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Trade Deadline: Sox Make No Moves

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 08:19 AM)
I'm bored too -- I get it, I really do.

 

But if you take a step back and look at the situation and the options, the roster is built to push through 2017. I have no doubt that Hahn considered changing that course after his "mired in mediocrity" statement, but I have to assume that teams were not willing to pay up. Rather than make a bad deal simply for the sake of changing something, there's an argument to be made to let things play out. I'm sure he could have moved some relievers and role players, but if the returns aren't meaningful, there's value in retaining the flexibility of competing in 2017 into this offseason, where I have no doubt that he'll try to see what he can get out of Sale/Quintana again.

 

For those asking "what can possibly be done to improve the team's chances in 2017," it starts with Abreu being Abreu, Frazier being Frazier, and Rodon finally turning into Rodon. Those guys have been bad, but there doesn't appear to be any physical reason, and the reality is just that sometimes guys have bad years. Remember when David Ortiz was cooked? Remember when Carlos Beltran was useless? Remember when it was ridiculous to acquire John Lackey? There are a ton of examples of teams giving up on good players only to see them flourish later, often elsewhere. We're all real good at coming up with convenient ad hoc explanations like "toxic clubhouse" or "new training program" or "obvious contract year effort" and other unsubstantiated, random crap, but when we do that, we're ignoring the fact that baseball is a competition where two really good players are doing everything they can to stop the other from succeeding, and no matter how much talent there is, one of them ALWAYS has to lose. Team sports aren't just coming in and pushing buttons -- sometimes you simply get beat.

 

If any those players simply did what was reasonably expected, we'd probably be a couple games over .500. If ALL of them simply did what they were reasonably expected, we'd be in the thick of the playoff hunt. Is the consistent disappointment of the team a systemic problem of the organization? Maybe. But if you're Rick Hahn, you're not going to fire yourself. You're going to do what ALL of us do every day: you're going to assume you're capable of doing your job, and make the best decision you can given the hand in front of you.

 

It's totally fair to be disappointed and upset -- I am too. But the decision to hold onto controllable assets into this offseason is absolutely a defensible decision, even if it's boring and feels bad. It very well may turn out to be the wrong one (assuming the offers on the table were what we think), and you certainly DON'T have to like it or agree with it, but it's a far cry from obvious incompetence.

 

In case anyone doesn't know about it, this is an awesome resource for when you want to start taking stock of the offseason: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GZ9...pub?output=html

 

Note the contracts that come off the books after next season: Melky, Frazier, Lawrie, Gonzalez. If we fail next year, all those guys will be hot deadline chips. Shields and Robertson will each have ~1.5yr/~$15m remaining, and will also be good chips if they're pitching well. Jones and Jennings will still have multiple years of control remaining. Sale and Quintana will be essentially JUST as valuable, but the team will be in a clearer position to sell.

 

And that's IF we fail. Those aforementioned bouncebacks could get us most of the way to contention, and I'm assuming Avisail Garcia will FINALLY be non-tendered, so we may just have a shot. The offseason shopping list is clear and achievable: catcher, first base/DH, corner OF.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is living in absolute fantasyland. This is the same rationalizing we see every year that has lead to the White Sox being 62 games under .500 the last three seasons, with another season headed down that same path. And frankly, the positive regressions you highlight do not nearly make up the difference for the Sox making the playoffs. And that is ignoring the fact that this is likely the player Frazier is, he isn't doing anything that is really outside his career norms, and Sale, Q, Eaton, Melky, Jones are all healthy and have years towards the high end of their career production, and it is very unlikely we see the recent contributions Gonzalez and Sheilds are giving the Sox.

 

As far as Rodon goes, well the book is absolutely out on him, but the rushed promotions do not seem to be helping him and so far Fulmer is looking like he needs more development to even contribute as a reliable bullpen arm. Which brings up another argument against contention, the Sox just traded their second most reliable bullpen arm for what is widely considered a 4th outfielder who will be thrust immediately into a starting role.

 

All of this is complicated by the fact that every team has injuries and regressions and the Sox have a farm system that produces no depth and ready made replacements which is a big reason the team fades down the stretch every year, and is falling into that patter yet again.

 

Believing the Sox will enter the big boy market and sell assets, who are worth less this time next year, and spend wildly back into contention because the money will be off the books is just ignoring everything about their history and how they operate.

 

Their is no defensible position for contention next year. The Sox are closer to the Reds than they are the Red Sox as an organization. Their really is nothing they do well at this point top to bottom. I can't think of a single thing. They have developed two star pitchers in the last six years and appear content to just throw away their primes. This is a real nadir as a Sox fan.

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QUOTE (shakes @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:09 AM)
I'm sorry, but this is living in absolute fantasyland. This is the same rationalizing we see every year that has lead to the White Sox being 62 games under .500 the last three seasons, with another season headed down that same path. And frankly, the positive regressions you highlight do not nearly make up the difference for the Sox making the playoffs. And that is ignoring the fact that this is likely the player Frazier is, he isn't doing anything that is really outside his career norms, and Sale, Q, Eaton, Melky, Jones are all healthy and have years towards the high end of their career production, and it is very unlikely we see the recent contributions Gonzalez and Sheilds are giving the Sox.

 

As far as Rodon goes, well the book is absolutely out on him, but the rushed promotions do not seem to be helping him and so far Fulmer is looking like he needs more development to even contribute as a reliable bullpen arm. Which brings up another argument against contention, the Sox just traded their second most reliable bullpen arm for what is widely considered a 4th outfielder who will be thrust immediately into a starting role.

 

All of this is complicated by the fact that every team has injuries and regressions and the Sox have a farm system that produces no depth and ready made replacements which is a big reason the team fades down the stretch every year, and is falling into that patter yet again.

 

Believing the Sox will enter the big boy market and sell assets, who are worth less this time next year, and spend wildly back into contention because the money will be off the books is just ignoring everything about their history and how they operate.

 

Their is no defensible position for contention next year. The Sox are closer to the Reds than they are the Red Sox as an organization. Their really is nothing they do well at this point top to bottom. I can't think of a single thing. They have developed two star pitchers in the last six years and appear content to just throw away their primes. This is a real nadir as a Sox fan.

 

You said "nuh-uh" to a lot of what I posted, but you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary. For example, I'm not sure how you look at Frazier's stat line and come to the conclusion that he isn't far off from his norms. It just isn't true -- K rate is up, BABIP is way down, defense is way down, etc. The differences, purely in terms of WAR, between recent Abreu and Frazier seasons and what they're likely to finish with this year amount to something like 6 wins. If you projected Rodon to come it at three wins this year (safe), you're talking about a 9 win swing. That would absolutely put the Sox in contention.

 

You're welcome to hold your opinion, but you haven't shown anything to support it. I understand the sense of dread (I feel it too), and you may be right that the organization is incompetent in terms of player development, but neither of those two things support the idea that their deadline strategy is indefensible.

 

I'm not trying to defend the org, I'm just trying to explain the actions.

 

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 08:19 AM)
I'm bored too -- I get it, I really do.

 

But if you take a step back and look at the situation and the options, the roster is built to push through 2017. I have no doubt that Hahn considered changing that course after his "mired in mediocrity" statement, but I have to assume that teams were not willing to pay up. Rather than make a bad deal simply for the sake of changing something, there's an argument to be made to let things play out. I'm sure he could have moved some relievers and role players, but if the returns aren't meaningful, there's value in retaining the flexibility of competing in 2017 into this offseason, where I have no doubt that he'll try to see what he can get out of Sale/Quintana again.

 

For those asking "what can possibly be done to improve the team's chances in 2017," it starts with Abreu being Abreu, Frazier being Frazier, and Rodon finally turning into Rodon. Those guys have been bad, but there doesn't appear to be any physical reason, and the reality is just that sometimes guys have bad years. Remember when David Ortiz was cooked? Remember when Carlos Beltran was useless? Remember when it was ridiculous to acquire John Lackey? There are a ton of examples of teams giving up on good players only to see them flourish later, often elsewhere. We're all real good at coming up with convenient ad hoc explanations like "toxic clubhouse" or "new training program" or "obvious contract year effort" and other unsubstantiated, random crap, but when we do that, we're ignoring the fact that baseball is a competition where two really good players are doing everything they can to stop the other from succeeding, and no matter how much talent there is, one of them ALWAYS has to lose. Team sports aren't just coming in and pushing buttons -- sometimes you simply get beat.

 

If any those players simply did what was reasonably expected, we'd probably be a couple games over .500. If ALL of them simply did what they were reasonably expected, we'd be in the thick of the playoff hunt. Is the consistent disappointment of the team a systemic problem of the organization? Maybe. But if you're Rick Hahn, you're not going to fire yourself. You're going to do what ALL of us do every day: you're going to assume you're capable of doing your job, and make the best decision you can given the hand in front of you.

 

It's totally fair to be disappointed and upset -- I am too. But the decision to hold onto controllable assets into this offseason is absolutely a defensible decision, even if it's boring and feels bad. It very well may turn out to be the wrong one (assuming the offers on the table were what we think), and you certainly DON'T have to like it or agree with it, but it's a far cry from obvious incompetence.

 

In case anyone doesn't know about it, this is an awesome resource for when you want to start taking stock of the offseason: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GZ9...pub?output=html

 

Note the contracts that come off the books after next season: Melky, Frazier, Lawrie, Gonzalez. If we fail next year, all those guys will be hot deadline chips. Shields and Robertson will each have ~1.5yr/~$15m remaining, and will also be good chips if they're pitching well. Jones and Jennings will still have multiple years of control remaining. Sale and Quintana will be essentially JUST as valuable, but the team will be in a clearer position to sell.

 

And that's IF we fail. Those aforementioned bouncebacks could get us most of the way to contention, and I'm assuming Avisail Garcia will FINALLY be non-tendered, so we may just have a shot. The offseason shopping list is clear and achievable: catcher, first base/DH, corner OF.

 

 

This is an awesome post and sum up my feelings nicely. We are usually pretty lockstep though so I'm not surprised. The White Sox will be heading to the Winter Meetings with the 2 best pitchers available (Sale, Q) and will have Frazier, Lawrie, Melky, and Gonzalez as free agents. The White Sox will be a trading post. But what if they take one more run at it? What if they try to sign Adam Lind to a 1-2 year deal to DH. What if they find a way to acquire Puig somehow? That doesn't stop you from selling of Frazier, Melky etc at the deadline if it fails again. IT also doesn't stop you from getting a similar package to what is being offered right now for Sale and Q. As much as people would hate this strategy, if you are Rick Hahn, I understand taking one more shot. It requires cash though and it also requires not giving up any more draft picks. This offseason will be extremely interesting one way or another.

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QUOTE (shakes @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:09 AM)
I'm sorry, but this is living in absolute fantasyland. This is the same rationalizing we see every year that has lead to the White Sox being 62 games under .500 the last three seasons, with another season headed down that same path. And frankly, the positive regressions you highlight do not nearly make up the difference for the Sox making the playoffs. And that is ignoring the fact that this is likely the player Frazier is, he isn't doing anything that is really outside his career norms, and Sale, Q, Eaton, Melky, Jones are all healthy and have years towards the high end of their career production, and it is very unlikely we see the recent contributions Gonzalez and Sheilds are giving the Sox.

 

As far as Rodon goes, well the book is absolutely out on him, but the rushed promotions do not seem to be helping him and so far Fulmer is looking like he needs more development to even contribute as a reliable bullpen arm. Which brings up another argument against contention, the Sox just traded their second most reliable bullpen arm for what is widely considered a 4th outfielder who will be thrust immediately into a starting role.

 

All of this is complicated by the fact that every team has injuries and regressions and the Sox have a farm system that produces no depth and ready made replacements which is a big reason the team fades down the stretch every year, and is falling into that patter yet again.

 

Believing the Sox will enter the big boy market and sell assets, who are worth less this time next year, and spend wildly back into contention because the money will be off the books is just ignoring everything about their history and how they operate.

 

Their is no defensible position for contention next year. The Sox are closer to the Reds than they are the Red Sox as an organization. Their really is nothing they do well at this point top to bottom. I can't think of a single thing. They have developed two star pitchers in the last six years and appear content to just throw away their primes. This is a real nadir as a Sox fan.

 

 

I don't think their assets are worth less this time next year. They can get a similar package to what was offered for Sale and Q at that time. Frazier and Melky will be free agents. Teams have been overpaying for going to be free agents and Sox would also have comp pick option if CBA stays similar.

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 10:06 PM)
From Whitesoxdave

 

FWIW I was told the #WhiteSox turned down a Benintendi, Kopech, Johnson/Ball, and PTBNL package for Quintana from #RedSox

 

Meh. Only two players that that excite me. Kopech as the 2nd piece is unacceptable, IMO. Glad they didn't take that deal.

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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:33 AM)
The White Sox will also head out of the winter meetings with the 2 best pitchers available

 

:lol:

 

 

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QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:30 AM)
This is an awesome post and sum up my feelings nicely. We are usually pretty lockstep though so I'm not surprised. The White Sox will be heading to the Winter Meetings with the 2 best pitchers available (Sale, Q) and will have Frazier, Lawrie, Melky, and Gonzalez as free agents. The White Sox will be a trading post. But what if they take one more run at it? What if they try to sign Adam Lind to a 1-2 year deal to DH. What if they find a way to acquire Puig somehow? That doesn't stop you from selling of Frazier, Melky etc at the deadline if it fails again. IT also doesn't stop you from getting a similar package to what is being offered right now for Sale and Q. As much as people would hate this strategy, if you are Rick Hahn, I understand taking one more shot. It requires cash though and it also requires not giving up any more draft picks. This offseason will be extremely interesting one way or another.

 

And that's an important point I forget to mention -- they may STILL opt to rebuild. None of their desirable pieces are pending free agents. Maybe they didn't like the offers they were getting, but they have another chance and more teams to sell to this winter.

Edited by Eminor3rd

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QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:33 AM)
I don't think their assets are worth less this time next year. They can get a similar package to what was offered for Sale and Q at that time. Frazier and Melky will be free agents. Teams have been overpaying for going to be free agents and Sox would also have comp pick option if CBA stays similar.

 

But if you see this team going nowhere, you are basically wasting a year of realigning the strategy of your team. It's distracting and not really a compelling way to lead a team to the playoffs as fast as possible.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 08:19 AM)
I'm bored too -- I get it, I really do.

 

But if you take a step back and look at the situation and the options, the roster is built to push through 2017. I have no doubt that Hahn considered changing that course after his "mired in mediocrity" statement, but I have to assume that teams were not willing to pay up. Rather than make a bad deal simply for the sake of changing something, there's an argument to be made to let things play out. I'm sure he could have moved some relievers and role players, but if the returns aren't meaningful, there's value in retaining the flexibility of competing in 2017 into this offseason, where I have no doubt that he'll try to see what he can get out of Sale/Quintana again.

 

For those asking "what can possibly be done to improve the team's chances in 2017," it starts with Abreu being Abreu, Frazier being Frazier, and Rodon finally turning into Rodon. Those guys have been bad, but there doesn't appear to be any physical reason, and the reality is just that sometimes guys have bad years. Remember when David Ortiz was cooked? Remember when Carlos Beltran was useless? Remember when it was ridiculous to acquire John Lackey? There are a ton of examples of teams giving up on good players only to see them flourish later, often elsewhere. We're all real good at coming up with convenient ad hoc explanations like "toxic clubhouse" or "new training program" or "obvious contract year effort" and other unsubstantiated, random crap, but when we do that, we're ignoring the fact that baseball is a competition where two really good players are doing everything they can to stop the other from succeeding, and no matter how much talent there is, one of them ALWAYS has to lose. Team sports aren't just coming in and pushing buttons -- sometimes you simply get beat.

 

If any those players simply did what was reasonably expected, we'd probably be a couple games over .500. If ALL of them simply did what they were reasonably expected, we'd be in the thick of the playoff hunt. Is the consistent disappointment of the team a systemic problem of the organization? Maybe. But if you're Rick Hahn, you're not going to fire yourself. You're going to do what ALL of us do every day: you're going to assume you're capable of doing your job, and make the best decision you can given the hand in front of you.

 

It's totally fair to be disappointed and upset -- I am too. But the decision to hold onto controllable assets into this offseason is absolutely a defensible decision, even if it's boring and feels bad. It very well may turn out to be the wrong one (assuming the offers on the table were what we think), and you certainly DON'T have to like it or agree with it, but it's a far cry from obvious incompetence.

 

In case anyone doesn't know about it, this is an awesome resource for when you want to start taking stock of the offseason: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GZ9...pub?output=html

 

Note the contracts that come off the books after next season: Melky, Frazier, Lawrie, Gonzalez. If we fail next year, all those guys will be hot deadline chips. Shields and Robertson will each have ~1.5yr/~$15m remaining, and will also be good chips if they're pitching well. Jones and Jennings will still have multiple years of control remaining. Sale and Quintana will be essentially JUST as valuable, but the team will be in a clearer position to sell.

 

And that's IF we fail. Those aforementioned bouncebacks could get us most of the way to contention, and I'm assuming Avisail Garcia will FINALLY be non-tendered, so we may just have a shot. The offseason shopping list is clear and achievable: catcher, first base/DH, corner OF.

 

Great post!

 

This is exactly what I have been trying to say for a couple weeks now, but you killed it. Well done.

 

While it may be a bit boring, holding pat was the right thing to do if you weren't going to trade one of Sale / Q. While it is a broken record, patching CF and C next offseason, maybe grabbing a good bullpen arm or two, and hoping Frazier and Abreu remember how to be elite sluggers, this is a playoff team. Making trades to make trades isn't wise, and while we all felt a little jaded yesterday, it was probably the right move.

 

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QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:37 AM)
But if you see this team going nowhere, you are basically wasting a year of realigning the strategy of your team. It's distracting and not really a compelling way to lead a team to the playoffs as fast as possible.

 

 

Absolutely. Trading guys for less than they are worth and dumping them just because makes you further away from the playoffs though IMO. Obviously we have no idea what wa soffered though.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:27 AM)
You said "nuh-uh" to a lot of what I posted, but you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary. For example, I'm not sure how you look at Frazier's stat line and come to the conclusion that he isn't far off from his norms. It just isn't true -- K rate is up, BABIP is way down, defense is way down, etc. The differences, purely in terms of WAR, between recent Abreu and Frazier seasons and what they're likely to finish with this year amount to something like 6 wins. If you projected Rodon to come it at three wins this year (safe), you're talking about a 9 win swing. That would absolutely put the Sox in contention.

 

You're welcome to hold your opinion, but you haven't shown anything to support it. I understand the sense of dread (I feel it too), and you may be right that the organization is incompetent in terms of player development, but neither of those two things support the idea that their deadline strategy is indefensible.

 

I'm not trying to defend the org, I'm just trying to explain the actions.

 

This isn't really meant to be a rebuttal to your argument, per se, but isn't it a bit funny how we always seem to be waiting on 2-3 guys to "play like they are capable of playing"? It's almost as if it should be expected for a couple guys to under perform on a year to year basis and having no backup plan for them not meeting expectations is a recipe for failure.

 

 

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:37 AM)
And that's an important point I forget to mention -- they may STILL opt to rebuild. None of their desirable pieces are pending free agents. Maybe they didn't like the offers they were getting, but they have another chance and more teams to sell to this winter.

 

For better or for worse, it would be pretty shocking if this front office decided to sell in the offseason. It goes against everything they've done for over a decade.

 

 

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QUOTE (gatnom @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:42 AM)
This isn't really meant to be a rebuttal to your argument, per se, but isn't it a bit funny how we always seem to be waiting on 2-3 guys to "play like they are capable of playing"? It's almost as if it should be expected for a couple guys to under perform on a year to year basis and having no backup plan for them not meeting expectations is a recipe for failure.

 

This is what happens when your roster is so shallow that you have no margin for error with your top players underperforming and lesser players picking up slack.

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QUOTE (gatnom @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:42 AM)
This isn't really meant to be a rebuttal to your argument, per se, but isn't it a bit funny how we always seem to be waiting on 2-3 guys to "play like they are capable of playing"? It's almost as if it should be expected for a couple guys to under perform on a year to year basis and having no backup plan for them not meeting expectations is a recipe for failure.

Bingo. I'm done entertaining what-if arguments. It never works out perfectly, but the Sox have put themselves in a position where it must, every year.

 

Yes, we can still sell next season. But we're just gonna be mediocre until then and it's gonna be another waste of everyone's time.

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QUOTE (gatnom @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:42 AM)
This isn't really meant to be a rebuttal to your argument, per se, but isn't it a bit funny how we always seem to be waiting on 2-3 guys to "play like they are capable of playing"? It's almost as if it should be expected for a couple guys to under perform on a year to year basis and having no backup plan for them not meeting expectations is a recipe for failure.

 

For sure. Like I said, I hate this year, too. It sucks. And I think it makes sense to question the FO at this point on its ability to scout and coach.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:27 AM)
You said "nuh-uh" to a lot of what I posted, but you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary. For example, I'm not sure how you look at Frazier's stat line and come to the conclusion that he isn't far off from his norms. It just isn't true -- K rate is up, BABIP is way down, defense is way down, etc. The differences, purely in terms of WAR, between recent Abreu and Frazier seasons and what they're likely to finish with this year amount to something like 6 wins. If you projected Rodon to come it at three wins this year (safe), you're talking about a 9 win swing. That would absolutely put the Sox in contention.

 

You're welcome to hold your opinion, but you haven't shown anything to support it. I understand the sense of dread (I feel it too), and you may be right that the organization is incompetent in terms of player development, but neither of those two things support the idea that their deadline strategy is indefensible.

 

I'm not trying to defend the org, I'm just trying to explain the actions.

 

Well, Abreu's trend unfortunately is very far from his 5.3 war his rookie year, which was nearly cut in half last year and it's hard to guarantee a bounce back, he hasn't shown the ability to adjust to the adjustments the league is making to him.

 

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2016/6/6/11863...e-sox-struggles

 

As far as Frazier goes, his WAR is being dragged down by his defense which fluctuates year to year, and generally doesn't get better as you age. His offensive numbers are down, while his OPS+, wOBA, WRC+, are all lower than career averages, but they are not career worst and are not far below his career averages. His BB% and ISO are actually career highs, as is his K%. It is a career low for BABIP, which gives you some hope, but the rest of the numbers don't tell me he's just automatically jumping back to a 4.5+ WAR player. It looks to me like another guy the Sox acquired who is having a more difficult than normal time switching leagues.

 

For Rodon, I hope he continues to grow as a pitcher, but for now he needs to continue his growth and actually reach a 3+ WAR season before I just count it as automatic.

 

I just really don't believe any of those changes should be the plan to get back into contention.

Edited by shakes

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QUOTE (shakes @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:59 AM)
Well, Abreu's trend unfortunately is very far from his 5.3 war his rookie year, which was nearly cut in half last year and it's hard to guarantee a bounce back, he hasn't shown the ability to adjust to the adjustments the league is making to him.

 

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2016/6/6/11863...e-sox-struggles

 

As far as Frazier goes, his WAR is being dragged down by his defense which fluctuates year to year, and generally doesn't get better as you age. His offensive numbers are down, while his OPS+, wOBA, WRC+, are all lower than career averages, but they are not career worst and are not far below his career averages. His BB% and ISO are actually career highs, as is his K%. It is a career low for BABIP, which gives you some hope, but the rest of the numbers don't tell me he's just automatically jumping back to a 4.5+ WAR player. It looks to me like another guy the Sox acquired who is having a more difficult than normal time switching leagues.

 

For Rodon, I hope he continues to grow as a pitcher, but for now he needs to continue his growth and actually reach a 3+ WAR season before I just count it as automatic.

 

I just really don't believe any of those changes should be the plan to get back into contention.

 

They're certainly not enough, you're right. But it's halfway, I think, which is close enough to want to go into the winter with your options open.

 

I mean, if I found out that there were good offers on the table for all the guys they might have moved yesterday, I wouldn't be taking this position. And maybe that "chain of command problem" tweet is evidence that's the case. But if we can assume that Hahn didn't get great offers, I think it's easy to see why he didn't pull any triggers. That's really all I'm trying to say. That we have no significant pending free agents makes it a different situation than usual.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 10:06 AM)
They're certainly not enough, you're right. But it's halfway, I think, which is close enough to want to go into the winter with your options open.

 

I mean, if I found out that there were good offers on the table for all the guys they might have moved yesterday, I wouldn't be taking this position. And maybe that "chain of command problem" tweet is evidence that's the case. But if we can assume that Hahn didn't get great offers, I think it's easy to see why he didn't pull any triggers. That's really all I'm trying to say. That we have no significant pending free agents makes it a different situation than usual.

 

 

But part of being a good GM is creating a market and getting the offers you like. It's another argument I just don't find defensible anymore, not saying by you, just in general.

 

Look at the Yankees. Cashman had the two best bullpen arms and got teams to pay huge prices for them, hence dictating the market. He got a good price for a 39 year old outfielder. The Sox on the other hand were shopping the two best starters, one of the better lefty relievers with a good contract, a closer, could also have shopped Nate Jones, a productive outfielder on a good contract, two secondary starters which were going for valuable assets, and wound up with the Cardinals #12 prospect who is viewed by most as a 4th outfielder.

 

That's on the GM for not getting to the offers they thought were good offers. The Yankees, Brewers, A's, Rays and Pirates all found deals for their assets. Why is it that whenever the Sox have something to sell there just doesn't seem to be a market for their players, even thought the market exists for other teams with similar assets? The conclusion I'm being forced to accept is an inadequate front office.

 

Let's face it they blew this deadline spectacularly. Just like the blew the deadline last year by delusionally believing they were contenders , and I have no faith in them cleaning it up this winter.

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QUOTE (shakes @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 10:49 AM)
But part of being a good GM is creating a market and getting the offers you like. It's another argument I just don't find defensible anymore, not saying by you, just in general.

 

Look at the Yankees. Cashman had the two best bullpen arms and got teams to pay huge prices for them, hence dictating the market. He got a good price for a 39 year old outfielder. The Sox on the other hand were shopping the two best starters, one of the better lefty relievers with a good contract, a closer, could also have shopped Nate Jones, a productive outfielder on a good contract, two secondary starters which were going for valuable assets, and wound up with the Cardinals #12 prospect who is viewed by most as a 4th outfielder.

 

That's on the GM for not getting to the offers they thought were good offers. The Yankees, Brewers, A's, Rays and Pirates all found deals for their assets. Why is it that whenever the Sox have something to sell there just doesn't seem to be a market for their players, even thought the market exists for other teams with similar assets? The conclusion I'm being forced to accept is an inadequate front office.

 

Let's face it they blew this deadline spectacularly. Just like the blew the deadline last year by delusionally believing they were contenders , and I have no faith in them cleaning it up this winter.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 09:37 AM)
And that's an important point I forget to mention -- they may STILL opt to rebuild. None of their desirable pieces are pending free agents. Maybe they didn't like the offers they were getting, but they have another chance and more teams to sell to this winter.

 

This is the big thing. This is the worst free agent market in history, and we have a TON of pieces that could go.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 11:21 AM)
This is the big thing. This is the worst free agent market in history, and we have a TON of pieces that could go.

 

Take this for what it may be worth to you, regarding Buster Olney's comments this morning about the Sox and the possibility of moves this winter / rebuild. Just heard from a source who said to not discount JR in everything that happens this off season.

 

That he DOES NOT WANT to rebuild....and JR has 51% of the vote as it turns out in anything that takes place with the franchise. Meaning his vote/voice is the final one.

 

Mark

Edited by Lip Man 1

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 12:21 PM)
This is the big thing. This is the worst free agent market in history, and we have a TON of pieces that could go.

 

 

The Sox aren't going to start the rebuild this winter. The lack of activity yesterday is proof of this. Next year is year 3 of the infamous 3 year plan. The Sox should be able to pull a Yankees and load up the farm next trade deadline.

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QUOTE (Footlongcomiskeydog @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 12:35 PM)
The Sox aren't going to start the rebuild this winter. The lack of activity yesterday is proof of this. Next year is year 3 of the infamous 3 year plan. The Sox should be able to pull a Yankees and load up the farm next trade deadline.

You are right. Proof positive. Could you imagine what Atlanta could have received for Shelby Miller if they would have just traded him last deadline as opposed to the winter?

 

These guys are so stupid, they should listen to message boards. Who cares what the offers are, if they are going to give you pennies on the dollar, take the pennies because message board posters love prospects until they suck for a week, then they are despicable.

 

Just remember listening to fans regarding personnel will lead you to bad things. Someone bumped a Bonafacio thread from last year a couple of months ago, and there was a post by someone that no one should complain about Hahn as he did what Soxtalk wanted him to do. Well, that didn't work out, and not only did it become not what Soxtalk. it wasn't even Hahn. It was all Kenny Williams.

 

Basically, most of the people complaining wanted a trade just to make a trade. What good does it do to trade Melky or Robertson for another Avi Garcia (who many were extremely high on btw) .

 

See what's out there this winter. I think either they trade a couple of these guys away, or JR is going to jack up the payroll. I think the half assed approach is over. At least I hope so.

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If there's one thing that defined this last trading window, it was teams receiving pennies on the dollar.

Edited by bmags

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