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Potential + Effects of the World Series?

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QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 01:22 AM)
It's going to be that way for some time. They kept the same non productive scouts, minor league director, coaches, everything that is not productive. They can't scout at all. I may go into Sox fan exile. There are other teams so there is no reason to lose interest in a sport you love dearly. I do admire what Ricketts has done. This is such a dream come true for him. I wish some other organization was interested in Kenny Williams.

I hate the Ricketts, but they did everything right from an ownership perspective. Jerry Reinsdorf and his partners should be absolutely embarrassed that a new ownership group was able to come in, blow everything up, and win a championship so quickly. And yes, I'm aware the Cubs are a completely different animal than the White Sox, but the point here is that Tom hired the smartest baseball guy he could and gave him complete control of the organization. He didn't meddle in the club's direction and say rebuildings are off limit and he didn't force Theo to keep a bunch of people in the organization because of loyalty.

 

I'm not a classic Reinsdorf hater by any means, but he is the single biggest culprit for our recent struggles. His will to win but refusal to back it up with the financial means necessary is a huge problem, resulting in half-ass offseasons that find us routinely coming up short of the underlying goal. More troubling is his unwavering loyalty, which has created an organization filled with group think and a complete lack of accountability. I say this all the time, but the fact that Buddy Bell is still around, let alone has been promoted to assistant GM position is clear evidence of this problem.

 

Unfortunately, it's hard to be optimistic of this organization at the moment. It definitely feels like it's time for a new ownergroup come in and completely clean house. Short of that, hopefully Reinsdorf sees what the Cubs accomplished and finally allows for a rebuild. I know it will be painful for all of us, but I don't think there's an alternative. Another half-ass offseason without clear direction and execution could have grave consequences for us.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 06:57 AM)
I hate the Ricketts, but they did everything right from an ownership perspective. Jerry Reinsdorf and his partners should be absolutely embarrassed that a new ownership group was able to come in, blow everything up, and win a championship so quickly. And yes, I'm aware the Cubs are a completely different animal than the White Sox, but the point here is that Tom hired the smartest baseball guy he could and gave him complete control of the organization. He didn't meddle in the club's direction and say rebuildings are off limit and he didn't force Theo to keep a bunch of people in the organization because of loyalty.

 

I'm not a classic Reinsdorf hater by any means, but he is the single biggest culprit for our recent struggles. His will to win but refusal to back it up with the financial means necessary is a huge problem, resulting in half-ass offseasons that find us routinely coming up short of the underlying goal. More troubling is his unwavering loyalty, which has created an organization filled with group think and a complete lack of accountability. I say this all the time, but the fact that Buddy Bell is still around, let alone has been promoted to assistant GM position is clear evidence of this problem.

 

Unfortunately, it's hard to be optimistic of this organization at the moment. It definitely feels like it's time for a new ownergroup come in and completely clean house. Short of that, hopefully Reinsdorf sees what the Cubs accomplished and finally allows for a rebuild. I know it will be painful for all of us, but I don't think there's an alternative. Another half-ass offseason without clear direction and execution could have grave consequences for us.

100% in agreement. The main problem is Jerry Reinsdorf. Things will not change until we have new ownership.

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QUOTE (iWin4Ron @ Nov 2, 2016 -> 11:56 PM)
Yup.

 

The 'Sox better make some big changes with the organization.

 

I have absolutely no faith that big changes are in the future. Does anyone know if all the coaching decisions were those of Renteria or were they forced on him? I was thinking there could have been some new blood to that coaching staff.

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QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 12:39 AM)
The Indians just went down to Game 7 without a catcher and an entire outfield of stiffs. The pitcher could be a problem but we would only need to get 1 game out of a Gonzalez/Shields/emerging prospect in a hypothetical World Series scenario.

 

Cespedes would be your CF. Tilson 4th OF, Saladino super sub/DH and we could see if we can bring back Morneau on the cheap and sign a platoon catcher to pair with Narvaez and push Collins quick if he shows signs of success.

Seriously just go look at the numbers.

 

The Indians put up 46 fWAR in the Regular Season. The White Sox put up 31.

 

If I never heard from this organization how there's this great easy shortcut, how they could be winners without having to build the best team, it would leave me a much happier person.

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QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Nov 2, 2016 -> 11:15 PM)
The heirs would effectively pay capital gains and an estate tax either way I think.

 

 

From what I read it is much more if the original owner sells as opposed to passing away. Could have mis read it though.

 

Mark

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 08:54 AM)
From what I read it is much more if the original owner sells as opposed to passing away. Could have mis read it though.

 

Mark

 

^ That's true. When you inherit an asset with potential capital gains tax, the tax base is generally 'stepped up' to fair market value. So basically his heir likely wouldn't have to pay capital gains tax unless he/she held onto the team and it continued to appreciate.

 

Source: I'm a third year law student...never thought I'd need to apply anything I've learned to the Sox

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Sox have no one to blame but themselves for their position. We have an awful owner and an awful front office. Cubs winning or not, this franchise is a f***ing trainwreck.

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QUOTE (Dunt @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 09:17 AM)
Sox have no one to blame but themselves for their position. We have an awful owner and an awful front office. Cubs winning or not, this franchise is a f***ing trainwreck.

 

Nice summation in less than 50 words.

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QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 07:24 AM)
100% in agreement. The main problem is Jerry Reinsdorf. Things will not change until we have new ownership.

Last night, unfortunately for Mr. Reinsdorf, he has now enshrined in his legacy as White Sox owner the assumption of the role of presiding over the "losingest" team in all of baseball. That mantle no longer belongs to the Chicago Cubs. That baton unfortunately was handed over to the Chicago White Sox the moment Rizzo caught that ball to end the game last night.

 

In Reinsdorf's defense, he inherited a ball club that had only four playoff appearances in the club's 80 year history prior to his arrival as owner. But with only 5 playoff appearances in his 36 years as owner, he has presided over continued failure, so much so that the Cubs, despite their miserable history, have managed to accomplish enough in the past decade to surpass the Sox in terms of success.

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QUOTE (Dunt @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 09:17 AM)
Sox have no one to blame but themselves for their position. We have an awful owner and an awful front office. Cubs winning or not, this franchise is a f***ing trainwreck.

 

I don't believe JR thinks there is a problem:

- Attendance issue is offset by stadium lease.

- Mid-pack payroll keeps them cleanly in the green.

- Makes him and his partners an ongoing fortune.

- Surrounded by his frat brothers.

- Bought the franchise at $30M-ish, market worth near $1B.

 

He is basking in glory...the kind that has nothing to do with winning baseball.

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Saying the Cubs do things the right way and expecting the White Sox to copy what they do is just wrong. At their lowest point, they have $100 million more to play with every year than the White Sox. Theo is great, but he is like Phil Jackson. He didn't put himself in a situation where the odds were going to be so stacked against him. A total rebuild is a lot easier when you still draw almost 3 million a year in the lean years.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 10:06 AM)
Last night, unfortunately for Mr. Reinsdorf, he has now enshrined in his legacy as White Sox owner the assumption of the role of presiding over the "losingest" team in all of baseball. That mantle no longer belongs to the Chicago Cubs. That baton unfortunately was handed over to the Chicago White Sox the moment Rizzo caught that ball to end the game last night.

 

In Reinsdorf's defense, he inherited a ball club that had only four playoff appearances in the club's 80 year history prior to his arrival as owner. But with only 5 playoff appearances in his 36 years as owner, he has presided over continued failure, so much so that the Cubs, despite their miserable history, have managed to accomplish enough in the past decade to surpass the Sox in terms of success.

 

What in all hell?

 

If it no longer belongs to the Cubs, it goes to the Indians. Does 2005 not exist in your memory?

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QUOTE (joegraz @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 11:02 AM)
I don't believe JR thinks there is a problem:

- Attendance issue is offset by stadium lease.

- Mid-pack payroll keeps them cleanly in the green.

- Makes him and his partners an ongoing fortune.

- Surrounded by his frat brothers.

- Bought the franchise at $30M-ish, market worth near $1B.

 

He is basking in glory...the kind that has nothing to do with winning baseball.

 

I'd really like to see this proven mathematically. I hear it said, but have never seen any real numbers put to it.

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QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 12:15 AM)
The heirs would effectively pay capital gains and an estate tax either way I think.

 

The JR estate is no doubt in trust, which means capital gains or estate taxes do not apply

Edited by captain54

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 06:57 AM)
I hate the Ricketts, but they did everything right from an ownership perspective. Jerry Reinsdorf and his partners should be absolutely embarrassed that a new ownership group was able to come in, blow everything up, and win a championship so quickly. And yes, I'm aware the Cubs are a completely different animal than the White Sox, but the point here is that Tom hired the smartest baseball guy he could and gave him complete control of the organization. He didn't meddle in the club's direction and say rebuildings are off limit and he didn't force Theo to keep a bunch of people in the organization because of loyalty.

 

I'm not a classic Reinsdorf hater by any means, but he is the single biggest culprit for our recent struggles. His will to win but refusal to back it up with the financial means necessary is a huge problem, resulting in half-ass offseasons that find us routinely coming up short of the underlying goal. More troubling is his unwavering loyalty, which has created an organization filled with group think and a complete lack of accountability. I say this all the time, but the fact that Buddy Bell is still around, let alone has been promoted to assistant GM position is clear evidence of this problem.

 

Unfortunately, it's hard to be optimistic of this organization at the moment. It definitely feels like it's time for a new ownergroup come in and completely clean house. Short of that, hopefully Reinsdorf sees what the Cubs accomplished and finally allows for a rebuild. I know it will be painful for all of us, but I don't think there's an alternative. Another half-ass offseason without clear direction and execution could have grave consequences for us.

 

Great post. Nailed it.

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 11:27 AM)
The JR estate is no doubt in trust, which means capital gains or estate taxes do not apply

 

Huh? That just means it doesn't go to probate court. If Reinsdorf dies, you can be certain that his heirs will be getting a call from the IRS, because his estate has to be well over the exemption amount. Also, capital gains tax would not occur for his heirs unless/until they sold the team, at which point, they would be able to claim their stepped up basis against the sale price.

Edited by Dam8610

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 2, 2016 -> 02:15 PM)
In terms of revenue, yes. But the Cubs have a ton of structured debt from their purchase by the Ricketts.

 

Ricketts is an investment banker specializing in debt management. I'm pretty sure he has things under control

 

The Tribune sold for under $1 billion. Of that, $625 M or so was incurred debt. He had investors jumping on board in 2009. If the debt was a ever a problem they would never have been able to maintain an upper tier payroll

Edited by captain54

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 11:51 AM)
Ricketts is an investment banker specializing in debt management. I'm pretty sure he has things under control

 

The Tribune sold for under $1 billion. Of that, $625 M or so was incurred debt. He had investors jumping on board in 2009. If the debt was a ever a problem they would never have been able to maintain an upper tier payroll

 

Any debt payment is money that isn't able to go towards payroll. It isn't really that complex.

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QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 11:42 AM)
Huh? That just means it doesn't go to probate court. If Reinsdorf dies, you can be certain that his heirs will be getting a call from the IRS, because his estate has to be well over the exemption amount. Also, capital gains tax would not occur for his heirs unless/until they sold the team, at which point, they would be able to claim their stepped up basis against the sale price.

 

From the Chicago Tribune, July 28, 2013

 

 

The team's value has increased so much that any sale would trigger hundreds of millions of dollars in capital gains or estate taxes. Experts said Reinsdorf, who practiced tax law before moving into sports, likely has taken steps to minimize future tax bills by moving at least some of his sports holdings into trusts, a common practice among the wealthy. The McCaskeys and the Wirtzes, who own the Bears and the Blackhawks, respectively, did so decades ago, according to court records.

 

If JR's heirs hold on to the estate, the tax burden would be a fraction of what it would be if they sold outright

 

 

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QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 11:42 AM)
Huh? That just means it doesn't go to probate court. If Reinsdorf dies, you can be certain that his heirs will be getting a call from the IRS, because his estate has to be well over the exemption amount. Also, capital gains tax would not occur for his heirs unless/until they sold the team, at which point, they would be able to claim their stepped up basis against the sale price.

 

From the Chicago Tribune, July 28, 2013

 

 

The team's value has increased so much that any sale would trigger hundreds of millions of dollars in capital gains or estate taxes. Experts said Reinsdorf, who practiced tax law before moving into sports, likely has taken steps to minimize future tax bills by moving at least some of his sports holdings into trusts, a common practice among the wealthy. The McCaskeys and the Wirtzes, who own the Bears and the Blackhawks, respectively, did so decades ago, according to court records.

 

If JR's heirs hold on to the estate, the tax burden would be a fraction of what it would be if they sold outright

 

 

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 12:06 PM)

 

If JR's heirs hold on to the estate,

 

now you got me in tears. I could handle the Cubs winning the WS but not this.

Edited by Hatchetman

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 11:51 AM)
Ricketts is an investment banker specializing in debt management. I'm pretty sure he has things under control

 

The Tribune sold for under $1 billion. Of that, $625 M or so was incurred debt. He had investors jumping on board in 2009. If the debt was a ever a problem they would never have been able to maintain an upper tier payroll

It was a problem. He took on a minority partner. Up until then, the Cubs Sun Times beat writer was claiming the banks suggested Ricketts sell the team.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 11:06 AM)
Saying the Cubs do things the right way and expecting the White Sox to copy what they do is just wrong. At their lowest point, they have $100 million more to play with every year than the White Sox. Theo is great, but he is like Phil Jackson. He didn't put himself in a situation where the odds were going to be so stacked against him. A total rebuild is a lot easier when you still draw almost 3 million a year in the lean years.

Then compare us to the Kansas City Royals and the Cleveland Indians. There you have 3 world series appearances and 1 title coming out of the AL Central in the last 3 years, both of which are from franchises that started off with lower payrolls than us. Those teams accomplishing things while the White Sox did not is no coincidence. It is no coincidence that there are 2 franchises over the last few years that have been described as having the "best farm systems ever" and those 2 franchises won the last 2 world series.

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Well the Cubs' franchise valuation probably just went through the roof. Any sort of debt the Ricketts had to incur to purchase the majority stake is small potatoes at this point.

 

Yea it might weigh them down as far as capping future payrolls but I have to think given the absolute bonanza this will be for the Cub's overall brand the additional revenue streams will largely offset or overcome that.

 

There's no world in which this is good for the Sox, short or long term. Probably 80% of the youth in Chicago, south side, north side or upside down are now burgeoning Cubs fans. The impact is going to be felt for decades.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 3, 2016 -> 02:03 PM)
Then compare us to the Kansas City Royals and the Cleveland Indians. There you have 3 world series appearances and 1 title coming out of the AL Central in the last 3 years, both of which are from franchises that started off with lower payrolls than us. Those teams accomplishing things while the White Sox did not is no coincidence. It is no coincidence that there are 2 franchises over the last few years that have been described as having the "best farm systems ever" and those 2 franchises won the last 2 world series.

Best farm systems ever? KC had to be bad a long, long time and had a lot of misfires in their drafts.

 

Kluber was a trade. Besides Lindor, who on Cleveland is a top line guy they developed?

Edited by Dick Allen

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