Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[Hatchetman]

Stony was just on WSCR. He essentially said the Sox need to evaluate their scouting and player development people and figure out where the problem lies and rectify it. Assuming the Sox were to actually conduct a rigorous evaluation, I think waiting until after that process is done to make any major personnel moves would be the right thing to do. So, knowing the Sox they will trade Sale right around November 5th.

[Rowand44]

Maybe they learned their lesson they can really totally shop at Walmart.

 

I just don't understand how anyone can think these guys could be better at projecting minor leaguers than major leaguers. That's harder for anyone. If you think the guys they want to throw millions at can't play, why would guys they get for Sale or Quintana be able to play? Why wouldn't they be Avi or Leury Garcia? Or Jon Adkins, the guy they got for Ray Durham, or Matt Davidson? It's not like they have struck it rich when they did trade for prospects.

As I've said before, I have no clue if they're going to do a rebuild right, no idea if they'll bring in the right prospects to do this correctly. I do however know that they can't put together a roster around Sale and Quintana to make the playoffs. 5 years is a lot of freaking time to have gotten that right, they haven't done that and I'll absolutely be pissed off if they go about it in the same way for year 6 because hey, maybe they'll get lucky.

[Dick Allen]

Because you bring back 8+ of them, and you stop trading away the guys you currently have, and you receive higher draft slots.

 

Force the numbers to have some shot at overwhelming the poor scouting.

Even the supposed genius organizations pick some clunkers high in the draft. This sets up being really bad a really long time.

 

I am happy they want at least some sort of immediate major league help for Sale or Quintana at this point. That probably shows their hand a bit as well. No total rebuild. Maybe trade a pitcher or 2 for some hitters.

 

I do think their minor league staff and maybe a few scouts are going to change. I am sure Robin is gone. I would imagine most of the coaching staff will be gone as well.

[Dick Allen]

As I've said before, I have no clue if they're going to do a rebuild right, no idea if they'll bring in the right prospects to do this correctly. I do however know that they can't put together a roster around Sale and Quintana to make the playoffs. 5 years is a lot of freaking time to have gotten that right, they haven't done that and I'll absolutely be pissed off if they go about it in the same way for year 6 because hey, maybe they'll get lucky.

The problem with a rebuild is you can actually do it "right", but still not be successful. It works out for some teams, and those teams get incredibly lucky. There was nothing in Theo's plan that said sign a cheap free agent starter. Trade him for a future Cy Young winner. It was an astute pick up, but it was incredibly lucky. He got Bryant when the Astros took Appel. He got Rizzo for Cashner, got his buddy canned, then hired him.

 

Those were genius moves for him, but lucky. If they don't have those 3, they are still rebuilding.

[Thad Bosley]

And still the only baseball championship that either side of town has witnessed during our lifetime is the one following an offseason of patching obvious holes at catcher, second base, right field, fifth starter, and bullpen with mid-tier free agents and trades. Sound familiar?

 

I think this whole discussion goes back to how far away one thinks this roster is from being a contender. I happen to think filling the obvious holes in the 25-man roster with productive players will result in a competitive team. As much as people keep saying it, last offseason was not "all in." If anything, that was a "stand pat" approach. What was their most expensive signing? Austin Jackson for 1 year at $5MM? I'm advocating signing 4 guys that exceed that type of contract but also don't reach the level of a Cespedes or Encarnacion - more in line with the 2014/2015 offseason approach because I believe the Sox have less holes to fill now than they did in 2014.

The "throw anything against the wall and hope it'll stick" approach? Sure, it sounds familiar. It's been happening for quite some time with Williams and Hahn at the helm. Great way to build a team capable of sustainable winning, eh?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

The "throw anything against the wall and hope it'll stick" approach? Sure, it sounds familiar. It's been happening for quite some time with Williams and Hahn at the helm. Great way to build a team capable of sustainable winning, eh?

I did not agree with signing Rollins, Latos, and Avila/Navarro this past offseason. Would have much preferred signing Desmond and Fowler to 3 year deals and someone like Fister to a 1 or 2 year deal while sticking with Flowers for another year once Wieters accepted the QO. I would still give Fowler a 3 year contract this offseason but it's even harder now because they likely won't have a protected 1st pick or a comp pick for losing shark. I think that's where the front office blew it by not truly going all in last offseason. I'd still like to see them go for it this offseason by signing the before mentioned vets that have shown the ability to succeed in the AL and are still producing this year at a much higher level than our current options at C, CF, #5 SP, etc. Still have to be strategic in these signings can't just willy nilly sign whoever is left at the end of the offseason. But again this is tied to payroll constraints so JR needs to open the checkbook a bit wider than he did last offseason if wants the "all in" approach.

[Balta1701]

Even the supposed genius organizations pick some clunkers high in the draft. This sets up being really bad a really long time.

 

I am happy they want at least some sort of immediate major league help for Sale or Quintana at this point. That probably shows their hand a bit as well. No total rebuild. Maybe trade a pitcher or 2 for some hitters.

 

I do think their minor league staff and maybe a few scouts are going to change. I am sure Robin is gone. I would imagine most of the coaching staff will be gone as well.

Let's point out though - "picking some clunkers high in the draft" does not destroy a franchise these days. The example continues being the Astros. 3 #1 picks, completely blew 2 of them, still a legit playoff contender with a lineup that should only get better next year.

 

That took 5 years, and they started from a point of having much less to trade away than the White Sox currently have.

[Dick Allen]

Let's point out though - "picking some clunkers high in the draft" does not destroy a franchise these days. The example continues being the Astros. 3 #1 picks, completely blew 2 of them, still a legit playoff contender with a lineup that should only get better next year.

 

That took 5 years, and they started from a point of having much less to trade away than the White Sox currently have.

Then why play for the high picks? Once Houston makes it's first selection, the rest of the draft, the Sox would have had the better picks correct? I would much rather pick 18th than first in the second round.

[Bob Sacamano]

I did not agree with signing Rollins, Latos, and Avila/Navarro this past offseason. Would have much preferred signing Desmond and Fowler to 3 year deals and someone like Fister to a 1 or 2 year deal while sticking with Flowers for another year once Wieters accepted the QO. I would still give Fowler a 3 year contract this offseason but it's even harder now because they likely won't have a protected 1st pick or a comp pick for losing shark. I think that's where the front office blew it by not truly going all in last offseason. I'd still like to see them go for it this offseason by signing the before mentioned vets that have shown the ability to succeed in the AL and are still producing this year at a much higher level than our current options at C, CF, #5 SP, etc. Still have to be strategic in these signings can't just willy nilly sign whoever is left at the end of the offseason. But again this is tied to payroll constraints so JR needs to open the checkbook a bit wider than he did last offseason if wants the "all in" approach.

 

Man if we signed two free agents with QOs attached, we wouldn't have Burdi or Hansen. That would suck.

Edited September 6, 2016 by soxfan2014

[Balta1701]

Then why play for the high picks? Once Houston makes it's first selection, the rest of the draft, the Sox would have had the better picks correct? I would much rather pick 18th than first in the second round.

Well, the White Sox's first round pick would be better than Houston's second round pick, but Houston's second round pick would still be at the top of the 2nd round, so they'd be drafting 40th while the White Sox would be drafting 58. And again, that's if your team is dumb enough to screw up the top pick, which obviously is a possibility we can't ignore with this franchise.

 

Plus, at least under the current system that also frees up additional funds to be used on international signings or moved around the draft elsewhere.

 

Right now the White Sox need everyone to succeed for them to have a chance. They lost 2 relievers this year and Kenny declared it the end of the world. They stretch themselves so thin that no one can afford to underperform in the slightest. They combine that with poor scouting, so that it is likely players will underperform. The only way they're going to be able to succeed given the poor scouting is to throw so many players at it that eventually the odds simply overwhelm the poor organizational performance by a lot.

 

(or they could fix the complete failures, but hey, Rick's a nice guy so we can't do that).

[captain54]

And still the only baseball championship that either side of town has witnessed during our lifetime is the one following an offseason of patching obvious holes at catcher, second base, right field, fifth starter, and bullpen with mid-tier free agents and trades. Sound familiar?

 

Yes, the sound of a decade and counting of failure following the magical season sounds familiar..

 

You could equally argue that if in fact, the Sox held the key to the promised land, and Kenny Blowhard has the magic touch with slapping Spackle and having the gonads to dump a key cog in the 05 team, your center fielder for Thome, signing your Adam Dunns, your Sharks, your Griffey's, and your Manny Ramirez's…how have they not been able to duplicate for such a long period? Not only not duplicate, but run the table in the opposite direction? the crappy small market, low budget Oakland A's have been to the playoffs 3 times in the last 5 yrs…it's embarrassing..

 

In all your conjectures and scenarios, you still have no answers to what happens with Shields and his $11/M, or how in God's name this bullpen is gonna get fixed… just saying that it should be dynamite because Petricka and Putnam are back and Burdi and some other Joe Blow no name failed starter are gonna rock the house .. not very convincing…

 

The biggest hole of all in your argument, dude….is that JR is gonna all of sudden magically add payroll.. not gonna happen...

Edited September 6, 2016 by captain54

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

The biggest hole of all in your argument, dude….is that JR is gonna all of sudden magically add payroll.. not gonna happen...

How do you know this?

Edited September 6, 2016 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[captain54]

How do you know this?

 

well, let's put it this way.. the kind of payroll that is required to acquire anyone of any impact…. not impossible but unlikely..

[caulfield12]

Carlos Quentin

Jose Quintana

Sergio Santos

Addison Reed

Adam Eaton

Chris Carter

Bobby Jenks

Alejandro DeAza

John Danks

Gavin Floyd

Alexei Ramirez

Jose Abreu

Could add success with Humber for one year

Hector Santiago

 

The White Sox have been pretty successful in the past scouting players with no or less than one full year of big league experience. To that, you can add Sale and Anderson, too.

Whoever was responsible for the success of all those decisions should get promoted...everyone else has until July, 2017 to get their act in gear.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

well, let's put it this way.. the kind of payroll that is required to acquire anyone of any impact…. not impossible but unlikely..

What's your definition of "anyone of any impact"?

[caulfield12]

What's your definition of "anyone of any impact"?

 

Matt Latos made a huge impact for four starts...

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Matt Latos made a huge impact for four starts...

I'd be curious to see what his definition is. Did Indians fans think adding Napoli (age 34) and Davis (age 35) would add "anything of impact" coming into this season? Did Rangers fans think Ian Desmomd (the guy that no one else wanted) would have this type of impact (ie. outproducing Gordon, Upton, and Cespedes)?

[captain54]

What's your definition of "anyone of any impact"?

 

Players that can, according to your standard, magically transform the Sox into "a team that can absolutely compete for a play off spot"

 

And I don't mean jumping over 5 or 6 teams and 5 or 6 back of WC 2 for the duration of the year.

 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Players that can, according to your standard, magically transform the Sox into "a team that can absolutely compete for a play off spot"

 

And I don't mean jumping over 5 or 6 teams and 5 or 6 back of WC 2 for the duration of the year.

So you think replacing Navarro/Avila with Wieters, Schuck with Fowler, Shields/Danks/Ranuado with Volquez, Avi/Morneau with Moreland, and Albers/Kahnle/Ynoa with Burdi/Putnam/Petricka will have little to no impact on the number of wins next season? That's an interesting thought. I happen to think that those additions could result in as many as 10 additional wins and a total in the upper 80s, which absolutely positions them to be a playoff contender. Sure I will admit that a lot has to go right but if it doesn't then tear it down in July and sell off anything of value not in the mid-long term plan. I feel it's a very prudent approach.

[Thad Bosley]

I did not agree with signing Rollins, Latos, and Avila/Navarro this past offseason. Would have much preferred signing Desmond and Fowler to 3 year deals and someone like Fister to a 1 or 2 year deal while sticking with Flowers for another year once Wieters accepted the QO. I would still give Fowler a 3 year contract this offseason but it's even harder now because they likely won't have a protected 1st pick or a comp pick for losing shark. I think that's where the front office blew it by not truly going all in last offseason. I'd still like to see them go for it this offseason by signing the before mentioned vets that have shown the ability to succeed in the AL and are still producing this year at a much higher level than our current options at C, CF, #5 SP, etc. Still have to be strategic in these signings can't just willy nilly sign whoever is left at the end of the offseason. But again this is tied to payroll constraints so JR needs to open the checkbook a bit wider than he did last offseason if wants the "all in" approach.

That's still not going to be near enough. Cleveland and Detroit are #3 & 4, respectively, in league offense this season, while the Sox remain towards the bottom at #12. You are adding Wieters as an upgrade at catcher. Ok, but his sparkling .683 OPS isn't going to put much of a dent in reducing that gap between the Sox and their two main division rivals on offense. Who else are you bringing in that will close that gap and help stifle those who believe a rebuild is in order? Moreland? Still coming up a bit short there, I'm afraid.

 

Similarly, with Cleveland having superior pitching overall to that of the Sox, and Detroit arguably a notch or two higher, how does Volquez and his 1.47 WHIP improve our chances to compete with those two teams? Remember, it's not about upgrading from the garbage we saw this year. It's about upgrading to a point that puts us in a position to win the division and/or compete for a wildcard. I'm afraid the addition of Volquez and return of Petricka and Putnam doesn't get us close to those other two teams, either.

 

In other words, you are far overrating the current roster, and underestimating the extent to which the quantity and quality of upgrades to the team would need to be for the Sox to compete for the postseason next year.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

That's still not going to be near enough. Cleveland and Detroit are #3 & 4, respectively, in league offense this season, while the Sox remain towards the bottom at #12. You are adding Wieters as an upgrade at catcher. Ok, but his sparkling .683 OPS isn't going to put much of a dent in reducing that gap between the Sox and their two main division rivals on offense. Who else are you bringing in that will close that gap and help stifle those who believe a rebuild is in order? Moreland? Still coming up a bit short there, I'm afraid.

 

Similarly, with Cleveland having superior pitching overall to that of the Sox, and Detroit arguably a notch or two higher, how does Volquez and his 1.47 WHIP improve our chances to compete with those two teams? Remember, it's not about upgrading from the garbage we saw this year. It's about upgrading to a point that puts us in a position to win the division and/or compete for a wildcard. I'm afraid the addition of Volquez and return of Petricka and Putnam doesn't get us close to those other two teams, either.

 

In other words, you are far overrating the current roster, and underestimating the extent to which the quantity and quality of upgrades to the team would need to be for the Sox to compete for the postseason next year.

See post #270 in this thread

 

Also much of the upgrade at catcher with Wieters is primarily due to his defense not his offense as you continue to suggest.

Edited September 6, 2016 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[Dick Allen]

I was just at a season ticket holder q& a with RH. They are going to be rebuilding boys

 

Could be a reason Fulmer and Burdick are taking the rest of the season off.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Bob Sacamano]

I was just at a season ticket holder q& a with RH. They are going to be rebuilding boys

 

Could be a reason Fulmer and Burdick are taking the rest of the season off.

 

 

They came out and said they are or is it just your own opinion based on whatever it is they said?

[Dick Allen]

They came out and said they are or is it just your own opinion based on whatever it is they said?

He said it without saying it. I am 100% certain. Mentioned pivot poins. Said there was one in 2007 and after 2012 and they got those wrong. Said if they did not rebuild after this year, with their contract situations, would have to after next. It I S going to happen.

 

Brooks was there as well as said the g rate deal is worth a lot more than media reports. The public only sees a portion of th agreement. Said there is going to be an event next year with a bunch of bands g rate is subsidizing ticket prices

Edited September 7, 2016 by Dick Allen

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

He said it without saying it. I am 100% certain. Mentioned pivot poins. Said there was one in 2007 and after 2012 and they got those wrong. Said if they did not rebuild after this year, with their contract situations, would have to after next. It I S going to happen.

I was hoping they'd give it one more crack before starting the rebuild but I guess everyone here gets what they want now. Should see a surge in attendance the next few years since this is what everyone wants to see. Yippee another 5 years of sub .500 baseball