Is this a PR Disaster for the Sox?

[Hatchetman]

Are you sure about this? How much worse can this organization get when you think holisitcally about the state of things today? The team is at the bottom of the league in attendance and TV ratings. The farm system is in the bottom five in all of baseball. Four losing seasons in a row which matches the longest streak in the team's history. Only one playoff appearance and playoff win in over a decade now. A management team whose credibility is increasingly being questioned in the media. What does "rock bottom" look like in comparison to all of this?

 

Maybe they can make a nice swimming lake at the bottom of the limestone quarry.

[Bob Sacamano]

Big Avi fan eh?

 

Hawk's comments about Avi yesterday were embarassing.

[HeGone7]

The White Sox are pretty lucky to have anyone left to tell other fans how to act/behave.

 

The Score guys were doing the exact same thing yesterday afternoon....everyone questioning the front office or ownership was told quite bluntly...why be a fan of that team if it bothers you so much or you don't trust them to make the right decisions?

 

Well, that leads to the whole point of fandom...none of us started following the White Sox franchise because of the ownership group or GM, it's because of the uniform itself, and the players who wear that jersey. So I'll have to disagree on that point, that just because you don't believe in the front office or JR means you have to stop being a fan of the team itself. That's pretty much ridiculous.

 

I'd like to consider myself a rational person. For me, I love sports. Played them, love to talk them, prefer to watch them over standard TV, etc. It doesn't effect my life but I'd say I'm a passionate fan. If they lose, I'll give it a "damn it" or "these guys suck" but then I go on with my day. So it isn't "my life" per say, but I love the game. I don't pass any judgement on those where it plays a bigger role in their lives, I just see it for what it is. Entertainment, hobby, etc.

 

This franchise though, given the geographic situation (2 teams splitting a city), is comprised mainly of the "die hard" fans. Which is a big deal to me because they have always stuck by you through thick and thin, and 95% of this franchise is in that thin category. They put up with the step-child type attitudes socially. They expect more and so on. I've seen "fair weather" used to describe people, and I'm sorry, if you're on a board like this, you're not a fair weather fan. You don't go to those lengths to talk about your team. So using that as an insult is silly/immature. My friends who are Sox fans are all big baseball fans. I have a lot of friends who really, truly don't care but if they had to pick - they choose to be a Cub fan. Not an attack on the Cubs, it's just the reality. They have more casual fans.

 

Now, as far as this fan base goes, I have to say, this feels different. It's beyond the normal "we stink". And that is troublesome. I can't recall a time in my life where so many people I've talked to are so upset, or "sickened," that it would alter them being a fan of the team permanently. And these people aren't just venting, there is a genuine distain that has taken a toll on them. That kind of thing only happens to people who truly care. That doesn't stem from bad play, because you can stomach that. It stems from feeling like the organization doesn't care about them. Which in all the bad years I've seen, this is a first to hear/feel from those people. My dad has been a fan for 65+ years and he literally watches the Cub games. Doesn't root for them, but he can't stand the Sox anymore and still loves watching baseball. Right now, the Cubs have a watchable product - even if you're rooting for them to lose.

 

To your point, you don't root for the ownership, you root for the team. What you're misunderstanding, and what those people are saying, is whether you're a casual fan, an intense fan, or whatever - this ownership/management group has essentially ruined their ability to enjoy baseball. So while I get your point "people should be a fan of the team itself," this continuous failure/incompetency/etc is having an effect on their ability to enjoy the team itself. That is a major, major problem.

 

It's one thing if you're bad. Things happen. Your star players who help you draw fans can still perform well in those cases, just other teams may be better that season. You look at it and search for the optimism, "there is always next year".

 

When you can't even say that, you get that "what's the point?" feeling. Why waste the energy? And when your fan base is smart enough to point the blame at the front office/ownership, hostility/animosity grows because you can't blame players for simply just not being good. The guys who are lining their pockets based off the money you're spending to see the team are the issue. They're responsible for assembling a product warranting your money being spent. They're failing miserably. Not 100 losses every year miserably, but this is potentially worse. I'm of the business mindset that you're better off being terrible so you can, in theory, get better. You get franchise changing players through the draft (see the Cubs, Astros, Royals, disregard the 76ers, etc.). We're "mired in mediocrity."

 

If it's the team, that's one thing. When your hand is being forced by ownership/executives to not care about their product, it's another. So I get where those people are coming from.

 

I've never understood people who can change what team they root for. At the same time, those are frustrated people and eventually, enough is enough. That same thing applies to a job, a gf/spouse, a friend, whatever. Eventually, it isn't worth their time, effort, energy, and in this case, their money.

 

This situation is unique because you have a fan base who is so tired of failure that a majority of them feel the only way it's possible to win is to tear it down. Most teams fear tearing it down because it'll be bad for business. When you're already one of the worst draws in baseball, both for tv and the ticket sales, it would appear to be a disaster to do it if you're in the FO. However, this fan base is begging for it because they know it's necessary. They know that the front office has badly damaged the franchise by not doing their job well. The brand itself, which we should be rooting for, is suffering and they're to blame. When given the opportunity and support from the fanbase to sell, something both parties know is greatly needed, they hold and do nothing. They don't add, they hardly subtract - they hold. Yikes.

 

The way I see it. When a player stinks, you cut/trade him. When a manager is bad, he gets fired. If your GM/President make bad moves - they get fired. And when all of that is occurring but these people all still have jobs - you have to point to the highest ranking person and place the blame there. Once you do, you're holding him accountable. So it's up to him to completely turn-over everything, or leave. Knowing it's a business and how unlikely that is, you're left feeling hopeless as a fan. So why bother? I get that and I get where everyone is coming from. And I agree, this franchise would be better with a new owner. Being that most of us see him doing the same nonsense with his other team, it really screams that this guy is part of the problem. He needs to go but unlike players, coaches, fans - that is extremely unlikely. Basically, you're F'd.

 

Now, I am willing to give them through the offseason. I'd have preferred they sold at the deadline but I understand a complete franchise shift may take more time than the few weeks of preparation before the deadline. In saying that, should nothing change, I will feel like one of those people who is tired of wasting time on this group. I'll cheer for them if they're on but I won't care enough to follow them religiously. The point of sports is to compete. This is not a competitive team/organization right now. They're "mediocre" in record and a joke in reality. And when you know where the problems are but they're still around, it says they really don't care about you - the fan. When you're a passionate fan, like most Sox fans appear to be, that is a really bad look. You've managed to alienate a vast majority of your formerly unwavering fan base. That, regardless if I share the sentiment, is a disaster. Sports is such a big business now, I'm not sure it matters, but it would not shock me to see this go way south if they make the wrong moves this offseason. Anything short of an overhaul offensively, where you are a realistic contender, or a complete fire sale - will be a big mistake for the White Sox. You will lose what little casual "Chicago Fan" contingency that you have, and you will lose a lot of "die hards" who are just tired of the same incompetence. Not a good situation.

Edited August 3, 2016 by HeGone7

[Hatchetman]

Damn HeGone, you really hit it out of the park with that post. Somebody needs to print that out and shove it into JRs hands.

[captain54]

They know that the front office has badly damaged the franchise by not doing their job well.

 

Consider the restrictions handed down from the big man upstairs… Consider Hahn being hamstrung, by his moves needing to cleared by Kenny Williams…

 

Its like Rick Hahn is trying to be a professional GM of a big market MLB franchise. with an old 2001 Gateway computer with AOL dialup internet and an old Blackberry from 2002...

 

Bottom line, if you really think about it.. JR is doing his job VERY well… keeping the franchise financially afloat..keeping the investors happy.. all while carrying bottom of the barrel attendance numbers and TV ratings.. and all while putting a mediocre product on the field….

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Black_Jack29]

Consider the restrictions handed down from the big man upstairs… Consider Hahn being hamstrung, by his moves needing to cleared by Kenny Williams…

 

Its like Rick Hahn is trying to be a professional GM of a big market MLB franchise. with an old 2001 Gateway computer with AOL dialup internet and an old Blackberry from 2002...

 

Bottom line, if you really think about it.. JR is doing his job VERY well… keeping the franchise financially afloat..keeping the investors happy.. all while carrying bottom of the barrel attendance numbers and TV ratings.. and all while putting a mediocre product on the field….

 

I agree that there's a good chance that it's JR that doesn't want to do a full or partial rebuild going into next season. I may be proven wrong, but that's where I'd put my money.

 

[caulfield12]

The problem is Hahn knew all the payroll restrictions when he took the job, and about KW's status as his superior/supervisor/mentor, whatever you want to call it.

 

During these four or five years, we've been unable to grow revenues and expand payroll....at least not since the blip of the 2014-15 off-season when we foolishly tried to spend our way into contention but didn't really come close.

 

I can't imagine many of the die-hard season ticket holders not ripping up or throwing away anything having to do with 2017 right now.

 

 

But the solution is VERY VERY simple. They're going to have to trade Sale OR Quintana this off-season AND be willing to up the payroll into the $140-150 million range in order to acquire some of the pieces they can't trade for.

 

You can see them making one of the trades, but raising payroll in the face of declining revenues, in a FA market with a declining rate of return on investment.....yeah, not so much.

 

HEGONE7 said it well.

 

JR has to have a long conversation with the board of directors and decide if he really trusts Hahn AND/OR KW to stick around for this rebuild/retooling. Realistically, they need to start making checklists (Stone said this on the Score today) of 1-20 or 1-50 of all the areas of minor league development/scouting/evaluation (baserunning, fielding, fundamentals, advancing runners, backing up bases, positioning on throws, bunting), etc., and bringing in more "experts" from the outside (see Hostetler or Paddy) who can replace long-time Sox scouts and coaching staff who quite simply aren't getting the job done.

 

 

At any rate, right now....there's just ZERO hope for 2017. It would have been better had they started the process at the trade deadline, but they still have August and the offseason. Unfortunately, we won't get the advantage of seeing Tilson now because he's injured. We know that Sanchez probably isn't an everyday player. It's just going to be frustrating watching guys like Shuck, Avi Garcia, Morneau and the Navarro soaking up playing time when they're unlikely to be part of the team next year. The same thing happened at the end of 2015, when they almost completely stopped playing Saladino over the last couple of months....because they wanted to give Alexei Ramirez the best opportunity to earn money as a FA???? It just didn't make any sense, and still doesn't.

 

Send Fulmer back to AAA so he can start. Let Ranaudo get some more starts. Play Saladino, and Tilson when he (hopefully) returns from his hamstring injury. Heck, bring up Burdi for awhile and see how he does out of the bullpen in September. Just give the fans SOME TANGIBLE reason to be interested in following this team going forward.

 

 

 

It's pretty sad when I was watching the game yesterday and a fellow Sox fan said...well, at least the Twins have Sano and Kepler and Berrios and Buxton (even if they're in last)....and they'll have a very high draft pick next year...so what do we have to look forward to in terms of young impact position players? Difference makers...? Are there any?

Edited August 3, 2016 by caulfield12

[captain54]

JR has to have a long conversation with the board of directors and decide if he really trusts Hahn AND/OR KW to stick around for this rebuild/retooling.

 

My money would be on JR evaluating whether or not the Kenny Hahn combo is capable of operating within the franchise framework of retooling annually with middle of the pack payroll..It just may be that he's seen enough, and this dynamic duo is on the hot seat of all hot seats...

 

 

[Sleepy Harold]

My money would be on JR evaluating whether or not the Kenny Hahn combo is capable of operating within the franchise framework of retooling annually with middle of the pack payroll..It just may be that he's seen enough, and this dynamic duo is on the hot seat of all hot seats...

One can hope that this is true, but the pessimist in me is expecting both of them to be retained.

[Flash Tizzle]

Jim Bowden ranked all GM's at the deadline on ESPN. Hahn received a F. More than his analysis, anyone happen to read it and know if there were any scouts/insiders quoted?

[bmags]

After seeing the way the Bulls reacted to the offseason ... I have my doubts.

[Lip Man 1]

Seeing as you are venting, your last line is misleading, at best. But again, this is a message board, so people are able to respond to that.

 

I thought my comment was reasonable...not snarky, not insulting, not condescending. Wasn't venting at all as a matter of fact.

 

Unlike others who feel the almost pathological need to show themselves to be "right" and come across arrogantly.

 

Mark

Edited August 3, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[Lip Man 1]

Lip I think there were some pretty good years between 1968-1980. 72-73-74 with Dick Allen and the Winnning Ugly of 77 were exciting years. People were charged up

 

El:

 

Between 1968 and 1980 the Sox had two winning seasons (72 & 77), one .500 season and 10 losing ones. If the Sox go on to have a losing record this year, it will be the seventh losing season in ten years. You have to go back to 68-80 to find a streak that had the same amount at least of losing years is the point I was trying to make.

 

1972 and 1977 were fabulous seasons...lived out at the park those summers but the rest was pretty bad on the field, in the stands and with all the rumors of moving. Not a good time or stretch at all.

 

Mark

 

[Lip Man 1]

A switch in GM and Manager brought a 92 win season in 1972.

 

Captain:

 

Slight correction. It was 87 wins, not 92. Still a tremendous record considering it was a shortened season due to the labor impasse over the pension fund. If memory serves that was the second best record in the A.L. and third best in all of baseball.

 

Naturally though it was the Sox luck to have the team with the best record in the league in the same division.

 

Mark

 

[Lip Man 1]

I agree that there's a good chance that it's JR that doesn't want to do a full or partial rebuild going into next season. I may be proven wrong, but that's where I'd put my money.

 

Two sources recently told me that you would be correct if you placed your bet in JR's direction. He does not want a rebuild so unless something drastically changes there will not be.

 

Mark

[Sleepy Harold]

Jim Bowden ranked all GM's at the deadline on ESPN. Hahn received a F. More than his analysis, anyone happen to read it and know if there were any scouts/insiders quoted?

No just his opinion noted, essentially stated that the Sox have been treading water for a while and doesn't look like that's changing soon, but that they could switch gears in the off-season. Basically the same stuff we've been fed, nothing really noteworthy besides the "F" grade.

[Dunt]

I'd like to consider myself a rational person. For me, I love sports. Played them, love to talk them, prefer to watch them over standard TV, etc. It doesn't effect my life but I'd say I'm a passionate fan. If they lose, I'll give it a "damn it" or "these guys suck" but then I go on with my day. So it isn't "my life" per say, but I love the game. I don't pass any judgement on those where it plays a bigger role in their lives, I just see it for what it is. Entertainment, hobby, etc.

 

This franchise though, given the geographic situation (2 teams splitting a city), is comprised mainly of the "die hard" fans. Which is a big deal to me because they have always stuck by you through thick and thin, and 95% of this franchise is in that thin category. They put up with the step-child type attitudes socially. They expect more and so on. I've seen "fair weather" used to describe people, and I'm sorry, if you're on a board like this, you're not a fair weather fan. You don't go to those lengths to talk about your team. So using that as an insult is silly/immature. My friends who are Sox fans are all big baseball fans. I have a lot of friends who really, truly don't care but if they had to pick - they choose to be a Cub fan. Not an attack on the Cubs, it's just the reality. They have more casual fans.

 

Now, as far as this fan base goes, I have to say, this feels different. It's beyond the normal "we stink". And that is troublesome. I can't recall a time in my life where so many people I've talked to are so upset, or "sickened," that it would alter them being a fan of the team permanently. And these people aren't just venting, there is a genuine distain that has taken a toll on them. That kind of thing only happens to people who truly care. That doesn't stem from bad play, because you can stomach that. It stems from feeling like the organization doesn't care about them. Which in all the bad years I've seen, this is a first to hear/feel from those people. My dad has been a fan for 65+ years and he literally watches the Cub games. Doesn't root for them, but he can't stand the Sox anymore and still loves watching baseball. Right now, the Cubs have a watchable product - even if you're rooting for them to lose.

 

To your point, you don't root for the ownership, you root for the team. What you're misunderstanding, and what those people are saying, is whether you're a casual fan, an intense fan, or whatever - this ownership/management group has essentially ruined their ability to enjoy baseball. So while I get your point "people should be a fan of the team itself," this continuous failure/incompetency/etc is having an effect on their ability to enjoy the team itself. That is a major, major problem.

 

It's one thing if you're bad. Things happen. Your star players who help you draw fans can still perform well in those cases, just other teams may be better that season. You look at it and search for the optimism, "there is always next year".

 

When you can't even say that, you get that "what's the point?" feeling. Why waste the energy? And when your fan base is smart enough to point the blame at the front office/ownership, hostility/animosity grows because you can't blame players for simply just not being good. The guys who are lining their pockets based off the money you're spending to see the team are the issue. They're responsible for assembling a product warranting your money being spent. They're failing miserably. Not 100 losses every year miserably, but this is potentially worse. I'm of the business mindset that you're better off being terrible so you can, in theory, get better. You get franchise changing players through the draft (see the Cubs, Astros, Royals, disregard the 76ers, etc.). We're "mired in mediocrity."

 

If it's the team, that's one thing. When your hand is being forced by ownership/executives to not care about their product, it's another. So I get where those people are coming from.

 

I've never understood people who can change what team they root for. At the same time, those are frustrated people and eventually, enough is enough. That same thing applies to a job, a gf/spouse, a friend, whatever. Eventually, it isn't worth their time, effort, energy, and in this case, their money.

 

This situation is unique because you have a fan base who is so tired of failure that a majority of them feel the only way it's possible to win is to tear it down. Most teams fear tearing it down because it'll be bad for business. When you're already one of the worst draws in baseball, both for tv and the ticket sales, it would appear to be a disaster to do it if you're in the FO. However, this fan base is begging for it because they know it's necessary. They know that the front office has badly damaged the franchise by not doing their job well. The brand itself, which we should be rooting for, is suffering and they're to blame. When given the opportunity and support from the fanbase to sell, something both parties know is greatly needed, they hold and do nothing. They don't add, they hardly subtract - they hold. Yikes.

 

The way I see it. When a player stinks, you cut/trade him. When a manager is bad, he gets fired. If your GM/President make bad moves - they get fired. And when all of that is occurring but these people all still have jobs - you have to point to the highest ranking person and place the blame there. Once you do, you're holding him accountable. So it's up to him to completely turn-over everything, or leave. Knowing it's a business and how unlikely that is, you're left feeling hopeless as a fan. So why bother? I get that and I get where everyone is coming from. And I agree, this franchise would be better with a new owner. Being that most of us see him doing the same nonsense with his other team, it really screams that this guy is part of the problem. He needs to go but unlike players, coaches, fans - that is extremely unlikely. Basically, you're F'd.

 

Now, I am willing to give them through the offseason. I'd have preferred they sold at the deadline but I understand a complete franchise shift may take more time than the few weeks of preparation before the deadline. In saying that, should nothing change, I will feel like one of those people who is tired of wasting time on this group. I'll cheer for them if they're on but I won't care enough to follow them religiously. The point of sports is to compete. This is not a competitive team/organization right now. They're "mediocre" in record and a joke in reality. And when you know where the problems are but they're still around, it says they really don't care about you - the fan. When you're a passionate fan, like most Sox fans appear to be, that is a really bad look. You've managed to alienate a vast majority of your formerly unwavering fan base. That, regardless if I share the sentiment, is a disaster. Sports is such a big business now, I'm not sure it matters, but it would not shock me to see this go way south if they make the wrong moves this offseason. Anything short of an overhaul offensively, where you are a realistic contender, or a complete fire sale - will be a big mistake for the White Sox. You will lose what little casual "Chicago Fan" contingency that you have, and you will lose a lot of "die hards" who are just tired of the same incompetence. Not a good situation.

 

One of the best posts I've seen on this board.

[captain54]

Captain:

 

Slight correction. It was 87 wins, not 92. Still a tremendous record considering it was a shortened season due to the labor impasse over the pension fund. If memory serves that was the second best record in the A.L. and third best in all of baseball.

 

Naturally though it was the Sox luck to have the team with the best record in the league in the same division.

 

Mark

 

Correct my bad.. I was doing percentages and didn't factor in the shortened season…

 

The last time the Sox had more than 4 consecutive losing seasons was 1944 - 1950 .. 7 in a row.. that's around 70 yrs ago… and then did not have a losing season from 1951 - 1967… 16 straight years.. remarkable..

[Black_Jack29]

Two sources recently told me that you would be correct if you placed your bet in JR's direction. He does not want a rebuild so unless something drastically changes there will not be.

 

If Hahn is able to get a really nice mix of ML talent and near-ready prospects in return for Sale, where the Sox might take half a step back in 2017 but would be able to move forward in 2018, hopefully JR would let him make that deal. Otherwise, we're going to have 77-83 win teams for the next few years.

 

[SI1020]

At me to the chorus. That was a damn fine post by HeGone 7.

[SCCWS]

I would add another option. For whatever reason, the FO took the trade deadline off. I am sure there will be talk of waiver deals for the rest of the month. But what about the manager. I would assume Robin or the FO will decide to end this after the season. But as I have posted a couple of times over the last few months, why wait?? Renteria would be a name the comes up when/if robin leaves. Why not test drive him now during a period where games will matter, at least to many of the opponents. Obviously, my suggestion would make no sense if the FO has come to the conclusion that Renteria would not be a candidate.

 

[Sleepy Harold]

I'd like to consider myself a rational person. For me, I love sports. Played them, love to talk them, prefer to watch them over standard TV, etc. It doesn't effect my life but I'd say I'm a passionate fan. If they lose, I'll give it a "damn it" or "these guys suck" but then I go on with my day. So it isn't "my life" per say, but I love the game. I don't pass any judgement on those where it plays a bigger role in their lives, I just see it for what it is. Entertainment, hobby, etc.

 

This franchise though, given the geographic situation (2 teams splitting a city), is comprised mainly of the "die hard" fans. Which is a big deal to me because they have always stuck by you through thick and thin, and 95% of this franchise is in that thin category. They put up with the step-child type attitudes socially. They expect more and so on. I've seen "fair weather" used to describe people, and I'm sorry, if you're on a board like this, you're not a fair weather fan. You don't go to those lengths to talk about your team. So using that as an insult is silly/immature. My friends who are Sox fans are all big baseball fans. I have a lot of friends who really, truly don't care but if they had to pick - they choose to be a Cub fan. Not an attack on the Cubs, it's just the reality. They have more casual fans.

 

Now, as far as this fan base goes, I have to say, this feels different. It's beyond the normal "we stink". And that is troublesome. I can't recall a time in my life where so many people I've talked to are so upset, or "sickened," that it would alter them being a fan of the team permanently. And these people aren't just venting, there is a genuine distain that has taken a toll on them. That kind of thing only happens to people who truly care. That doesn't stem from bad play, because you can stomach that. It stems from feeling like the organization doesn't care about them. Which in all the bad years I've seen, this is a first to hear/feel from those people. My dad has been a fan for 65+ years and he literally watches the Cub games. Doesn't root for them, but he can't stand the Sox anymore and still loves watching baseball. Right now, the Cubs have a watchable product - even if you're rooting for them to lose.

 

To your point, you don't root for the ownership, you root for the team. What you're misunderstanding, and what those people are saying, is whether you're a casual fan, an intense fan, or whatever - this ownership/management group has essentially ruined their ability to enjoy baseball. So while I get your point "people should be a fan of the team itself," this continuous failure/incompetency/etc is having an effect on their ability to enjoy the team itself. That is a major, major problem.

 

It's one thing if you're bad. Things happen. Your star players who help you draw fans can still perform well in those cases, just other teams may be better that season. You look at it and search for the optimism, "there is always next year".

 

When you can't even say that, you get that "what's the point?" feeling. Why waste the energy? And when your fan base is smart enough to point the blame at the front office/ownership, hostility/animosity grows because you can't blame players for simply just not being good. The guys who are lining their pockets based off the money you're spending to see the team are the issue. They're responsible for assembling a product warranting your money being spent. They're failing miserably. Not 100 losses every year miserably, but this is potentially worse. I'm of the business mindset that you're better off being terrible so you can, in theory, get better. You get franchise changing players through the draft (see the Cubs, Astros, Royals, disregard the 76ers, etc.). We're "mired in mediocrity."

 

If it's the team, that's one thing. When your hand is being forced by ownership/executives to not care about their product, it's another. So I get where those people are coming from.

 

I've never understood people who can change what team they root for. At the same time, those are frustrated people and eventually, enough is enough. That same thing applies to a job, a gf/spouse, a friend, whatever. Eventually, it isn't worth their time, effort, energy, and in this case, their money.

 

This situation is unique because you have a fan base who is so tired of failure that a majority of them feel the only way it's possible to win is to tear it down. Most teams fear tearing it down because it'll be bad for business. When you're already one of the worst draws in baseball, both for tv and the ticket sales, it would appear to be a disaster to do it if you're in the FO. However, this fan base is begging for it because they know it's necessary. They know that the front office has badly damaged the franchise by not doing their job well. The brand itself, which we should be rooting for, is suffering and they're to blame. When given the opportunity and support from the fanbase to sell, something both parties know is greatly needed, they hold and do nothing. They don't add, they hardly subtract - they hold. Yikes.

 

The way I see it. When a player stinks, you cut/trade him. When a manager is bad, he gets fired. If your GM/President make bad moves - they get fired. And when all of that is occurring but these people all still have jobs - you have to point to the highest ranking person and place the blame there. Once you do, you're holding him accountable. So it's up to him to completely turn-over everything, or leave. Knowing it's a business and how unlikely that is, you're left feeling hopeless as a fan. So why bother? I get that and I get where everyone is coming from. And I agree, this franchise would be better with a new owner. Being that most of us see him doing the same nonsense with his other team, it really screams that this guy is part of the problem. He needs to go but unlike players, coaches, fans - that is extremely unlikely. Basically, you're F'd.

 

Now, I am willing to give them through the offseason. I'd have preferred they sold at the deadline but I understand a complete franchise shift may take more time than the few weeks of preparation before the deadline. In saying that, should nothing change, I will feel like one of those people who is tired of wasting time on this group. I'll cheer for them if they're on but I won't care enough to follow them religiously. The point of sports is to compete. This is not a competitive team/organization right now. They're "mediocre" in record and a joke in reality. And when you know where the problems are but they're still around, it says they really don't care about you - the fan. When you're a passionate fan, like most Sox fans appear to be, that is a really bad look. You've managed to alienate a vast majority of your formerly unwavering fan base. That, regardless if I share the sentiment, is a disaster. Sports is such a big business now, I'm not sure it matters, but it would not shock me to see this go way south if they make the wrong moves this offseason. Anything short of an overhaul offensively, where you are a realistic contender, or a complete fire sale - will be a big mistake for the White Sox. You will lose what little casual "Chicago Fan" contingency that you have, and you will lose a lot of "die hards" who are just tired of the same incompetence. Not a good situation.

Bravo! This hits the nail on the head. I couldn't express my feelings towards the current situation the White Sox are in any better than this.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Sleepy Harold

[Bob Sacamano]

I'd like to consider myself a rational person. For me, I love sports. Played them, love to talk them, prefer to watch them over standard TV, etc. It doesn't effect my life but I'd say I'm a passionate fan. If they lose, I'll give it a "damn it" or "these guys suck" but then I go on with my day. So it isn't "my life" per say, but I love the game. I don't pass any judgement on those where it plays a bigger role in their lives, I just see it for what it is. Entertainment, hobby, etc.

 

This franchise though, given the geographic situation (2 teams splitting a city), is comprised mainly of the "die hard" fans. Which is a big deal to me because they have always stuck by you through thick and thin, and 95% of this franchise is in that thin category. They put up with the step-child type attitudes socially. They expect more and so on. I've seen "fair weather" used to describe people, and I'm sorry, if you're on a board like this, you're not a fair weather fan. You don't go to those lengths to talk about your team. So using that as an insult is silly/immature. My friends who are Sox fans are all big baseball fans. I have a lot of friends who really, truly don't care but if they had to pick - they choose to be a Cub fan. Not an attack on the Cubs, it's just the reality. They have more casual fans.

 

Now, as far as this fan base goes, I have to say, this feels different. It's beyond the normal "we stink". And that is troublesome. I can't recall a time in my life where so many people I've talked to are so upset, or "sickened," that it would alter them being a fan of the team permanently. And these people aren't just venting, there is a genuine distain that has taken a toll on them. That kind of thing only happens to people who truly care. That doesn't stem from bad play, because you can stomach that. It stems from feeling like the organization doesn't care about them. Which in all the bad years I've seen, this is a first to hear/feel from those people. My dad has been a fan for 65+ years and he literally watches the Cub games. Doesn't root for them, but he can't stand the Sox anymore and still loves watching baseball. Right now, the Cubs have a watchable product - even if you're rooting for them to lose.

 

To your point, you don't root for the ownership, you root for the team. What you're misunderstanding, and what those people are saying, is whether you're a casual fan, an intense fan, or whatever - this ownership/management group has essentially ruined their ability to enjoy baseball. So while I get your point "people should be a fan of the team itself," this continuous failure/incompetency/etc is having an effect on their ability to enjoy the team itself. That is a major, major problem.

 

It's one thing if you're bad. Things happen. Your star players who help you draw fans can still perform well in those cases, just other teams may be better that season. You look at it and search for the optimism, "there is always next year".

 

When you can't even say that, you get that "what's the point?" feeling. Why waste the energy? And when your fan base is smart enough to point the blame at the front office/ownership, hostility/animosity grows because you can't blame players for simply just not being good. The guys who are lining their pockets based off the money you're spending to see the team are the issue. They're responsible for assembling a product warranting your money being spent. They're failing miserably. Not 100 losses every year miserably, but this is potentially worse. I'm of the business mindset that you're better off being terrible so you can, in theory, get better. You get franchise changing players through the draft (see the Cubs, Astros, Royals, disregard the 76ers, etc.). We're "mired in mediocrity."

 

If it's the team, that's one thing. When your hand is being forced by ownership/executives to not care about their product, it's another. So I get where those people are coming from.

 

I've never understood people who can change what team they root for. At the same time, those are frustrated people and eventually, enough is enough. That same thing applies to a job, a gf/spouse, a friend, whatever. Eventually, it isn't worth their time, effort, energy, and in this case, their money.

 

This situation is unique because you have a fan base who is so tired of failure that a majority of them feel the only way it's possible to win is to tear it down. Most teams fear tearing it down because it'll be bad for business. When you're already one of the worst draws in baseball, both for tv and the ticket sales, it would appear to be a disaster to do it if you're in the FO. However, this fan base is begging for it because they know it's necessary. They know that the front office has badly damaged the franchise by not doing their job well. The brand itself, which we should be rooting for, is suffering and they're to blame. When given the opportunity and support from the fanbase to sell, something both parties know is greatly needed, they hold and do nothing. They don't add, they hardly subtract - they hold. Yikes.

 

The way I see it. When a player stinks, you cut/trade him. When a manager is bad, he gets fired. If your GM/President make bad moves - they get fired. And when all of that is occurring but these people all still have jobs - you have to point to the highest ranking person and place the blame there. Once you do, you're holding him accountable. So it's up to him to completely turn-over everything, or leave. Knowing it's a business and how unlikely that is, you're left feeling hopeless as a fan. So why bother? I get that and I get where everyone is coming from. And I agree, this franchise would be better with a new owner. Being that most of us see him doing the same nonsense with his other team, it really screams that this guy is part of the problem. He needs to go but unlike players, coaches, fans - that is extremely unlikely. Basically, you're F'd.

 

Now, I am willing to give them through the offseason. I'd have preferred they sold at the deadline but I understand a complete franchise shift may take more time than the few weeks of preparation before the deadline. In saying that, should nothing change, I will feel like one of those people who is tired of wasting time on this group. I'll cheer for them if they're on but I won't care enough to follow them religiously. The point of sports is to compete. This is not a competitive team/organization right now. They're "mediocre" in record and a joke in reality. And when you know where the problems are but they're still around, it says they really don't care about you - the fan. When you're a passionate fan, like most Sox fans appear to be, that is a really bad look. You've managed to alienate a vast majority of your formerly unwavering fan base. That, regardless if I share the sentiment, is a disaster. Sports is such a big business now, I'm not sure it matters, but it would not shock me to see this go way south if they make the wrong moves this offseason. Anything short of an overhaul offensively, where you are a realistic contender, or a complete fire sale - will be a big mistake for the White Sox. You will lose what little casual "Chicago Fan" contingency that you have, and you will lose a lot of "die hards" who are just tired of the same incompetence. Not a good situation.

 

Beautiful post. Please post here more often.

[kitekrazy]

I would add another option. For whatever reason, the FO took the trade deadline off. I am sure there will be talk of waiver deals for the rest of the month. But what about the manager. I would assume Robin or the FO will decide to end this after the season. But as I have posted a couple of times over the last few months, why wait?? Renteria would be a name the comes up when/if robin leaves. Why not test drive him now during a period where games will matter, at least to many of the opponents. Obviously, my suggestion would make no sense if the FO has come to the conclusion that Renteria would not be a candidate.

 

Unfortunately I doubt a new manager could pick his own staff. Another Sox retread and I done until ownership changes and that ownership makes changes. We are the Detroit Lions of MLB.

 

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Unfortunately I doubt a new manager could pick his own staff. Another Sox retread and I done until ownership changes and that ownership makes changes. We are the Detroit Lions of MLB.

It's to that point for me. They have one more off-season to make some changes or I'll say f*** em til there's some.

I think they're the Oakland Raiders from the mid-2000s

Edited August 4, 2016 by SouthSideSale