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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:07 PM)
You obviously take offense to anything resembling discussion about the fan base. I understand that, as I see people bothered by it all of the time. What it does not change is the truth. The White Sox would not be signing a third rate ballpark naming rights deal if the Sox ownership and management had created a sustainable winning product over the years that would have attracted more fans to the ballpark. They have failed in that capacity to do so, evidenced by the fact the team has only been to the postseason twice in the past 15 years, and therefore ownership and management are reaping what they sow with this "third rate ballpark naming rights deal". I know it hurts your feelings, but it is the honest to god truth. What I have never done is make a judgement of what the fans should or should not do. All of that is the manifestation of someone who is working harder than most at being offended.

Fixed

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:17 PM)
They're unwilling to tolerate it from the players, but they're perfectly ok with it from management as long as they make an enthusiastic presentation at the end of the year explaining why it wasn't their fault.

I would be one of the first to say in the real world results trump effort. We like to tell our kids that they go hand in hand, and often they do. Sometimes they do not. They are trying to not be mediocre. They haven't done a good job of it. Moving on from KW and RH makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't appear like that is in the cards at least for another year.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:25 PM)
I would be one of the first to say in the real world results trump effort. We like to tell our kids that they go hand in hand, and often they do. Sometimes they do not. They are trying to not be mediocre. They haven't done a good job of it. Moving on from KW and RH makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't appear like that is in the cards at least for another year.

They signed Jimmy Rollins to be the opening day starting shortstop this year. They signed Austin Jackson to be the starting centerfielder. They signed the two-headed Navarro/Avila monster to be the catching tandem. Avi Garcia has been a starting player, replacing the great Adam LaRoche. They doubled down this summer by acquiring 34 year-old James Shields to be in the starting rotation for the remainder of this year and now for the next two years.

 

Now what was that you were saying about the team "trying not to be mediocre"?

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:25 PM)
I would be one of the first to say in the real world results trump effort. We like to tell our kids that they go hand in hand, and often they do. Sometimes they do not. They are trying to not be mediocre. They haven't done a good job of it. Moving on from KW and RH makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't appear like that is in the cards at least for another year.

They are trying to do so up to a given point. They have a line - having their buddies in the front office, turning a consistent profit - that they will not cross.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:39 PM)
The White Sox have made a ton of roster moves for years now. They are not content. Again, those moves haven't resulted in good results, but they haven't been content.

 

They have made trades and free agent signings but other than Abreu and even Robertson most have been for 2nd tier players. Now some of that can be attributed to the fact that their minor league talent has been awful so they had few tradeable commodities to make big moves. But how much did they invest in their farm system since the WS year. Who have they fired over the last 10 years. KW, Buddy Bell, Ventura Hahn???. Even Ozzie left on his own.

 

Overall, JR has pretty much sat back and let the team coast along.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:32 PM)
They signed Jimmy Rollins to be the opening day starting shortstop this year. They signed Austin Jackson to be the starting centerfielder. They signed the two-headed Navarro/Avila monster to be the catching tandem. Avi Garcia has been a starting player, replacing the great Adam LaRoche. They doubled down this summer by acquiring 34 year-old James Shields to be in the starting rotation for the remainder of this year and now for the next two years.

 

Now what was that you were saying about the team "trying not to be mediocre"?

Unfortunately HOFers weren't available. Jimmy Rollins replaced Alexei Ramirez. How is he doing? They wanted someone short term because Anderson was coming. Austin Jackson was fine in CF. Navarro/Avila replaced Tyler Flowers/Soto. Avi Garcia was supposed to be a bench player, LaRoche retired unexpectedly. Shields was trying to beat the pitching market. If Erik Johnson had shown anything, they don't make that trade. All of those moves could be considered upgrades at the time they were made.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:24 PM)
Fixed

 

Eh, not really. The numbers don't actually back that up. Even when the franchise was at its absolute peak for attendance, they finished 9th in attendance in 2006. For 2008, when they had their 2nd playoff appearance in 4 years, along with a World Series title, they ranked 16th. The season after those appearances they still ranked 16th.

 

Realistically, even if your scenario had happened, they still lag the best franchises out there in terms of fan turn out. History proves that out.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:37 PM)
They are trying to do so up to a given point. They have a line - having their buddies in the front office, turning a consistent profit - that they will not cross.

Yet a good portion of Soxtalk wants them to be worse than mediocre and get rid of all of their best players, and claim Rick Hahn really has nothing much to do with the personnel decisions unless they are good ones.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 11:25 AM)
The Sox are getting $6.4 million out of this. THAT is what is important here. The name is secondary.

Is embarrassment worth less than half of John Danks' 2016 salary?

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 12:25 PM)
I would be one of the first to say in the real world results trump effort. We like to tell our kids that they go hand in hand, and often they do. Sometimes they do not. They are trying to not be mediocre. They haven't done a good job of it. Moving on from KW and RH makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't appear like that is in the cards at least for another year.

That said, the reason we tell that to our kids is, it is hard to actually have success without effort. Effort does not guarantee success, but it certainly is one key ingredient to it.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 11:41 AM)
Just because they aren't doing it the way YOU want it done is irrelevant. They have made a ton of moves the last few years, again, they just haven't worked out. They know there is a problem, and are trying to fix it. It just isn't the way that most people want to see. But they are trying.

 

I honestly appreciate the effort (I'm not being sarcastic) as I've said I've never doubted for a minute the desire to win from JR on down.

 

Baseball though is a results business...the results have been bad for six of the last nine years, soon to be seven out of ten. Radical changes are needed starting with the removal of people on the baseball side of the front office who simply aren't very good at their jobs based on the bottom line...wins and losses.

 

Mark

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QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 11:47 AM)
I just have no clue why you keep defending the way this franchise is run.

 

Maybe he has a relative working for them? :)

 

Just kidding...(I think!)

 

I do think I'd like to arrange a legit interview with him for the site. Seriously. I disagree with his views but he has been consistent and I'd like to explore the reasoning behind his beliefs. I think it would make for a good one and interesting to a lot of people.

 

Mark

Edited by Lip Man 1

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:52 PM)
That said, the reason we tell that to our kids is, it is hard to actually have success without effort. Effort does not guarantee success, but it certainly is one key ingredient to it.

I agree, and I would imagine everyone wants their children to give max effort because it should translate in their best result. The problem is Hahn and KW best effort hasn't been good enough recently. Either that has to change or the guys making the effort has to change.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 03:03 PM)
I agree, and I would imagine everyone wants their children to give max effort because it should translate in their best result. The problem is Hahn and KW best effort hasn't been good enough recently. Either that has to change or the guys making the effort has to change.

Complete house cleaning JR on down is needed in the worst way right now.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 01:07 PM)
You obviously take offense to anything resembling discussion about the fan base. I understand that, as I see people bothered by it all of the time. What it does not change is the truth. The White Sox would not be signing a third rate ballpark naming rights deal if the Sox fan base was more loyal. I know it hurts your feelings, but it is the honest to god truth. What I have never done is make a judgement of what the fans should or should not do. All of that is the manifestation of someone who is working harder than most at being offended.

 

Loyalty is a two way street of course and as we discussed my opinion is that sports fans are under no obligation to support a bad product. No different from any other type of business and sports today is now a billion dollar business. You disagree with that and have made that clear consistently.

 

Again I disagree with you but I respect your consistency.

 

If the Sox want an average of say 2.5 million fans a year...fine, win 90 games three seasons in a row and they'll get that. Not have a winning season at least in six out of nine years...well that's a tough sell for anybody.

Mark

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 02:39 PM)
Unfortunately HOFers weren't available. Jimmy Rollins replaced Alexei Ramirez. How is he doing? They wanted someone short term because Anderson was coming. Austin Jackson was fine in CF. Navarro/Avila replaced Tyler Flowers/Soto. Avi Garcia was supposed to be a bench player, LaRoche retired unexpectedly. Shields was trying to beat the pitching market. If Erik Johnson had shown anything, they don't make that trade. All of those moves could be considered upgrades at the time they were made.

Upgrades from very bad to...just bad? Again, addressing your earlier point about the team is "trying not to be mediocre". If these are the "upgrades" they chose to make, when better upgrades were available, then I don't see how your stance on this mediocre business holds water.

 

And oh, one more point on the so-called upgrades. The Sox came in last in offense last year, and the team that you say is trying not to be mediocre brought in the likes of Rollins, Jackson, Navarro/Avila, and Lawrie to address that gaping problem. And they were all ready and set to go with LaRoche again, too. So now that I think about it, you might be right. They weren't trying to be mediocre. They really weren't trying at all, now, were they.

Edited by Thad Bosley

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 03:09 PM)
Loyalty is a two way street of course and as we discussed my opinion is that sports fans are under no obligation to support a bad product. No different from any other type of business and sports today is now a billion dollar business. You disagree with that and have made that clear consistently.

 

Again I disagree with you but I respect your consistency.

 

If the Sox want an average of say 2.5 million fans a year...fine, win 90 games three seasons in a row and they'll get that. Not have a winning season at least in six out of nine years...well that's a tough sell for anybody.

Mark

 

They did win 90 2 years in a row including a World Series the next year, attendance dropped. They made the playoffs the next year, the attendance dropped, 3 years later, spent most of the season in first place, the attendance dropped. There is no rhyme or reason here. We can move the bar for what will make White Sox fans show up to games like Bears, Cubs, Bulls fans do no matter what the state of their team. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Blackhawks once their run ends and they are just a meddling mediocre team for a while. I would imagine they have built up enough good faith that attendance won't change much. But the White Sox are the only major professional sports team in Chicago who wouldn't draw big in first place. That's fine, but there are consequences. The thought of some billionaire coming in on his white horse to buy the team from JR and starting to spend crazily thus setting attendance records is fantasy. Sox fans won't go until they win 90 games 3 years in a row? It will probably be a long time until they win 90 games 3 years in a row.

 

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 03:13 PM)
Upgrades from very bad to...just bad? Again, addressing your earlier point about the team is "trying not to be mediocre". If these are the "upgrades" they chose to make, when better upgrades were available, then I don't see how you can stand behind this mediocre statement you made.

What were the better upgrades available, and don't say Cespedes because they tried.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 03:20 PM)
What were the better upgrades available, and don't say Cespedes because they tried.

They offered Cespedes 5/$150 and he turned it down for less money per year and fewer years?

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 03:13 PM)
Upgrades from very bad to...just bad? Again, addressing your earlier point about the team is "trying not to be mediocre". If these are the "upgrades" they chose to make, when better upgrades were available, then I don't see how your stance on this mediocre business holds water.

 

And oh, one more point on the so-called upgrades. The Sox came in last in offense last year, and the team that you say is trying not to be mediocre brought in the likes of Rollins, Jackson, Navarro/Avila, and Lawrie to address that gaping problem. And they were all ready and set to go with LaRoche again, too. So now that I think about it, you might be right. They weren't trying to be mediocre. They really weren't trying at all, now, were they.

 

You know, this is just an incredibly condescending post for really no reason. DA has actually given you exactly what you wanted him to say in this thread, the Sox brass has not been successful, their followthrough has sucked, and the front office should be replaced. But you cant even take that win and walk away, you just want to keep prodding for no reason, and change it to "they are trying to be mediocre" or "they arent trying at all."

 

Stop Thad, your thoughts are all well known. We know you hate the front office and owner. Its enough at this point.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 03:25 PM)
They offered Cespedes 5/$150 and he turned it down for less money per year and fewer years?

If they offered Cespedes that contract and he signed it, you would have ripped the signing. You have to be realistic.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 03:25 PM)
They offered Cespedes 5/$150 and he turned it down for less money per year and fewer years?

 

nobody knows what was offered, nobody can verify anything. It didnt happen, all we know is they tried and failed. The end

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QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 12:35 PM)
Can anyone name a stadium name that is actually good?

 

I never had a problem with United Center and still think it sounds good.

 

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 25, 2016 -> 03:09 PM)
Loyalty is a two way street of course and as we discussed my opinion is that sports fans are under no obligation to support a bad product. No different from any other type of business and sports today is now a billion dollar business. You disagree with that and have made that clear consistently.

 

Again I disagree with you but I respect your consistency.

 

If the Sox want an average of say 2.5 million fans a year...fine, win 90 games three seasons in a row and they'll get that. Not have a winning season at least in six out of nine years...well that's a tough sell for anybody.

Mark

 

That is where you are wrong. These teams do exist. The Sox are just not one of them.

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