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Jose Abreu

Trade Deadline: Sox Make No Moves

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This is very simple. All you have to do is look around the league and see how many contenders have top farm systems. Just off the top of my head, you've got the Red Sox, Indians, Rangers, Astros, Dodgers, Cubs, & Washington. All quality teams with the means to have sustainable success. On the other hand, you have the White Sox, a team currently a below .500, with a bottom five farm system and several key players hitting free agency after next season.

 

How in the world do we expect to compete against those teams given our current situation? Sure, we can technically "go for it" next year and hope that we can fill all our holes, that everyone stays healthy, that guys coming off poor seasons rebound, and that nobody regresses. Is that likely? Hell no it's not, but what if it works? Best case scenario, we get one whole year of contention before we either have to commit to our free agents (a risky proposition) or be back to square one with multiple holes to fill and minimal minor league reinforcements to fill them.

 

The point I'm trying to make is we will never have sustainable success if we keep doing this re-tooling nonsense. The only hope is to rebuild the system from the ground up, develop a nice major league core, and build a consistent pipeline of talent. That requires blowing this team the f*** up and going through a painful rebuilding process. The good news for us is that we have several valuable assets that can greatly accelerate that process if moved. The time is now to start on this path. Waiting another year is far too risky. If Sale or Quintana were to get injured, then our organization is completely f***ed. It's 100% not worth taking that risk on what is essentially a hail marry attempt at competing. So let's stop f***ing around and do the right thing for once and build a team the right way.

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QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:39 PM)
Since 2006, there's literally 5 teams including the Sox who don't have at least 2 playoff appearances. Two of those are the Blue Jays and Astros who can get out of that category this season. But yes, we're just entitled morons who can't see this awesome product that the organization has given us for the last decade!

So if the Sox would have made it to a play in game as the 5th playoff team last year and lost 12-0, not making a trade yesterday for whatever they could get would not have been the blunder it now is.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:51 PM)
So if the Sox would have made it to a play in game as the 5th playoff team last year and lost 12-0, not making a trade yesterday for whatever they could get would not have been the blunder it now is.

*Sigh* Yup, you nailed it. You win.

Edited by Rowand44

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:44 PM)
No, it's that prospects bust. Very rarely does it work out trading a star for a bunch of prospects. It does occasionally, and these 2 are different. They have years of control. It's not like they are going to be a free agent in a couple of months or another year. People were excited about Avi when he was acquired. Many were excited about Davidson. A lot of people thought Hawkins would be a stud. People are already down on Fulmer. It's not just the White Sox who have prospects that bust. Every team does. Look at the top 10s from 5 or 6 years ago and they don't look as good now for the most part.

 

That's why they cannot settle. You miss on the prospect package for Sale and Q, you just set your team back a lot more years. Being very careful with this should be applauded not ripped apart. Maybe they are going to rebuild. Is there really a big difference if they waited until the offseason as opposed to now? You make it seem like it's now past the point of no return, if they were going to rebuild, these guys had to be gone.

 

Besides, how can the Sox have so many players that have value of top prospects, yet be a team that is destined to be awful?

 

 

The White Sox have consistently been in the bottom third of farm system rankings for over a decade. You can list off a few that failed, a few that succeeded. The point is to get a lot. A lot of really good ones. Can you tell me that some will fail? Absolutely. But the reason Avi hurts so bad is because we haven't had a single outfielder come up that could push him out. Well we had one, we used him to trade for a third baseman because our lone 3rd base prospect in a decade failed.

 

We, on the other hand, finally seem to have a wave of talent from a decent draft located in very early levels. If we commit to getting as many quality pieces as possible, vs doing whatever we are doing, we could find ourselves with an even larger core than we have now, and pieces to acquire the final pitchers or hitters needed to make a serious run.

 

Not all of them will make it. But Adam Eaton made it. Sale made it.

 

Prospects fail, well, a whole lot of teams have taken that into account and put a hell of a lot more emphasis on making sure they have as many as possible.

 

We? We try to operate on the bare minimum. That gets you the slow decline in White Sox baseball, 2006-2016. It also should be noted that during that time, the team was mostly competitive due to a core acquired during a time of rebuilding, with a top farm system and trades of veterans.

 

A lot of those prospects failed. But the core of Konerko, Buerhle, Rowand, Garland, and Crede, and many more pieces in Josh Fogg, Kip Wells, Rocky Biddle, Keith Foulke, Bob Howry, Mike Sirotka, Brian Simmons, Joe Borchard, etc allowed us flexibility to trade for alternate pieces.

 

A lot of those guys in the paragraph above failed. I expect a lot to fail out of the promising group in the current draft and whomever we acquired. But we may also got a really dynamic core and depth in the system to trade for more proven talent to have a window of actual playoff teams.

 

The White Sox showed us the best way to make this work. Get a core of actual successful teams and then sacrifice prospects to get them places to win. But then when it was clear that had expired...you don't just keep doing the same thing with a halved and quartered core.

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What I don't understand is looking at every season since 2008 we've tried a variety of ideas on how to construct a winning ballclub -- FA, trades, developing our own talent, signing international players, rebuilding on the fly, yet the one idea we've yet to try, the one we've yet to attempt, is so disregarded by management. We may fail, yes. But how do we know if we don't try!? Selling players with value isn't losing, it's another attempt at trying to win when everything else at your disposal has failed.

 

To those people holding off onto the idea the wintertime will bring the White Sox the players they seek in a trade, I really hope you're right. I'll gladly commend Hahn if he does his job and unloads Sale or Q, etc. for quality players. Although if Hahn wets himself again, there shouldn't be ONE member here defending him. No more "spring training just started lets wait," no "let's wait until midseason" talk, no blaming market inequalities or outside forces that conspired against the White Sox. No more excuses

Edited by Flash Tizzle

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QUOTE (Tony @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:51 PM)
So the alternative is to play it safe, continue with the plan, and continue to be stuck in mediocrity, like Rick Hahn admitted they were?

They talked to every team about their players. The only deal they thought would make them better in the future was the Duke trade. Are they supposed to just trade guys because message board posters say so? 2015 was a disaster. They changed the roster significantly, which was changed significantly from the 2014 roster. Avi Garcia is the longest tenured postion player. The only others with a longer tenure are Sale and Quintana. Whichever direction they ultimately choose, and I think it is totally dependent on someone meeting their price on Q and Sale, the 2017 White Sox will have a significantly different looking roster from what it is now.

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QUOTE (Tony @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:19 PM)
And the last 10 years of White Sox baseball has gotten fans....what exactly?

 

HA! Not much! A couple Buehrle no-no's?? Does that count?!

 

I don't mean to state the obvious, but we need to remember something obvious...WINNING IS HARD!! If it were easy, everyone would do it! It's not...but let's look at the last 10 years though...in fact, let's cover the last 20. In the last 20 years, 10 MLB franchises have won championships. The White Sox are on that list! Granted...your post was geared towards the last 10 and in that span, there's not much to report. But it just goes to show that with 30 teams chasing the same goal every year, it makes winning very difficult...all the factors that go into a championship. If winning the World Series is your only means of measure, then chances are you will end each baseball season with disappointment and go decades without the feel of gain. At least for us, we have had a chance to raise the banner in the modern era--it happened in our lifetime--unlike MANY other franchises! It might take forever for it to happen again, but we can at least look back on what that year brought us, and smile.

 

As for now...the land is dry and everyone seems to be holding a lit match. But it's been dry before. Better times will come (shoot...they came in April without a problem)! As fans of ANY team, since we can't GM a team or play on the field, all we can do is watch and enjoy the fact that we live in a free country (still) that we can watch baseball games for fun. Take that away from your consumption of the White Sox experience and you will live more satisfied.

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QUOTE (FT35 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:58 PM)
HA! Not much! A couple Buehrle no-no's?? Does that count?!

 

I don't mean to state the obvious, but we need to remember something obvious...WINNING IS HARD!! If it were easy, everyone would do it! It's not...but let's look at the last 10 years though...in fact, let's cover the last 20. In the last 20 years, 10 MLB franchises have won championships. The White Sox are on that list! Granted...your post was geared towards the last 10 and in that span, there's not much to report. But it just goes to show that with 30 teams chasing the same goal every year, it makes winning very difficult...all the factors that go into a championship. If winning the World Series is your only means of measure, then chances are you will end each baseball season with disappointment and go decades without the feel of gain. At least for us, we have had a chance to raise the banner in the modern era--it happened in our lifetime--unlike MANY other franchises! It might take forever for it to happen again, but we can at least look back on what that year brought us, and smile.

 

First of all, while winning a WS championship is always the ultimate goal every season, most of us would be happy with the chance to even make it to the WS by at least making it to the post-season. That's something the Sox have done far too little of even in the last 20 years.

 

Secondly, it's kinda sad that you choose to go back 20 years to include the Sox on a successful list. Baseball was a much different game 20 years ago. Hell, it was a different game 10 years ago. More teams than ever make the post-season now and they still manage to be on the outside looking in.

 

I just checked and among the teams that have been around for at least 100 years, the Sox have the lowest number of post-season appearances with 9.

Edited by Iwritecode

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:58 PM)
They talked to every team about their players. The only deal they thought would make them better in the future was the Duke trade. Are they supposed to just trade guys because message board posters say so? 2015 was a disaster. They changed the roster significantly, which was changed significantly from the 2014 roster. Avi Garcia is the longest tenured postion player. The only others with a longer tenure are Sale and Quintana. Whichever direction they ultimately choose, and I think it is totally dependent on someone meeting their price on Q and Sale, the 2017 White Sox will have a significantly different looking roster from what it is now.

 

If that's the case then they suck at negotiating. As I stated earlier, many teams around baseball made good deals selling at the deadline.

 

They are also bad at making hard decisions. Not selling last deadline put them at a disadvantage this offseason, just like not selling at this years deadline will hurt in the future years building this team.

 

 

 

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QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 03:34 PM)
First of all, while winning a WS championship is always the ultimate goal every season, most of us would be happy with the chance to even make it to the WS by at least making it to the post-season. That's something the Sox have done far too little of even in the last 20 years.

 

Secondly, it's kinda sad that you choose to go back 20 years to include the Sox on a successful list. Baseball was a much different game 20 years ago. Hell, it was a different game 10 years ago. More teams than ever make the post-season now and they still manage to be on the outside looking in.

 

I just checked and among the teams that have been around for at least 100 years, the Sox have the lowest number of post-season appearances with 9.

 

 

I can't argue. What you say is true. It IS sad that I have to go back 20 years to get the good times in. All I'm saying is that most other teams are in the same boat. Unless you're the Red Sox, Yankees, Giants, or Cardinals, chances are, you've experienced a drought like ours at some point in the last 20 years. All things are NOT created equal in sports. Look no further than the NBA for unequal distribution of wealth. You think only 10 franchises with championships in the last 20 seasons in MLB is bad...you can go back to 1980--36 years and there have only been 10 NBA franchises who have won championships in that span. All teams are not created equal, and few can say they have ever tasted true success.

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QUOTE (shakes @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 10:49 AM)
But part of being a good GM is creating a market and getting the offers you like. It's another argument I just don't find defensible anymore, not saying by you, just in general.

 

Look at the Yankees. Cashman had the two best bullpen arms and got teams to pay huge prices for them, hence dictating the market. He got a good price for a 39 year old outfielder. The Sox on the other hand were shopping the two best starters, one of the better lefty relievers with a good contract, a closer, could also have shopped Nate Jones, a productive outfielder on a good contract, two secondary starters which were going for valuable assets, and wound up with the Cardinals #12 prospect who is viewed by most as a 4th outfielder.

 

That's on the GM for not getting to the offers they thought were good offers. The Yankees, Brewers, A's, Rays and Pirates all found deals for their assets. Why is it that whenever the Sox have something to sell there just doesn't seem to be a market for their players, even thought the market exists for other teams with similar assets? The conclusion I'm being forced to accept is an inadequate front office.

 

Let's face it they blew this deadline spectacularly. Just like the blew the deadline last year by delusionally believing they were contenders , and I have no faith in them cleaning it up this winter.

 

This is a great post man. I said something along these lines on twitter yesterday evening as well. What trust has this front office earned from the fanbase? We don't know what they were offered, but are we to really expect that they got lowballed by everyone for everyone? I find that really hard to believe after witnessing the deals that were struck over the last week or two. If that is true, there is only 3 reasons for it:

 

1.) Other GMs don't think highly enough of the Sox FO enough to make serious offers

2.) KW and Hahn have unrealistic expectations for returns

3.) The players they have as a core aren't attractive to anyone, thus bringing into question why the Sox FO thought they compete with them

 

I have no confidence in the competency of this front office anymore. They have done absolutely nothing to earn my trust.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:16 PM)
I also wouldn't be surprised if a player or 2 is dealt this month. Maybe that will ease some pain. The Sox could get another Leury Garcia or 2 and the rebuild will be well underway.

 

This. The Sox weren't about to rebuild by trading Melky or Robertson at their price. They would have gotten something that is perhaps close to ML ready, but not super exciting. Nothing that is going to turn this franchise around. Had they moved Sale and/or Q, I would have been fine getting what they could for Melky, Frazier and Robertson, but for now, it makes more sense to try to compete with those guys, because the returns were not going to move the needle at all.

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I think that is what is so demoralizing. The Sox were damned if they did and damned if they didnt when it came to the trade deadline. I hate to sound repetitive but the problem is organization wide. Its not fixable with having just a good return on a couple stud pitchers. That would have helped but if they still continue to blow draft picks....if they continue to strike out on the key FA signings and hit on the poor FA decisions...if they continue to allow their clubhouse to be mismanaged...if they continue to not be on the same page in the FO...if they continue to not develop the talent from the lower levels up...and it keeps going and going it will be extremely difficult for them to have real sustainable success.

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QUOTE (FT35 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 03:54 PM)
I can't argue. What you say is true. It IS sad that I have to go back 20 years to get the good times in. All I'm saying is that most other teams are in the same boat. Unless you're the Red Sox, Yankees, Giants, or Cardinals, chances are, you've experienced a drought like ours at some point in the last 20 years. All things are NOT created equal in sports. Look no further than the NBA for unequal distribution of wealth. You think only 10 franchises with championships in the last 20 seasons in MLB is bad...you can go back to 1980--36 years and there have only been 10 NBA franchises who have won championships in that span. All teams are not created equal, and few can say they have ever tasted true success.

 

You're still counting championships though. I think that's setting the threshold for a successful season a little too high. Just look at post-season appearances.

 

The Sox have been around for over 100 years and only have 9. Every other team that has been around that long has at least 10. Half of them have at least 17. Even the Astros and the Angels who have only been around for half that time have 10.

 

The Sox are definitely the outlier here.

 

 

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 02:44 PM)
No, it's that prospects bust. Very rarely does it work out trading a star for a bunch of prospects. It does occasionally, and these 2 are different. They have years of control. It's not like they are going to be a free agent in a couple of months or another year. People were excited about Avi when he was acquired. Many were excited about Davidson. A lot of people thought Hawkins would be a stud. People are already down on Fulmer. It's not just the White Sox who have prospects that bust. Every team does. Look at the top 10s from 5 or 6 years ago and they don't look as good now for the most part.

 

That's why they cannot settle. You miss on the prospect package for Sale and Q, you just set your team back a lot more years. Being very careful with this should be applauded not ripped apart. Maybe they are going to rebuild. Is there really a big difference if they waited until the offseason as opposed to now? You make it seem like it's now past the point of no return, if they were going to rebuild, these guys had to be gone.

 

Besides, how can the Sox have so many players that have value of top prospects, yet be a team that is destined to be awful?

 

 

And if trading away all your pieces is a sign of good management, how is it, if you don't think these guys know talent, you want them trading all of your worthwhile pieces? You want to talk setting a franchise back a decade or so, it would be getting what turns out to crap back for these guys.

 

The problem for the Pirates was they had ownership that didn't want to spend money to compete. They went cheap in the draft and in FA and the results were not good. They got new ownership, started spending money in the draft, have grown their fanbase and now have a team in contention with one of the higher end farm systems in baseball.

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QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 04:39 PM)
I'm just hoping JR had a revelation in the night and is going to fire KW & crew and let the new person handle the rebuild.

 

That's the only hope, but I think the only change that will happen is if Hahn or Kenny actually step down. There are just too many inflated egos there and they are not working well together. But it is truly systemic. Small changes are happening in draft strategy and the international prospect pool, but nothing is really changing much on the player development side, and the pro level scouting still seems horrific.

 

I'm still torn on whether Hahn is really at the wheel, because I think some of these changes he's behind but they are just trickling in and the impact is too slow while trying to constantly field a competitive team. It's just a totally disjointed approach that has the feel of too many cooks in the kitchen.

 

It would be ideal to get a new FO in and then make the strategic decisions, but to me that seems about as likely as believing in the Sox bandaid approach working next year. JR's long history really shows the management level shakeup needs to be forced upon him.

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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 01:27 PM)
Cool, I like forward to many more seasons of ~78 wins.

 

re: the bolded, identical post could have been made last year. Year before. Year before that. etc.

 

As long as JR is in the camp of no rebuilding (and as of right now he is) there will not be one. It's that simple.

 

Mark

 

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And seeing the price on Jay Bruce (to to the Mets), why didn't the White Sox at least try to make that move in mid-May before the bottom completely fell out and it was too late...? Why the move for Shields and then just nothing to follow it up?

 

Did they honestly still believe in Avi Garcia at that time?

 

Why/how?

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JR and Co. care about winning, in the ledger.

 

As long as there's a percentage of the fanbase who believes that:

 

A. Over-the-hill hasbeens will perform like the back of their cards.

B. Long term deals will forever doom the franchise, and that financial flexibility is in their (the fans) best interest.

C. They've done things in the same manner for years, but this time will be different.

 

The White Sox will continue to be a mediocre at best on-field product.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 01:25 PM)
The same as most teams. I know White Sox fans are owed more than any other fanbase, but what you are arguing is 'why would they try to win?" You haven't made the playoffs in 8 years. Quit trying to win" Lose, lose, lose. Get a bunch of prospects. It's fool proof, and don't hold out for the best price. Just take what you can get.

With a miserly five playoff appearances - just five, Dick! Count 'em! - in the past now going on 56 years, I'd say our beleaguered fan base is certainly owed something at this point.

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QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 04:35 PM)
JR and Co. care about winning, in the ledger.

 

As long as there's a percentage of the fanbase who believes that:

 

A. Over-the-hill hasbeens will perform like the back of their cards.

B. Long term deals will forever doom the franchise, and that financial flexibility is in their (the fans) best interest.

C. They've done things in the same manner for years, but this time will be different.

 

The White Sox will continue to be a mediocre at best on-field product.

 

They will be looking for a new TV contract. IF you got rid of Sale, good luck with that one.

 

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QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Aug 3, 2016 -> 09:47 PM)
They will be looking for a new TV contract. IF you got rid of Sale, good luck with that one.

 

Sorry, but no one is tuning in to see Sale pitch on a last place team now. Sale being with the Sox does nothing to improve the contract value of the team with the lowest ratings of any team in the league.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 08:21 PM)
With a miserly five playoff appearances - just five, Dick! Count 'em! - in the past now going on 56 years, I'd say our beleaguered fan base is certainly owed something at this point.

How many playoff appearances did they have when you became "a fan"?

 

Why wasn't that important to you and everyone else then?

 

Then they had a period where they won more games than most but not a lot of playoff appearance. They have a couple, win a WS, then the bar is moved to CONSECUTIVE PLAYOFF APPEARANCES. Once that is accomplished, the bar, like it was when the seats were the wrong color, the ticket prices too high, the video board isn't big enough, will be moved again.

 

The White Sox have a fanbase who say winning is most important. The reality is many are like you. What is most important is having something to complain about all the time.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Aug 4, 2016 -> 11:17 AM)
Sorry, but no one is tuning in to see Sale pitch on a last place team now. Sale being with the Sox does nothing to improve the contract value of the team with the lowest ratings of any team in the league.

Where do you see us having the lowest rating?

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