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Rumors that Cespedes is opting out

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:21 PM)
You're so sure of this, yet are incapable of offering a shred of supporting evidence.

 

 

 

I have no idea which post you're referring to. And that doesn't surprise me, given the content of your remarks.

 

I just said look at his performance when Boston wasn't stacked with all stars. He's been protected hitting in the 6-7 hole all year for Boston because he's batting behind 5 all star caliber players. Of course he's going to see more pitches to hit as a result.

 

You also can't provide a shred of supporting evidence he will be a 5+ WAR player for years to come outside of 1 season.

Edited by soxforlife05

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QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:25 PM)
I just said look at his performance when Boston wasn't stacked with all stars.

 

Yeah, what a shocker that he wasn't raking at age 23, and didn't become a really solid ML hitter until he was 25. That's totally abnormal and a sign that he'll definitely be a bust going forward.

 

You also can't provide a shred of supporting evidence he will be a 5+ WAR player for years to come outside of 1 season.

 

I never did, but if he's a 3 WAR, he'd be a vast improvement over our current CF options. Throw in 2-3 of Boston's best prospects, and that'd be a decent return for Sale.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:30 PM)
Yeah, it'd really suck to get a 26-year-old CF who can hit in the 2-spot, who's put up an .830 OPS in each of the past two seasons, and is under team control through 2020.

 

If I'm dealing Sale, I want at least one proven young major-leaguer. Bradley and Betts are the best two fits for the Sox, and Bradley is going to be the more realistic centerpiece.

Betts is a centerpiece.

Bradley isn't...can still do a Sale deal without a centerpiece. It would take some spot-on scouting, analytics skill, creativity and quality negotiation....unfortunately the FO isn't exactly replete with those skills.

 

Hahn is much more likely to be duped into trading for the next "star" some team peddles... no scouting or analytics required: don't have to do anything but pile on the prospects,

Edited by GreenSox

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:41 PM)
Betts is a centerpiece.

Bradley isn't...can still do a Sale deal without a centerpiece. It would take some spot-on scoutting and creativity and quality negotiation....unfortunately the FO isn't exactly replete with those skills.

 

Hahn's more likely to clear out the farm for McCutheon or the like...something that doesn't require evaluation or scouting - just pile on the prospects and your good.

 

Betts is also a 9.6 WAR. Dombrowski wouldn't trade Betts for Sale straight-up.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:40 PM)
Yeah, what a shocker that he wasn't raking at age 23, and didn't become a really solid ML hitter until he was 25. That's totally abnormal and a sign that he'll definitely be a bust going forward.

 

 

 

I never did, but if he's a 3 WAR, he'd be a vast improvement over our current CF options. Throw in 2-3 of Boston's best prospects, and that'd be a decent return for Sale.

 

He didn't start hitting well until Betts and Bogaerts started playing like all-stars and Hanley regained his all star form. Add Pedroia and Ortiz as healthy/steady producers and obviously it's going to help his stats. If you deny that you've lost all credibility. Oh and they dropped him to #9 in the order since he's been slumping for months on end.

 

I don't want a 3 WAR player being a centerpiece in a Sale deal. We need at least a few guys who project as all stars regardless of what lineup they are playing in. We should instead be trusting our major/minor league scouts to make the correct player evaluations on guys like Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Rodriguez, Kopech, etc.

 

If we don't trust our scouts enough to evaluate minor league talent NO players should be moved off the major league roster until house cleaning is done.

Edited by soxforlife05

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QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:49 PM)
He didn't start hitting well until Betts and Bogaerts started playing like all-stars and Hanley regained his all star form. Add Pedroia and Ortiz as healthy/steady producers and obviously it's going to help his stats. If you deny that you've lost all credibility.

 

It helps that he's not surrounded by garbage. Then again, if he hits in the 2-hole in just about any lineup, he's going to get pitches to hit. Nobody's going to pitch around Bradley to get to Abreu.

 

I think it's obvious that his struggles two and three years ago had to do a lot more with his age and experience level than the composition of his team.

 

I don't want a 3 WAR player being a centerpiece in a Sale deal. We need at least a few guys who project as all stars regardless of what lineup they are playing in. We should instead be trusting our minor league scouts to make the correct player evaluations on guys like Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Rodriguez, Kopech, etc.

 

No, you get a 2-5 WAR CF in addition to 2-3 of their top prospects (many of whom are Top 50 overall and ML-ready). It's difficult to define the "centerpiece" of that bunch.

 

I'd love to get a package of Moncada, Benintiendi, Devers, and Kopech in return for Sale, but I don't think that's going to happen. (I don't see Dombrowski giving up Benintiendi, given the way he's played this season, and they have a ton of money invested in Moncada already.) IF the Sox could get those four guys, then I don't see the point in Bradley. But I just don't see Dombrowski giving away his farm system to Hahn for Sale.

 

The problem for the Sox in dealing with Boston is that, unlike 15 years ago, they're not desperate for a ring. They have plenty of fans, plenty of money, and they have the player talent to be competitive for another decade. The Sox may be better off doing business with the Yankees.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:00 PM)
It helps that he's not surrounded by garbage. Then again, if he hits in the 2-hole in just about any lineup, he's going to get pitches to hit. Nobody's going to pitch around Bradley to get to Abreu.

 

I think it's obvious that his struggles two and three years ago had to do a lot more with his age and experience level than the composition of his team.

 

 

 

No, you get a 2-5 WAR CF in addition to 2-3 of their top prospects (many of whom are Top 50 overall and ML-ready). It's difficult to define the "centerpiece" of that bunch.

 

I'd love to get a package of Moncada, Benintiendi, Devers, and Kopech in return for Sale, but I don't think that's going to happen. (I don't see Dombrowski giving up Benintiendi, given the way he's played this season, and they have a ton of money invested in Moncada already.) IF the Sox could get those four guys, then I don't see the point in Bradley. But I just don't see Dombrowski giving away his farm system to Hahn for Sale.

 

The problem for the Sox in dealing with Boston is that, unlike 15 years ago, they're not desperate for a ring. They have plenty of fans, plenty of money, and they have the player talent to be competitive for another decade. The Sox may be better off doing business with the Yankees.

 

 

Bradley has never batted top of the order. You really can't make that assumption. In fact he's been almost exclusively a 6-9 hitter in their order his entire career.

 

Benintendi doesn't have as much value to the Red Sox as you think. They won't be constrained financially to sign a corner outfielder if they were to trade him. All of their young superstars are locked up on cheap deals for a long time. He isn't a CF for them so he has less defensive value to Boston than he would have to the White Sox.

 

Moncada is blocked and learning a new position. Devers will be blocked if Moncada sticks at 3B. Kopech is still a ways away from the bigs. There is no reason they shouldn't be willing to move some combination of 4-5 of their top prospects for any reason other than stubbornness. So hope they get swept by CLE so they will find a sense of urgency and stop playing games when the Yankees jump into the Sale sweepstakes this offseason.

 

If they clear out the farm for Sale, sign Encarnacion, and sign a corner OF (Cespedes?) they are all-in and will be the favorites next year to win the World Series.

Edited by soxforlife05

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Why is a Sale trade being discussed in a thread about Cespedes opting out of his current contract? A Sale trade would signal a full rebuild and should logically be followed by trading Q, Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Abreu...pretty much everyone for whom a decent return could be had except Eaton, Anderson, and Rodon. Meanwhile, signing Cespedes would be a clear signal that the White Sox intend to compete in 2017. This doesn't make sense.

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QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:20 PM)
Why is a Sale trade being discussed in a thread about Cespedes opting out of his current contract? A Sale trade would signal a full rebuild and should logically be followed by trading Q, Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Abreu...pretty much everyone for whom a decent return could be had except Eaton, Anderson, and Rodon. Meanwhile, signing Cespedes would be a clear signal that the White Sox intend to compete in 2017. This doesn't make sense.

 

If Cespedes wasn't interested last year what would change things this year? He will have plenty of suitors in a weaker FA class. Upton was rumored to not be interesting in playing here either. Obviously it would be a big splash to sign him but we'd still be 2 players away.

Edited by soxforlife05

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:41 PM)
Betts is also a 9.6 WAR. Dombrowski wouldn't trade Betts for Sale straight-up.

Agree.

I'm fine with Bradley...but he's got to be coupled with Moncada +

 

A Sale trade could reinvigorate this team, close several holes, and clear the clubhouse of dog and pony show. If properly executed.

 

 

But I doubt it happens - if they were too scared to make a move in July I don't see it happening now.

 

Agree with comment above on a Red Sox sweep...that will send a message that they lack top end pitching (which they do), Porcello's freak/career year notwithstanding.

Edited by GreenSox

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QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 12:20 AM)
Why is a Sale trade being discussed in a thread about Cespedes opting out of his current contract? A Sale trade would signal a full rebuild and should logically be followed by trading Q, Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Abreu...pretty much everyone for whom a decent return could be had except Eaton, Anderson, and Rodon. Meanwhile, signing Cespedes would be a clear signal that the White Sox intend to compete in 2017. This doesn't make sense.

 

Because I tossed out that I hope the Sox don't sign him and instead, Red Sox do to replace Ortiz power/making Benintendi expendable in a deal.

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QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 09:39 AM)
No they cannot.

Agreed. You cannot fail this trade. Boston, in my opinion, is still the best match. I'd be perfectly fine with JBJ starting the deal. JBJ, Moncada, Kopech, Devers and Vazquez would work for me. In this type of deal, you need to get one MLB ready player to start the package. I'd love Betts back in the deal but I don't see them doing that but they may get desperate and feel they can plug in someone else. If they did include Betts, how many players would you get back? 3-4 as opposed to 4-5 if he's not in it? Betts, Moncada, Devers and Kopech would be a dream. Maybe I'm way off on the package I'm just throwing s*** out there so to speak.

Question is if Sale got dealt and ya got back a combination of Betts or JBJ, and 3-5 of Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, etc., would that be enough to keep Quintana?

Edited by SouthSideSale

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QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 10:03 AM)
Agreed. You cannot fail this trade. Boston, in my opinion, is still the best match. I'd be perfectly fine with JBJ starting the deal. JBJ, Moncada, Kopech, Devers and Vazquez would work for me. In this type of deal, you need to get one MLB ready player to start the package. I'd love Betts back in the deal but I don't see them doing that but they may get desperate and feel they can plug in someone else. If they did include Betts, how many players would you get back? 3-4 as opposed to 4-5 if he's not in it? Betts, Moncada, Devers and Kopech would be a dream. Maybe I'm way off on the package I'm just throwing s*** out there so to speak.

Question is if Sale got dealt and ya got back a combination of Betts or JBJ, and 3-5 of Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, etc., would that be enough to keep Quintana?

 

I'd love Betts and would take less minor-league talent as part of the package if he's included. But if I were Dombrowski, I don't think I'd even do Betts-for-Sale straight up.

 

I don't necessarily think that the Sox need to get a "centerpiece" player in return for Sale. They just need several good players in return, most of whom should be ML-ready. If Hahn received all of the top five Red Sox prospects, that would be enough. However, I'd prefer at least one guy who is proven ML talent, and hopefully it would be somebody who fills a current position of need (CF, LF, etc.).

 

If the Sox could get Bradley, Devers, Kopech, and either Moncada or Benintiendi in return, I think that's on the optimistic side of what the Sox could reasonably get. Dombrowski undoubtedly wants Sale, but he's not going to completely give up the future to get him. Sale's really good, but he's not Randy Johnson-good and the Red Sox have resources to pay big-time for free agent starting pitchers.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 11:03 AM)
Agreed. You cannot fail this trade. Boston, in my opinion, is still the best match. I'd be perfectly fine with JBJ starting the deal. JBJ, Moncada, Kopech, Devers and Vazquez would work for me. In this type of deal, you need to get one MLB ready player to start the package. I'd love Betts back in the deal but I don't see them doing that but they may get desperate and feel they can plug in someone else. If they did include Betts, how many players would you get back? 3-4 as opposed to 4-5 if he's not in it? Betts, Moncada, Devers and Kopech would be a dream. Maybe I'm way off on the package I'm just throwing s*** out there so to speak.

Question is if Sale got dealt and ya got back a combination of Betts or JBJ, and 3-5 of Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, etc., would that be enough to keep Quintana?

 

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Personally I don't think the Sox's problem is superstars. We've got enough of those. Our problem is that below the elite tier, we have NOTHING. Our regulars who aren't stars are practically sub-replacement-level. Where our money needs to be invested is not more older, expensive superstars, but in developing the damn farm, drafting well, and signing decent mid tier guys. I know that's what we've tried to do a lot of, but they keep failing. Is it our scouting dept? I dunno. But whatever it is it needs to get fixed, because we'll never win just by throwing more big money for another superstar, if it means another year of 5 replacement level bats in the lineup.

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QUOTE (Reddy @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 06:05 PM)
Personally I don't think the Sox's problem is superstars. We've got enough of those. Our problem is that below the elite tier, we have NOTHING. Our regulars who aren't stars are practically sub-replacement-level. Where our money needs to be invested is not more older, expensive superstars, but in developing the damn farm, drafting well, and signing decent mid tier guys. I know that's what we've tried to do a lot of, but they keep failing. Is it our scouting dept? I dunno. But whatever it is it needs to get fixed, because we'll never win just by throwing more big money for another superstar, if it means another year of 5 replacement level bats in the lineup.

 

I think you are pretty much on target here. The top seven or eight Sox guys can stack up to most other teams but what absolutely kills them is the crap they run out there at the other positions and when a guy goes down say a mediocre player like Austin Jackson they can't even replace that. The bench is brutal and they have no one on the farm it seems who can come up and help out when a mediocre player goes down...he's just replaced by another minor league mediocre player if that.

 

Yet the Sox have supposedly been developing the farm for the last several years. It's not rock bottom bad anymore but it's still not ready to prdice talent in quantity. How in the hell long does it take and why can other teams seemingly do it overnight (relatively speaking) and the Sox keep spinning their wheels acting like the Keystone Kops? I'll wait for an answer from Buddy Bell for that one! LOL.

 

Mark

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Betts will likely finish top 3 in MVP voting. He is younger, cheaper, and has more team control left than Sale. What is the argument for Sale actually having more trade value than Betts?

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QUOTE (Reddy @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 06:05 PM)
Personally I don't think the Sox's problem is superstars. We've got enough of those. Our problem is that below the elite tier, we have NOTHING. Our regulars who aren't stars are practically sub-replacement-level. Where our money needs to be invested is not more older, expensive superstars, but in developing the damn farm, drafting well, and signing decent mid tier guys. I know that's what we've tried to do a lot of, but they keep failing. Is it our scouting dept? I dunno. But whatever it is it needs to get fixed, because we'll never win just by throwing more big money for another superstar, if it means another year of 5 replacement level bats in the lineup.

 

We don't have any elite tier players offensively. We have a number of nice players that are capable of putting up one great season but no perennial offensive all stars.

 

Clean out Boston's system: Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, and some low level high risk high reward prospects (or Vazquez as others have mentioned). Benintendi will be as good if not better than JBJ by the end of next year. There's no reason to ask for a major league regular which will substantially reduce the return. The White Sox need to put some faith in their scouting for a change or make changes if it's not up to par. Demanding major league players makes it look like the team has no confidence in their ability to evaluate young talent.

 

We don't need to deal with Boston, Boston needs to deal with us. Good luck to them if they expect to get an elite SP they desperately need giving up nothing.

Edited by soxforlife05

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QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 11:03 AM)
Agreed. You cannot fail this trade. Boston, in my opinion, is still the best match. I'd be perfectly fine with JBJ starting the deal. JBJ, Moncada, Kopech, Devers and Vazquez would work for me. In this type of deal, you need to get one MLB ready player to start the package. I'd love Betts back in the deal but I don't see them doing that but they may get desperate and feel they can plug in someone else. If they did include Betts, how many players would you get back? 3-4 as opposed to 4-5 if he's not in it? Betts, Moncada, Devers and Kopech would be a dream. Maybe I'm way off on the package I'm just throwing s*** out there so to speak.

Question is if Sale got dealt and ya got back a combination of Betts or JBJ, and 3-5 of Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, etc., would that be enough to keep Quintana?

 

No chance they offer Betts.

 

I've already mentioned the problems with JBJ but there's no way they would include Benintendi with him because that would leave 2 holes in their OF. If you ask for JBJ (major league starter for them) and Moncada they are going to put up a ton of resistance to give up more than a Kopech or Vazquez beyond the first 2. Just ask for all their prospects (Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, and maybe Vazquez like you mentioned) and be done with it.

 

The only way it would make sense to keep Quintana is if the team re-signs Frazier to be a 1B after next season. Lineup going into 2018 could look something like this:

 

LF - FA/Cabrera?/Saladino?/Collins?

CF - Benintendi

RF - Eaton

3B - Devers

SS - Anderson

2B - Moncada

1B - Frazier

DH - Abreu

C - Vazquez

 

Util - Saladino (super utility and plays LF when Collins is catching)

C - Collins (backup C but plays most days in LF)

 

Q

Rodon

FA

2 of Gonzalez/Hansen/Kopech/Fulmer/Adams/2017 #1 Draft Pick

 

Rotation would have a few more holes though. That has the potential to be a really nice lineup. We'd probably need to sign a #3 ish starter in FA. I think in 2019 we could make a run at the division/wild card with that lineup.

Edited by soxforlife05

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QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 9, 2016 -> 01:22 AM)
No chance they offer Betts.

 

I've already mentioned the problems with JBJ but there's no way they would include Benintendi with him because that would leave 2 holes in their OF. If you ask for JBJ (major league starter for them) and Moncada they are going to put up a ton of resistance to give up more than a Kopech or Vazquez beyond the first 2. Just ask for all their prospects (Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, and maybe Vazquez like you mentioned) and be done with it.

 

The only way it would make sense to keep Quintana is if the team re-signs Frazier to be a 1B after next season. Lineup going into 2018 could look something like this:

 

LF - FA/Cabrera?/Saladino?/Collins?

CF - Benintendi

RF - Eaton

3B - Devers

SS - Anderson

2B - Moncada

1B - Frazier

DH - Abreu

C - Vazquez

 

Util - Saladino (super utility and plays LF when Collins is catching)

C - Collins (backup C but plays most days in LF)

 

Q

Rodon

FA

2 of Gonzalez/Hansen/Kopech/Fulmer/Adams/2017 #1 Draft Pick

 

Rotation would have a few more holes though. That has the potential to be a really nice lineup. We'd probably need to sign a #3 ish starter in FA. I think in 2019 we could make a run at the division/wild card with that lineup.

 

Agree that Betts is unlikely. I thought I said so. But if another starter gets bombed and they're swept, you'll see panic in Boston this off-season. Also don't sleep on the Yankees but will have to give up Gary Sanchez.

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There's a huge risk you don't get much more than Sanchez and he turns out to be a one hit wonder like a Kevin Maas or Shane Spencer.

 

A year ago he was part of a major package, now he would comprise 75-80% of that deal individually. It's one your scouting department has to get 100% right. Failure means multiple heads will roll.

 

Getting 3-5 players from Boston seems like the better risk, because you only need a couple of those players to be above average regulars (2.5-4 war) rather than Sanchez having to be a perennial All Star at catcher.

 

Of course the other issue is getting back more than one of Bradley, Benintendi and Moncada. JBJr means you are rebuilding on the fly and probably have to keep Frazier unless he completely tanks.

Edited by caulfield12

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Don't see us getting all three of Moncada, Benintendi, & Devers. I think two of them plus Rodriguez (former top 100 prospect who fills Sale's spot immedietely), Kopech, Jason Groome (2016 first round pick), and one or two lesser pieces (at least one being a top 10 type) would be a tremendous haul. For me, the key is getting Benintendi and his ability to play CF. He's got superstar written all over him and would allow us to keep Eaton in RF. Give me Benintendi and I can live with Devers over Moncada as long as we're also getting the three pitchers I mentioned.

 

And honestly, I don't see why the Red Sox would pass on such a deal. Devers isn't ready yet and Moncada may end up taking his spot at 3B anyways. They can easily sign an OF in free agency to replace Benintendi. Rodrguez is completely expendable with Sale in fold. Kopech & Groome are nice looking prospects, but are far enougn away they shouldn't hold up a deal. My only concern is Hahn pushes for Betts (which would be ridiculous) or JBJ (possible if willing to take lesser secondary pieces) and ultimately kills a deal.

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