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Dunt

Why Do KW/RH Get to Keep Their Jobs?

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The Sox have said once again that there was a depth/talent issue in the wake of Robin's departure, why do these two continue to get a free pass? Don't tell me it's because of loyalty, that's just a lazy explanation. They had a plan and it failed miserably (as most predicted it would), when does Jerry wake the f*** up and realize he needs to cut his losses on these 2?

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QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 08:10 AM)
The Sox have said once again that there was a depth/talent issue in the wake of Robin's departure, why do these two continue to get a free pass? Don't tell me it's because of loyalty, that's just a lazy explanation. They had a plan and it failed miserably (as most predicted it would), when does Jerry wake the f*** up and realize he needs to cut his losses on these 2?

 

Call it a lazy explanation, but it is what it is. Most on here want one or both gone so many have questions like you do.

Edited by soxfan2014

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I used to be a huge pro-Hahn guy, but the Rollins/Latos/Navarro signings as starters on a "contender" were pretty horrible. Part of me thinks/hopes that KW was behind those moves.

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QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 08:25 AM)
I used to be a huge pro-Hahn guy, but the Rollins/Latos/Navarro signings as starters on a "contender" were pretty horrible. Part of me thinks/hopes that KW was behind those moves.

 

Thing is, at this point, it doesnt really matter anymore who was "behind" each move. This front office wants to be viewed as a unified front that is on the same page all the time when it's very clear they aren't. So they arent afforded the luxury of saying all the bad moves are Kenny's ideas and all the good ones are Rick's.

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I dont understand how anyone can keep their job after the Shields misstep. I really hope some people are fired in the pro scouting department today.

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They aren't going to fire themselves. It's a group effort. It never was Hahn was the brains behind the good stuff, KW and JR were the idiots behind the bad. They all are responsible.

 

Unless JR sells or someone resigns, it's going to be the decision making line up no matter what the results.

 

What scares me is Hahn is already boasting about this last draft. That is way too soon, and puts a little more pressure on these new pros. We were all pretty excited about Courtney Hawkins after a couple of months. Let them develop without the burden. Chances are most will be nothing.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 02:34 PM)
I dont understand how anyone can keep their job after the Shields misstep. I really hope some people are fired in the pro scouting department today.

 

i was and in some way very critical of the sox FO as anyone.

 

but i still thought back then, getting Shields was a good gamble. who would have known that JS would have produce as he did.

 

pls think back, many posters were not happy at the way the sox was going into the season, esp in the SP dept.

 

i just hoped they, the owners learned from their mistake.

 

now the BIG QUESTION is, are the sox going to be buyers or sellers????

 

 

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 02:36 PM)
They aren't going to fire themselves. It's a group effort. It never was Hahn was the brains behind the good stuff, KW and JR were the idiots behind the bad. They all are responsible.

 

Unless JR sells or someone resigns, it's going to be the decision making line up no matter what the results.

 

What scares me is Hahn is already boasting about this last draft. That is way too soon, and puts a little more pressure on these new pros. We were all pretty excited about Courtney Hawkins after a couple of months. Let them develop without the burden. Chances are most will be nothing.

 

hahn has a right to boast of last yr draft. some of them are really developing. besides the pitching, i really like JF development and my thoughts are, can he be ready to produce at the big league.....

 

i leave that to others, i am not good at the analyzing of that talent.

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QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 08:25 AM)
I used to be a huge pro-Hahn guy, but the Rollins/Latos/Navarro signings as starters on a "contender" were pretty horrible. Part of me thinks/hopes that KW was behind those moves.

I'd love to see one of Hahn or KW gone, preferably KW, just so things can be simple enough to allow the team to have a clear direction.

 

That said, not to be picky, but I really had no issue with the Rollins signing. Anderson was definitely not ready yet, and no one can pretend they knew Saladino would be as good as he's been. It was a signing that made sense at the time, and wasn't a big deal.

 

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 09:31 AM)
I'd love to see one of Hahn or KW gone, preferably KW, just so things can be simple enough to allow the team to have a clear direction.

 

That said, not to be picky, but I really had no issue with the Rollins signing. Anderson was definitely not ready yet, and no one can pretend they knew Saladino would be as good as he's been. It was a signing that made sense at the time, and wasn't a big deal.

 

The Rollins signing actually served its purpose on the low end. While Rollins didn't hit to make it a home run of a signing, what it did do was provide a bridge to Anderson to get ready in the minors.

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:31 PM)
I'd love to see one of Hahn or KW gone, preferably KW, just so things can be simple enough to allow the team to have a clear direction.

 

That said, not to be picky, but I really had no issue with the Rollins signing. Anderson was definitely not ready yet, and no one can pretend they knew Saladino would be as good as he's been. It was a signing that made sense at the time, and wasn't a big deal.

 

well hahn or kw.... i really have an opinion on what you mention, but the great part of being a fan is now, at this time, the off-season. the building or rebuilding of the team and the way the team need to address.

 

was all the moves the sox did last yr was a mistake..... no way it just didn't work out for whatever reason.

 

now comes the debate on what the sox need to do to fix this team, from a fan perspective.

 

buyers or sellers..... that is going to be a tough decision the FO will need to come to terms with.

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So Hahn deserves credit for replacing Laumann with Hostetler?

 

In the end, it still comes down to Collins being an everyday catcher or at the very least an 800+ OPS bat at DH. He's the key, because offense isn't coming from the free agent market at a price they are willing to pay.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 08:10 AM)
The Sox have said once again that there was a depth/talent issue in the wake of Robin's departure, why do these two continue to get a free pass? Don't tell me it's because of loyalty, that's just a lazy explanation. They had a plan and it failed miserably (as most predicted it would), when does Jerry wake the f*** up and realize he needs to cut his losses on these 2?

 

According to the preseason prediction poll, most people on Soxtalk did not predict it to fail miserably and you predicted a playoff appearance.

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I like when people talk about this two-headed leadership team like you can't do it any other way besides having one guy in charge. But it begs the question why it is that such an arrangement hasn't blown up in the face of the Cubs?

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QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 10:25 AM)
I like when people talk about this two-headed leadership team like you can't do it any other way besides having one guy in charge. But it begs the question why it is that such an arrangement hasn't blown up in the face of the Cubs?

It's not that there's anything wrong with having two people in charge, it's that in the specific case of the Sox, there's so much evidence that they're disorganized and/or pulling in opposite directions. Disagreements are one thing, and they're probably even healthy, but some of the weird quotes that have gotten out just make the Sox seem dysfunctional.

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QUOTE (shysocks @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 10:29 AM)
It's not that there's anything wrong with having two people in charge, it's that in the specific case of the Sox, there's so much evidence that they're disorganized and/or pulling in opposite directions. Disagreements are one thing, and they're probably even healthy, but some of the weird quotes that have gotten out just make the Sox seem dysfunctional.

We hear things, it doesn't mean it's true. They have been together for most of this century. I would imagine if there was a huge conflict, Hahn would have tried a bit harder for other jobs. Maybe KW got bored with his new role and started meddling. We don't know. I do think KW and JR should let RH generally manage if they make him the GM. If they don't, I don't understand the promotion. KW should make it clear that RH runs the show. If he can't do that, he should either let people know, or he should take a walk.

 

That said, I don't buy Hahn is totally against the bad moves that are made. If he was and he spins for them, he is weak, and you wouldn't want that as a GM anyway.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 10:38 AM)
I do think KW and JR should let RH generally manage if they make him the GM. If they don't, I don't understand the promotion. KW should make it clear that RH runs the show. If he can't do that, he should either let people know, or he should take a walk.

 

That said, I don't buy Hahn is totally against the bad moves that are made. If he was and he spins for them, he is weak, and you wouldn't want that as a GM anyway.

 

I agree with this.

 

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 10:38 AM)
We hear things, it doesn't mean it's true. They have been together for most of this century. I would imagine if there was a huge conflict, Hahn would have tried a bit harder for other jobs. Maybe KW got bored with his new role and started meddling. We don't know. I do think KW and JR should let RH generally manage if they make him the GM. If they don't, I don't understand the promotion. KW should make it clear that RH runs the show. If he can't do that, he should either let people know, or he should take a walk.

 

That said, I don't buy Hahn is totally against the bad moves that are made. If he was and he spins for them, he is weak, and you wouldn't want that as a GM anyway.

To me it seems obvious there is a power struggle. I wish I could come up with a specific example to strengthen my argument but I got nothing off the top of my head. Maybe Hahn is too proud to walk away even though KW has interfered..

 

I don't buy the bolded either. Clearly they're both responsible for plenty of mistakes. It would just be better if they were marching to the same beat, and if they can't, somebody has to go.

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QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 08:25 AM)
I used to be a huge pro-Hahn guy, but the Rollins/Latos/Navarro signings as starters on a "contender" were pretty horrible. Part of me thinks/hopes that KW was behind those moves.

 

Hard to get too upset over signing three guys for a combined ~$7M. None were great signings, but they also weren't the Sox problem. I also think Rollins played a huge role in mentoring Anderson, which was well worth the $1M they paid him.

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I generally tend to defend FO decisions, if only because everyone around here vehemently pretends to have enough information to call everything black and white when the truth is that none of us have any idea what we're talking about.

 

But even I have to join the criticism bandwagon for the last 7-8 months of decision-making.

 

1. To this day, I feel like they foolishly cut the acquisitions short during the latter half of the offseason. There were a million good short AND long-term reasons to lay out for a final OF bat (and/or Ian Desmond), and they fell short. I don't get the strategy there.

 

2. The Shields thing was always terrible. I spent way too much time around here digging up and typing out the reasons we shouldn't sign him when he was a free agent, and ALL of them still applied to trading for him. I thought passing on Shields as a free agent was evidence that Hahn took pitching peripherals seriously, but when he made the trade, I now have to wonder what info he's using.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:06 AM)
I generally tend to defend FO decisions, if only because everyone around here vehemently pretends to have enough information to call everything black and white when the truth is that none of us have any idea what we're talking about.

 

But even I have to join the criticism bandwagon for the last 7-8 months of decision-making.

 

1. To this day, I feel like they foolishly cut the acquisitions short during the latter half of the offseason. There were a million good short AND long-term reasons to lay out for a final OF bat (and/or Ian Desmond), and they fell short. I don't get the strategy there.

 

2. The Shields thing was always terrible. I spent way too much time around here digging up and typing out the reasons we shouldn't sign him when he was a free agent, and ALL of them still applied to trading for him. I thought passing on Shields as a free agent was evidence that Hahn took pitching peripherals seriously, but when he made the trade, I now have to wonder what info he's using.

Speaking of Desmond, he basically was Jimmy Rollins in the second half. He would have helped the first half, but his second half collapse would most assuredly not led the Sox to the playoffs, and Robin would be blamed for a choke.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:06 AM)
I generally tend to defend FO decisions, if only because everyone around here vehemently pretends to have enough information to call everything black and white when the truth is that none of us have any idea what we're talking about.

 

But even I have to join the criticism bandwagon for the last 7-8 months of decision-making.

 

1. To this day, I feel like they foolishly cut the acquisitions short during the latter half of the offseason. There were a million good short AND long-term reasons to lay out for a final OF bat (and/or Ian Desmond), and they fell short. I don't get the strategy there.

 

2. The Shields thing was always terrible. I spent way too much time around here digging up and typing out the reasons we shouldn't sign him when he was a free agent, and ALL of them still applied to trading for him. I thought passing on Shields as a free agent was evidence that Hahn took pitching peripherals seriously, but when he made the trade, I now have to wonder what info he's using.

Honestly, I'm convinced JR influences most of the moves. He has been on record in the past that he LOVES signing veterans 'with something to prove' Also, he knows these players are cheap and are a low risk type acquisition. Hence, the ridiculous mediocre to poor signings by KW and Hahn over the years. And when he DOES give KW/Hahn the green light to get out of the comfort zone-- KW/Hahn sign the wrong player and they come here to suck or be mediocre. Regardless of who is at fault, their approach is beyond stale and it does NOT work. In order to for KW/Hahn to leave, i'm 100% convinced that JR needs to sell the team or pass away. :( Get ready for another half measured offseason. :angry:

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