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QUOTE (zisk @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:09 PM)
reason to wait until june for overhaul. NICK CASTELLANO

 

I think most agree that 2016 draft was best SOX draft in forever.

 

if N.C. has a 2017 draft nearly as strong , the farm system may not need

 

a major influent in talent . with spencer adams and erik hanson along with fulmer and burdi

 

the sox could trade Q or Sale for hitting and contend very quickly.

Nick Castellanos? He's on the Tigers. Do you mean Nick Hostelter or however it's spelled who's one of the minor league scouts?

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QUOTE (zisk @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:09 PM)
I think most agree that 2016 draft was best SOX draft in forever.

What? They've been in the organization for a few months, there's no way of knowing if it's our best draft class ever.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:08 PM)
1. He's an available warm body who can actually catch. This is an upgrade from where the White Sox currently are.

2. He has played 100+ games each of the past 4 years. This is a substantial upgrade from where Alex Avila has been the last 2 years.

3. He is generally thought as one of the better pitch framers in the game.

4. He had a really spectacular offensive season a few years ago and guys at the catcher's spot sometimes do take years to break out because of all the physical and mental demands.

5. He is at least a positive value catcher and the White Sox would need something from that position in order to compete.

Pitch framing and durability is great and all, but people would grow very tired of his horrible offense here.

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QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:13 PM)
Nick Castellanos? He's on the Tigers. Do you mean Nick Hostelter or however it's spelled who's one of the minor league scouts?

 

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 06:05 AM)
Polanco was the name...I knew a P was in there somewhere.

 

At any rate, they still don't have a SS unless Nick Gordon undergoes an amazing transformation.

 

Right. Polanco is their SS. He's a back end top 100 guy and they like him. If you think they need a SS more than SP, I don't know what to tell you, but clearly you're not up to speed with their needs.

 

I don't disagree that the Twins are unlikely to move Buxton/Sano/Berrios but again, its a team with interesting young offensive pieces that badly needs pitching. With an outsider now running the front office, perhaps he won't be as married to their prospects as the previous regime was. If they don't trade for controllable top of the rotation pitching, they're never going to get it.

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QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:22 PM)
What? They've been in the organization for a few months, there's no way of knowing if it's our best draft class ever.

Exactly. That's like analysts grading NFL drafts the day after it's over. Yes these guys started off really well, but we'll see their progress next spring and into the season.

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Hostetler-my bad.

 

he is now director of scouting and ran this years draft.

 

I think we should all look back 3-4 years ago when Courtney Hawkins, carlos sanchez and tyler saladino were

 

our top minor leaguers. the system now has some depth and another good draft could really go a long ways

s

toward sustained success without having to endure 2-4 more bad seasons.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 11:00 AM)
I think that you need to keep one of those guys. The Sox rotation would suck for a long time with Rodon being the only one who's been proven to get out ML hitters.

If we're rebuilding, I don't care. This free agent market sucks, so we need to maximize value now. If we can get what we want for both Sale and Quintana, then ship them out. This organization needs young impact prospects.

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QUOTE (zisk @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:20 PM)
Hostetler-my bad.

 

he is now director of scouting and ran this years draft.

 

I think we should all look back 3-4 years ago when Courtney Hawkins, carlos sanchez and tyler saladino were

 

our top minor leaguers. the system now has some depth and another good draft could really go a long ways

s

toward sustained success without having to endure 2-4 more bad seasons.

 

 

LDF?

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I like Brad Miller as a platoon partner for Anderson/Lawrie (technically also an option to play for Frazier/Abreu as well with Lawrie's ability to play 3rd). Lawrie seemingly has never lasted a full season and it wouldn't be a horrible idea to protect Anderson a bit against real tough right handed starters.

 

Does he have much value?

 

How bad is his defense? It seems it was initially league average in the middle infield but has graded poorly since.

 

Not to mention the guy has spent his career hitting in pitcher's parks.

Edited by GREEDY

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QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:23 PM)
Pitch framing and durability is great and all, but people would grow very tired of his horrible offense here.

Which is a great illustration of why the only correct option for this team is rebuilding. The FA market will not fix this mess unless we win the lottery 3-4 times and find guys who dramatically overproduce their contracts. Otherwise, we are constantly trying to patch positions with guys who are "good enough" and then trying to acquire one big name player to overcome the fact that 4-5 positions in the lineup and a large chunk of the rotation and bullpen are filled with guys who are barely good enough. That's the "Rick Hahn Special" that we saw starting with Keppinger - "This guy is better than the complete vacant gap we have here and therefore that's a major upgrade". We've seen how well this works over and over and over again over the past 4 seasons. Either the big name isn't quite as big as we thought, or the guy who was supposed to be barely good enough does slightly worse and rapidly crosses over to terrible. Or both.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:54 PM)
Which is a great illustration of why the only correct option for this team is rebuilding. The FA market will not fix this mess unless we win the lottery 3-4 times and find guys who dramatically overproduce their contracts. Otherwise, we are constantly trying to patch positions with guys who are "good enough" and then trying to acquire one big name player to overcome the fact that 4-5 positions in the lineup and a large chunk of the rotation and bullpen are filled with guys who are barely good enough. That's the "Rick Hahn Special" that we saw starting with Keppinger - "This guy is better than the complete vacant gap we have here and therefore that's a major upgrade". We've seen how well this works over and over and over again over the past 4 seasons. Either the big name isn't quite as big as we thought, or the guy who was supposed to be barely good enough does slightly worse and rapidly crosses over to terrible. Or both.

 

 

I think they could rebuild and still sign Castro though. He's a benefit to our pitchers regardless.

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QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:58 PM)
I think they could rebuild and still sign Castro though. He's a benefit to our pitchers regardless.

For how much I'm willing to spend on a rebuilding team - he's out of my price range. Teams that have no warm bodies at catcher and are strong everywhere else should be looking to sign him. Heck the Astros are apparently one of them - signing a guy like him is absolutely necessary for a team like the Astros. They don't sign a catcher - that means they are trading for a catcher because they have a roster that is otherwise loaded. They may look for someone better, but coming away with someone is literally the difference between them being in/out of the playoffs next year.

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:11 PM)
Right. Polanco is their SS. He's a back end top 100 guy and they like him. If you think they need a SS more than SP, I don't know what to tell you, but clearly you're not up to speed with their needs.

 

I don't disagree that the Twins are unlikely to move Buxton/Sano/Berrios but again, its a team with interesting young offensive pieces that badly needs pitching. With an outsider now running the front office, perhaps he won't be as married to their prospects as the previous regime was. If they don't trade for controllable top of the rotation pitching, they're never going to get it.

 

It's still the same problem the White Sox have...they're not going to have enough offense if they trade Sano/Kepler AND they're not going to be able to afford to keep Dozier by signing him to an extension.

 

Buxton played really well the second half and is untouchable in the sense his value is still lower than it was a year ago, where 75% of it is still potential, like the White Sox return would be for Carlos Rodon today.

 

Let's say the offer was Sano, Berrios and Kepler/Rosario but no Buxton? That's going to do too much damage to their major league roster on the offensive side and only gives you a short window with the unaffordability going forward with Dozier.

 

Santana, Gibson, Hughes, May and Taylor Rogers are likely to be the rotation. In Rogers, they have their own potential hopes for a Sale-like breakout. It's a rotation that's still a bit short even with a Sale or Q inserted.

 

Isn't Suzuki a free agent?

 

Their lineup will be catcher, Buxton, Mauer, Dozier, Vargas, Grossman (will he repeat?), Polanco, Kepler/Rosario and Sano.

 

If you believe that Vargas and Grossman are for real, maybe...but that lineup comes up short without Sano IMO.

Do you honestly trust Kintzler as closer on a competitive team?

 

I just don't see a match because Berrios has some serious warts, they won't trade Buxton and Sano together, and they're going to try to push Kepler/Plouffe/Rosario/Vargas to the Sox as the third part of the deal...leaving it Sano, Berrios and Rosario for Sale. Who makes that particular trade? Even sending Nate Jones along doesn't get you Buxton...I just think there's too much downside risk for the Twins to trade Buxton and Sano together for a three year window when that would create too many other holes they don't have the payroll to fill, starting with the expected loss of Dozier after 2017 or 2018 (unless they sign him to an extension, his arbitration numbers will be huge based on this season.)

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:05 PM)
For how much I'm willing to spend on a rebuilding team - he's out of my price range. Teams that have no warm bodies at catcher and are strong everywhere else should be looking to sign him. Heck the Astros are apparently one of them - signing a guy like him is absolutely necessary for a team like the Astros. They don't sign a catcher - that means they are trading for a catcher because they have a roster that is otherwise loaded. They may look for someone better, but coming away with someone is literally the difference between them being in/out of the playoffs next year.

 

Let's not forget how the injury rehab for Ramos is going to create even more demand for guys like Wieters, Castro...heck, Suzuki would look good considering that would prevent him from beating up the Sox.

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QUOTE (2005thxfrthmmrs @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 09:28 AM)
Boston and LA aren't giving up that much for Sale and Quintana. If I'm a playoff team, I'd be concern with Sale since he has inevitably faded in the second half each of the past 4 years, and that's without throwing a single pitch in the playoffs.

 

Urias has a chance to be something special, no reason to think he couldn't throw 160 innings next year. He's definitely MLB ready, so he's worth more than Quintana alone. There's only realistically 3-4 guys Dodgers would trade him for, and none of which are pitchers.

 

Urias was on the table for Sale at the deadline. What do you think has changed since then?

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:54 PM)
Which is a great illustration of why the only correct option for this team is rebuilding. The FA market will not fix this mess unless we win the lottery 3-4 times and find guys who dramatically overproduce their contracts. Otherwise, we are constantly trying to patch positions with guys who are "good enough" and then trying to acquire one big name player to overcome the fact that 4-5 positions in the lineup and a large chunk of the rotation and bullpen are filled with guys who are barely good enough. That's the "Rick Hahn Special" that we saw starting with Keppinger - "This guy is better than the complete vacant gap we have here and therefore that's a major upgrade". We've seen how well this works over and over and over again over the past 4 seasons. Either the big name isn't quite as big as we thought, or the guy who was supposed to be barely good enough does slightly worse and rapidly crosses over to terrible. Or both.

I agree completely. Rebuilding is the most prudent choice this offseason, but I'm sure we'll do otherwise.

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Bringing back Hector Santiago when the Twins pass on salary arbitration seems quite possible...although the rumor was that Cooper eventually grew frustrated with him after first falling in love with him in 2012.

 

Edwin Jackson in the pen?

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 02:13 PM)
It's still the same problem the White Sox have...they're not going to have enough offense if they trade Sano/Kepler AND they're not going to be able to afford to keep Dozier by signing him to an extension.

 

Buxton played really well the second half and is untouchable in the sense his value is still lower than it was a year ago, where 75% of it is still potential, like the White Sox return would be for Carlos Rodon today.

 

Let's say the offer was Sano, Berrios and Kepler/Rosario but no Buxton? That's going to do too much damage to their major league roster on the offensive side and only gives you a short window with the unaffordability going forward with Dozier.

 

Sano, Berrios, and Kepler is a nice start, but they'd need to add more. Maybe a Kohl Stewart and Alex Kirilloff. I'd want Buxton as a part of any deal. Rosario sucks.

 

Santana, Gibson, Hughes, May and Taylor Rogers are likely to be the rotation. In Rogers, they have their own potential hopes for a Sale-like breakout. It's a rotation that's still a bit short even with a Sale or Q inserted.

 

No idea where you're getting your "sale-like breakout from Taylor Rodgers. That is comical stuff. And yes, their rotation would still suck. And you're missing Santiago.

 

Isn't Suzuki a free agent?

Yes. And that affects this how?

 

Their lineup will be catcher, Buxton, Mauer, Dozier, Vargas, Grossman (will he repeat?), Polanco, Kepler/Rosario and Sano.

If you believe that Vargas and Grossman are for real, maybe...but that lineup comes up short without Sano IMO.

Do you honestly trust Kintzler as closer on a competitive team?

 

Not sure what you're trying to convince me of here other than looking at MLB.com and listing off 75% of their roster. I don't think the Twins are good or will be good anytime soon. But they definitely aren't going to be good running out #5 or AAAA pitchers every 4/5 days.

 

I just don't see a match because Berrios has some serious warts, they won't trade Buxton and Sano together, and they're going to try to push Kepler/Plouffe/Rosario/Vargas to the Sox as the third part of the deal...leaving it Sano, Berrios and Rosario for Sale. Who makes that particular trade? Even sending Nate Jones along doesn't get you Buxton...I just think there's too much downside risk for the Twins to trade Buxton and Sano together for a three year window when that would create too many other holes they don't have the payroll to fill, starting with the expected loss of Dozier after 2017 or 2018 (unless they sign him to an extension, his arbitration numbers will be huge based on this season.)

 

For the third or fourth time - I don't think they'll trade these guys. It was just an idea of a team that would theoretically have the bullets that needs pitching.

 

Lol - comments above.

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 11:06 AM)
Yeah I don't see both going. I think one goes this offseason (Sale) and the other in the next year/year and a half (Quintana).

 

LOL

 

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Sign Riddick

Sign Wieters

Trade for McCutchen

Figure out something with Melky

Move Frazier to 1B, Abreu to DH, and pull a new 3b out of thin air

Hope Shields isn't a high school pitcher

Hope Gonzalez wasn't a flash in the pan

Hope Rodon takes and maintains a major leap

Hope Burdi comes up and dominates

.

.

.

Win 79 games

 

 

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QUOTE (miracleon35th @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 04:47 PM)
LOL

 

Excellent. Beautiful response. This board has bow gianed so much knowledge from your response.

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