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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:10 PM)
Are you sure that everyone in the clubhouse likes him? Would you like him causing a media sh*tstorm for your team and destroying your jersey with scissors?

 

I doubt they gave a s*** about their jerseys. He's clearly a bit of a hothead, but his performance on the field far outweighs a few temper tantrums.

 

Hell just a few weeks ago Rodon said (I am paraphrasing)..the Sox would be complete idiots to trade away Chris. I have learned a ton from him and he is one of the best pitchers in baseball.

 

I obviously wouldn't expect one of his understudies to say he's a complete asshat and I hope he's traded, but I think the media took an easy story to run with and did just that. Chris is fine clubhouse guy that just wants to win.

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:14 PM)
It's not like they want to throw him out. It's just if a team wants to deal with the Sox for one of our two lefties, they would rather deal Sale.

 

I don't argue with this at all. Just arguing that he is not a "clubhouse cancer".

 

I think trading Sale over Q is the right move if you're just moving one for multiple reasons. I would, however, probably move both if you move one.

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:15 PM)
I doubt they gave a s*** about their jerseys. He's clearly a bit of a hothead, but his performance on the field far outweighs a few temper tantrums.

 

Hell just a few weeks ago Rodon said (I am paraphrasing)..the Sox would be complete idiots to trade away Chris. I have learned a ton from him and he is one of the best pitchers in baseball.

 

I obviously wouldn't expect one of his understudies to say he's a complete asshat and I hope he's traded, but I think the media took an easy story to run with and did just that. Chris is fine clubhouse guy that just wants to win.

 

Yeah, Chris is a fine clubhouse guy until his sensibilities are offended, and then he throws a temper-tantrum and embarrasses the organization. If he weren't exceptionally good at what he does, he would've been shown the door earlier this year.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 02:57 PM)
No, he's one of the guys that you sign to an extension ASAP and build around.

 

I kind of doubt that Rodon is the extending type of guy.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 02:29 PM)
I kind of doubt that Rodon is the extending type of guy.

Not with his agent but it may become common for pitchers to re-sign early to protect themselves in case of injury.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:29 PM)
I kind of doubt that Rodon is the extending type of guy.

Totally agreed, but years of control:

Sale: 3

Abreu:3

Quintana: 4

Rodon: 5

Eaton: 5

 

So, if someone gives you a great deal for Eaton or Rodon, you consider moving them, but only for a deal that makes you significantly better 3 yearas down the road. There is no good reason why those 2 can't be part of your next competitive team if you do the deals correctly for the lefty(lefties), turn Frazier into something useful, turn Cabrera and Robertson into monetary savings, and then go for the FA market once you have built a solid, non-pathetic foundation.

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I cant see Frazier going anywhere. I think the org (including Hawk) loves him so much that its more likely Frazier eventually gets a contract offer than getting traded.

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QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:43 PM)
Not with his agent but it may become common for pitchers to re-sign early to protect themselves in case of injury.

 

Even if Rodon has Tommy John surgery tomorrow, he still has years of pitching ahead of him.

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QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:43 PM)
Not with his agent but it may become common for pitchers to re-sign early to protect themselves in case of injury.

 

That was my thinking. Many pitchers will take a guaranteed $50M over a possible $150M several years down the road.

 

QUOTE (shipps @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:55 PM)
I cant see Frazier going anywhere. I think the org (including Hawk) loves him so much that its more likely Frazier eventually gets a contract offer than getting traded.

 

I tend to agree. Frazier would be a nice fit for this team for the next four or so years. If the Sox ever develop a halfway decent 3B again, Frazier can move to 1B.

 

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QUOTE (shipps @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:55 PM)
I cant see Frazier going anywhere. I think the org (including Hawk) loves him so much that its more likely Frazier eventually gets a contract offer than getting traded.

 

I think a Frazier extension makes a lot of sense.

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 01:17 PM)
Yeah, Chris is a fine clubhouse guy until his sensibilities are offended, and then he throws a temper-tantrum and embarrasses the organization. If he weren't exceptionally good at what he does, he would've been shown the door earlier this year.

I've heard from a very reliable source that Sale is not that great of a guy, in more ways than one.

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QUOTE (hi8is @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 04:33 PM)
I've heard from a very reliable source that Sale is not that great of a guy, in more ways than one.

 

I had just assumed that he couldn't control his temper, but I'm not really surprised by that. A guy who cursed out his GM probably doesn't treat non-authority figures all that well, either.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 08:13 PM)
I had just assumed that he couldn't control his temper, but I'm not really surprised by that. A guy who cursed out his GM probably doesn't treat non-authority figures all that well, either.

 

For sure. Other than the ones we know about, supposedly he has been sent home other times as well. Abbatacola also mentioned earlier that his source said Sale's part of the reason Robin didn't really want to continue.

Edited by soxfan2014

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 09:23 PM)
For sure. Other than the ones we know about, supposedly he has been sent home other times as well. Abbatacola also mentioned earlier that his source said Sale's part of the reason Robin didn't really want to continue.

 

Sale will be back. There is no way the Sox get what they will want for him especially w Boston probably out of the running. Maybe the Yankees or washington could put a package together but I think unless Hahn drops his demands , Sale will be back.

Q I think is very tradeable.

 

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After re-reading the Hahn quotes today, definitely seems like they are going the rebuilding path. Hate that Hahn gets to make these deals after his horrible tenure

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QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 09:19 PM)
After re-reading the Hahn quotes today, definitely seems like they are going the rebuilding path. Hate that Hahn gets to make these deals after his horrible tenure

Hopefully Hahn gets his way. Let him do his thing. I'm more confident in a rebuild than letting him spend and sign free agent busts.

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QUOTE (shipps @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:55 PM)
I cant see Frazier going anywhere. I think the org (including Hawk) loves him so much that its more likely Frazier eventually gets a contract offer than getting traded.

 

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 04:01 PM)
That was my thinking. Many pitchers will take a guaranteed $50M over a possible $150M several years down the road.

 

I tend to agree. Frazier would be a nice fit for this team for the next four or so years. If the Sox ever develop a halfway decent 3B again, Frazier can move to 1B.

 

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 04:01 PM)
I think a Frazier extension makes a lot of sense.

I'd like to argue this morning that a Frazier extension is a poor idea for the White Sox. Todd Frazier is a guy who I think is likely to be among the "fast dropoff" players. He is a guy with one strong plus tool - power. He has poor plate discipline overall - a strikeout rate above 20% and a walk rate only 8%, for his career. That means he's a guy who swings a lot, makes limited contact, but gets value when he makes contact because the ball goes far.

 

In general, these are guys who do not age well. I think generally speaking statistics bears this out - Fraziers skill set is one that sees pretty rapid dropoffs sometime in the early to mid 30's. (a couple links: Link1, link2; link3)

 

I believe we actually have seen some of this already. Take a look at his last 1.5 seasons of baseball - his power is still there, but his K rate shot up this year and the amount of weak contact he made also went up. If you convinced yourself you were getting an all star 3b this year, either you're name is Rick Hahn and you're severely overpaid or you were otherwise quite disappointed. These are what you see drop off in guys like him - in order to keep hitting the ball out of the park he has to put more into each swing, but that exposes him more to striking out, and eventually if the power tool weakens at all or his eye weakens at all, he can hit a cliff where his HR total drops off to the 20s and suddenly he's putting up Adam LaRoche numbers.

 

He could darn well still have several good years in him, this is only speaking in terms of averages and there are always guys who break the trends, but an extension for Frazier is betting on him being a guy who breaks the trend. If you're going to make that bet, you better have a team in the first year or two of that deal that is otherwise loaded, because the back couple years could have a serious dropoff hidden in there.

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 08:23 PM)
For sure. Other than the ones we know about, supposedly he has been sent home other times as well. Abbatacola also mentioned earlier that his source said Sale's part of the reason Robin didn't really want to continue.

 

If that's the case, then I imagine that Hahn will be shopping him hard this winter.

 

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 08:27 AM)
I'd like to argue this morning that a Frazier extension is a poor idea for the White Sox. Todd Frazier is a guy who I think is likely to be among the "fast dropoff" players. He is a guy with one strong plus tool - power. He has poor plate discipline overall - a strikeout rate above 20% and a walk rate only 8%, for his career. That means he's a guy who swings a lot, makes limited contact, but gets value when he makes contact because the ball goes far.

 

In general, these are guys who do not age well. I think generally speaking statistics bears this out - Fraziers skill set is one that sees pretty rapid dropoffs sometime in the early to mid 30's. (a couple links: Link1, link2)

 

I believe we actually have seen some of this already. Take a look at his last 1.5 seasons of baseball - his power is still there, but his K rate shot up this year and the amount of weak contact he made also went up. If you convinced yourself you were getting an all star 3b this year, either you're name is Rick Hahn and you're severely overpaid or you were otherwise quite disappointed. These are what you see drop off in guys like him - in order to keep hitting the ball out of the park he has to put more into each swing, but that exposes him more to striking out, and eventually if the power tool weakens at all or his eye weakens at all, he can hit a cliff where his HR total drops off to the 20s and suddenly he's putting up Adam LaRoche numbers.

 

He could darn well still have several good years in him, this is only speaking in terms of averages and there are always guys who break the trends, but an extension for Frazier is betting on him being a guy who breaks the trend. If you're going to make that bet, you better have a team in the first year or two of that deal that is otherwise loaded, because the back couple years could have a serious dropoff hidden in there.

 

You make a good point here, but Frazier is also a pretty nice 3B and we don't have anybody on the radar who can play that position at the ML level.

 

If the Sox give Frazier a four-year deal with a team option for a fifth year, and Frazier hits with power and plays a decent 3B for the first three of those years... I'd say that's not too bad. The key would be to give him the extension this winter, though, rather than waiting until he hits free agency the following year.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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Rick Hahn on the score said he sees disadvantage in announcing rebuild. I'm starting to bet on a rebuild. Makes sense. A team would be may be willing to offer a huge haul to pry a guy who is unavailable away.

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 08:52 AM)
Rick Hahn on the score said he sees disadvantage in announcing rebuild. I'm starting to bet on a rebuild. Makes sense. A team would be may be willing to offer a huge haul to pry a guy who is unavailable away.

 

I think they truly do not know what they are going to do for next year. Whatever way the wind blows their sails. They are thinking if there seems to be a couple players available that they can grab that will be impact players they will go the route of trying to compete but if those players dont pan out (choose not to sign here or trade falls threw) for whatever reason than its gonna be sell mode. But I do think they will venture into buy mode first and if it fails then go to sell.

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 08:52 AM)
Rick Hahn on the score said he sees disadvantage in announcing rebuild. I'm starting to bet on a rebuild. Makes sense. A team would be may be willing to offer a huge haul to pry a guy who is unavailable away.

Makes too much sense. Bad free agent market plus available star pitchers equals big returns.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 08:27 AM)
I'd like to argue this morning that a Frazier extension is a poor idea for the White Sox. Todd Frazier is a guy who I think is likely to be among the "fast dropoff" players. He is a guy with one strong plus tool - power. He has poor plate discipline overall - a strikeout rate above 20% and a walk rate only 8%, for his career. That means he's a guy who swings a lot, makes limited contact, but gets value when he makes contact because the ball goes far.

 

In general, these are guys who do not age well. I think generally speaking statistics bears this out - Fraziers skill set is one that sees pretty rapid dropoffs sometime in the early to mid 30's. (a couple links: Link1, link2; link3)

 

I believe we actually have seen some of this already. Take a look at his last 1.5 seasons of baseball - his power is still there, but his K rate shot up this year and the amount of weak contact he made also went up. If you convinced yourself you were getting an all star 3b this year, either you're name is Rick Hahn and you're severely overpaid or you were otherwise quite disappointed. These are what you see drop off in guys like him - in order to keep hitting the ball out of the park he has to put more into each swing, but that exposes him more to striking out, and eventually if the power tool weakens at all or his eye weakens at all, he can hit a cliff where his HR total drops off to the 20s and suddenly he's putting up Adam LaRoche numbers.

 

He could darn well still have several good years in him, this is only speaking in terms of averages and there are always guys who break the trends, but an extension for Frazier is betting on him being a guy who breaks the trend. If you're going to make that bet, you better have a team in the first year or two of that deal that is otherwise loaded, because the back couple years could have a serious dropoff hidden in there.

 

This might be the least surprising post in the history of Soxtalk.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 10:09 AM)
This might be the least surprising post in the history of Soxtalk.

anigif_enhanced-13902-1434050060-2_previ

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