy on hitting they are doomed.

 

In the day and age of pitch counts and OBP, this organization adheres to neither on the offensive side.

 

Nobody is selective at all they swing at he first strike they see.

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I feel that if the Sox are somehow willing to (finally) take a realistic look at where they are, they could set themselves up to be very good for a long time. They have just enough talent to be a fairly decent team, which means that they have assets that other teams would find desirable. With all of the teams above them that have realistic chances to make the wild card, the trade deadline offers a rare opportunity to take advantage of those teams and get better in the long run. NOW is the time that teams overpay. Let's fuel THEIR delusions for a change and take the realistic path to improvement. The worst thing that could happen now would be another hot streak at the trade deadline fueling the delusion that this is somehow a playoff team (much less a championship contender).

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 11:56 AM)
The best move they can make and the FIRST move is for JR to s***can most of the folks on the baseball side and bring in people from winning organizations to look at the many Sox problems with a fresh set of eyes and new ideas.

 

Mark

30 years ago, Reinsdorf actually did something very similar to what you are prescribing. When Hawk resigned as GM after the '86 season, Reinsdorf reached into the Angels orgnanization to hire Larry Himes to be the next GM, who came in and essentially rid the organization of most of the folks that Hawk had brought in the year prior. Himes then brought in a guy by the name of Al Goldis, who I believe also hailed from the Halos organization, to lead the player development program. Together they did bring a "fresh set of eyes and new ideas" to the organization, particularly related to developing from within. Also, prior to Hawk's one year as GM, the Sox had been generally managed by Roland Hemond for about 15 or 16 years, so Himes coming in from the Angels was absolutely a different approach than what the organization had experienced for quite some time back then.

 

Himes ended up doing a lot of good things in the four years he was with the team, bringing in a boat load of solid, young talent, both through the draft as well as via trade. His apparent problem was he was a big, 'ol meanie to deal and work with, so he ended up getting the boot from Reinsdorf. But to Reinsdorf's credit (how often do we ever get to say that!), at least back then, there was a instance where Reinsdorf looked outside the White Sox family for resources from another organization to come in and run his shop. He's done it before. Now the question is, 30 years later at the ripe,, 'ol age of 80, can he/would he do it again? We shall see.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 02:25 PM)
Now the question is, 30 years later at the ripe,, 'ol age of 80, can he/would he do it again? We shall see.

 

The other question is.. who in their right mind would want to come here and deal with this mess? .. not to mention, deal with an

80 yr old owner who probably is not gonna be entirely open to a whole lot of sweeping changes?

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My thoughts are you build around pitching first.that means Sale, Q, Rodon and Fulmer stay. Jones might stay for the closer role. Anderson at SS and I would want someone like Eaton to stay. Saladino might be able to take over at 3b or 2b. Everyone else tradeable for the right price. Obviously some at a much higher return than others

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 01:37 PM)
The other question is.. who in their right mind would want to come here and deal with this mess? .. not to mention, deal with an

80 yr old owner who probably is not gonna be entirely open to a whole lot of sweeping changes?

 

Legit point plus that person would have to know they'd be working possibly on a short timeline since there is no way to know how long JR will continue to own the franchise. It's not like said person knows he'll be around for 30 years.

 

Like I said, the Sox have no quick and easy solutions. Everything is intertwined and you simply can't solve the issues going from A to B to C in a logical progression.

 

Simply a very bad situation.

 

Mark

 

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 08:27 PM)
Legit point plus that person would have to know they'd be working possibly on a short timeline since there is no way to know how long JR will continue to own the franchise. It's not like said person knows he'll be around for 30 years.

 

Like I said, the Sox have no quick and easy solutions. Everything is intertwined and you simply can't solve the issues going from A to B to C in a logical progression.

 

Simply a very bad situation.

 

Mark

 

a nice post, i would like to think that they, the org is serious about developing a core, a core to build around.

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I have a hard time seeing the Sox sell off major pieces if they're within a couple games of .500. It's just not their way of doing business. Now, if they continue to play as they have since the ASB, then perhaps they'll make a few moves prior to the deadline.

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QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 10:03 AM)
I loathe comparing teams across sports, but White Sox ownership needs to do essentially what the Bears did. Fire the Vice President down, hire an expert baseball mind to help comb the league for a touted assistant GM in a winning organization.

 

Someone like LaRussa ? He made the biggest disaster trade of the last decade. Well that's hybebole because it depends on how all the youth he gave up does in the future. But he sure didn't imagine Shelby Miller going back to the minors this year .

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I've said it before, I'll say it again: nothing improves as long as KW is president. I firmly believe KW gambled--and won--in 2005 (and we thank him for that) but then became convinced he's on a par with Theo Epstein.

 

11 years and one losing playoff appearance later, here we are. More like Juan Epstein.

 

But yes, KW is there because of JR so things may never change as long as JR is owner. Someone here once said that JR's M.O. is that he won't pay big bucks for management or unproven talent. While the latter might make sense, how's the former workin' out for ya, Jer?

 

I mean FFS after Ozzie the big splash was "Hey, Robin: here, put on this hat, you're a manager now!" I'm sure Robin didn't cost much.

 

We need to do what--gasp--the Cubs did and the Blackhawks did. Start from the top down.

 

That said, might as well load up on prospects now with a fire sale--until you think: do we trust these guys to even do that right?

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QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:41 AM)
Someone here once said that JR's M.O. is that he won't pay big bucks for management or unproven talent. While the latter might make sense, how's the former workin' out for ya, Jer?

 

That was me based on JR's comments himself, but by 'management' he meant field managers or head coaches. He's never said anything about front office executives one way or the other.

 

Mark

 

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I think people are too pessimistic here. Since 2005 the World Series has been won four times with teams with dominant starting pitching (Sox and the Giants three times). The Mets gave a black eye to the Cubs because dominant starting pitching can beat dominant hitting. The White Sox had no choice to follow the path they are one because the stumbled upon Quintana, Sale became one of the best pitchers of all time, and they got lucky drafting Rodon. Now they look like they may have gotten lucky getting Fulmer as well. I'm not saying it WILL happen...but lets say in 2017 Rodon improves to Quintana level and Fulmer starts and is Rodon 2015...and James Shields or Gonzalez pitches the way they have in July. You will all agree the defense is WAY better this year than it was last year. You have Austin Jackson and the two catchers done after this year which frees up $11 million in salary (along with adam Laroches $12 million already in your pocket). You resign Frazier (I'm fine with a good fielding 3b who hits 40 home runs but only hits .220) and then sign Lucroy (still need a catcher as Collins is probably a few years away). Why is that not one of the best teams in baseball...or at least a team that can get into the playoffs and then throw four aces into every round of the playoffs? The idea of trading for prospects is exciting as potential is so tantalizing but 2015 #2 BA prospect was Byron Buxton who has a .580 OPS after his first 300 MLB at bats. We need to be patient...building a championship is a long process and I think we have come a long way in three years.

 

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QUOTE (michelangelosmonkey @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 01:25 PM)
I think people are too pessimistic here. Since 2005 the World Series has been won four times with teams with dominant starting pitching (Sox and the Giants three times). The Mets gave a black eye to the Cubs because dominant starting pitching can beat dominant hitting. The White Sox had no choice to follow the path they are one because the stumbled upon Quintana, Sale became one of the best pitchers of all time, and they got lucky drafting Rodon. Now they look like they may have gotten lucky getting Fulmer as well. I'm not saying it WILL happen...but lets say in 2017 Rodon improves to Quintana level and Fulmer starts and is Rodon 2015...and James Shields or Gonzalez pitches the way they have in July. You will all agree the defense is WAY better this year than it was last year. You have Austin Jackson and the two catchers done after this year which frees up $11 million in salary (along with adam Laroches $12 million already in your pocket). You resign Frazier (I'm fine with a good fielding 3b who hits 40 home runs but only hits .220) and then sign Lucroy (still need a catcher as Collins is probably a few years away). Why is that not one of the best teams in baseball...or at least a team that can get into the playoffs and then throw four aces into every round of the playoffs? The idea of trading for prospects is exciting as potential is so tantalizing but 2015 #2 BA prospect was Byron Buxton who has a .580 OPS after his first 300 MLB at bats. We need to be patient...building a championship is a long process and I think we have come a long way in three years.

You make a lot of sense. I have struggled with the idea of a tear down also. I'll post about which organizations would be a good fit to trade Sale or Q but then turn around and say if Hahn had signed Ian Desmond and Dexter Fowler , guys that were easily obtainable late in the off season how good is this team then ? Or perhaps Daniel Murphy who as a 30 year old signed just a 3 year deal with the Nats( not some mega 6 year deal) and is having a career year. He's that LH middle of the order power bat we needed, Fowler the OBP and speed in CF we needed. Desmond also a cheap signing for depth who ends up getting his career back on track could have played SS which the Sox also needed or DH'd or converted to OF like the Nats did with him.

 

Things could have gone much better this year. You add those guys and Rollins isn't signed, Avi spends the year in the minors, Sands isn't on the roster. Do I expect Hahn and the boys to make perfect moves ? No but I expect them to be better than they have been. They have to remember too much talent isn't a bad thing.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 03:56 PM)
You make a lot of sense. I have struggled with the idea of a tear down also. I'll post about which organizations would be a good fit to trade Sale or Q but then turn around and say if Hahn had signed Ian Desmond and Dexter Fowler , guys that were easily obtainable late in the off season how good is this team then ? Or perhaps Daniel Murphy who as a 30 year old signed just a 3 year deal with the Nats( not some mega 6 year deal) and is having a career year. He's that LH middle of the order power bat we needed, Fowler the OBP and speed in CF we needed. Desmond also a cheap signing for depth who ends up getting his career back on track could have played SS which the Sox also needed or DH'd or converted to OF like the Nats did with him.

 

Things could have gone much better this year. You add those guys and Rollins isn't signed, Avi spends the year in the minors, Sands isn't on the roster. Do I expect Hahn and the boys to make perfect moves ? No but I expect them to be better than they have been. They have to remember too much talent isn't a bad thing.

 

That's the spirit. We've also added Anderson who looks like our shortstop for the next ten years. And if you like prospects...how about Adam Engel who was the AFL player of the year, and then after a slow start in Birmingham has been amazing. He's a good fielder and an on base machine with plus speed for Center field...they just have to wait for 2017. Even Collins might be ready by then...if not at catcher he would be automatically better than Avi at DH. This is not a broken machine...this is a half fixed machine...and we fixed the hardest part...great starting pitching. Baseball is a game that requires massive patience and yet because of its daily games its hard not to give up hope after a bad loss.

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QUOTE (michelangelosmonkey @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 03:25 PM)
I think people are too pessimistic here. Since 2005 the World Series has been won four times with teams with dominant starting pitching (Sox and the Giants three times). The Mets gave a black eye to the Cubs because dominant starting pitching can beat dominant hitting. The White Sox had no choice to follow the path they are one because the stumbled upon Quintana, Sale became one of the best pitchers of all time, and they got lucky drafting Rodon. Now they look like they may have gotten lucky getting Fulmer as well. I'm not saying it WILL happen...but lets say in 2017 Rodon improves to Quintana level and Fulmer starts and is Rodon 2015...and James Shields or Gonzalez pitches the way they have in July. You will all agree the defense is WAY better this year than it was last year. You have Austin Jackson and the two catchers done after this year which frees up $11 million in salary (along with adam Laroches $12 million already in your pocket). You resign Frazier (I'm fine with a good fielding 3b who hits 40 home runs but only hits .220) and then sign Lucroy (still need a catcher as Collins is probably a few years away). Why is that not one of the best teams in baseball...or at least a team that can get into the playoffs and then throw four aces into every round of the playoffs? The idea of trading for prospects is exciting as potential is so tantalizing but 2015 #2 BA prospect was Byron Buxton who has a .580 OPS after his first 300 MLB at bats. We need to be patient...building a championship is a long process and I think we have come a long way in three years.

 

Because you can't keep trotting out one of worst offenses in baseball and expect to win games even if you have 5 Chris Sales.

 

2017 Offense:

1B - Abreu looks to be completely average at this point and we have no idea if he will even come close to where he was ever again.

2B - Average at best

SS - Unknown at this point & Sox have non-existant track record of developing any offensive player

3B - Hits homers and nothing else

C - Overpay for Lucroy I guess?

LF - Last year of Melky, average to maybe solid.

CF - Likely a rookie or another dumpster dive

RF - Solid to star level

DH - Dumpster dive or a rookie

 

Our pitching will be great again, but that lineup screams

 

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This team doesn't need to rebuild. They need to fire the leadership that can't identify or groom talent. The young guys we bring in and draft typically suck too. So I'm not sure a rebuild will work. And we have enough talent where we can plug some holes and see where it takes us.

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QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 21, 2016 -> 12:02 PM)
My future plans: Watch other sports until JR isn't the owner anymore.

 

Best idea. I try to watch other baseball teams where there is little emotional interest and that means NL baseball. For the Cub haters, unfortunately the Cubs are a good team to watch. I wish the Dbacks didn't suck. I have a neighbor who has season tickets and sometimes gives them away.

 

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QUOTE (SonofaRoache @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 04:45 PM)
This team doesn't need to rebuild. They need to fire the leadership that can't identify or groom talent. The young guys we bring in and draft typically suck too. So I'm not sure a rebuild will work. And we have enough talent where we can plug some holes and see where it takes us.

 

They seem to be content since the start of this century.

 

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