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Sox holding talks "daily" on Q

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 11:46 AM)
Right there's the problem - just from guys in the organization already you've listed 5 starters, all of whom we can legitimately expect to be demanding big league innings by the 2nd half of 2018 barring injury. Add in Glasnow...and which guy doesn't get a big league shot? Or which guy goes to the bullpen?

 

If you give me a guy like Keller, fine he gets stuck at A ball this year and he's not arriving until 2019 at the earliest and by then we'll at least have given those top 5 a chance to see if any of them are going to flop, he's down there with Hansen so there's continuing depth building up, but the slash you've already put in there shows the problem. You're not running out a 6 person rotation in 2018, and you're not going to cut one of those guys loose if they struggle in 2017 in their first callup.

If all those guys were to work out to where they deserve to be in a major league rotation, it can't be classified a problem.

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 01:56 PM)
I get it, but there are much worse problems to have.

 

If we actually do reach some point where we have 5 studs in the MLB, and 5 studs in Charlotte, and 5 studs in Birmingham, we can worry.

 

That time is nowhere close to today.

So you'd be overturning your rotation once a year then? Come on man, if Kopech is destroying AAA next year and throwing 100 you're going to be happy with him being put in the bullpen? Hell I could write my post complaining about it already.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 01:56 PM)
If all those guys were to work out to where they deserve to be in a major league rotation, it can't be classified a problem.

Are you willing to put Kopech in the bullpen to give them a couple years to develop at the big league level?

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 11:58 AM)
Are you willing to put Kopech in the bullpen to give them a couple years to develop at the big league level?

Depends on the situation. How many teams use 5 starters an entire season?

 

If the White Sox have too much pitching, they can always trade it.

 

To think they will have 6 prospects all studs, and all deserving being in a major league rotation, and they won't be able to accommodate is zany.

 

I want them to trade Q for positon players, but not because they won't have room for another starter.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 11:35 AM)
I really don't think this matters to me - if he's the 3rd piece, he could be a good player but this still doesn't work out. There can't be more than 1 starting pitcher out of the top 2 guys and I'm skeptical we have room for that.

 

I get there's a clog, but Keller is a high A ball player in 2017. And I'm not sure I'd want our scouts to specifically take players they like less but would fit better in a trade like this. And the third piece is, again, a top 40 prospect, top 20 position player prospect. Get Hayes as well and that's a top 3b prospect.

 

It's hard to find trades where more is sent.

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I may be in the minority here, but I'll happily take a pitcher like Glasnow if I'm also getting two high caliber offensive prospects like Bell & Newman. I don't buy this "you can never have too much pitching" mindset, but I think there's room for one more prospect with TOR potential. The key is you have to get some bats back, even if you don't get an untouchable like Meadows included in the deal.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 11:58 AM)
So you'd be overturning your rotation once a year then? Come on man, if Kopech is destroying AAA next year and throwing 100 you're going to be happy with him being put in the bullpen? Hell I could write my post complaining about it already.

 

Kopech was in A ball last year and has a lot of command refinement. Likely 2017 breakdown with suggested glasnow/keller/newman/4th trade

 

AAA

Giolito

Glasnow

Fullmer

Lopez

Danish

 

AA

Adams

Kopech

Keller

Stevens

 

A

Dunning

 

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 01:01 PM)
Depends on the situation. How many teams use 5 starters an entire season?

 

If the White Sox have too much pitching, they can always trade it.

 

To think they will have 6 prospects all studs, and all deserving being in a major league rotation, and they won't be able to accommodate is zany.

Right after a guy has been in the big leagues for 3 months is, I'd say, a pretty poor time to trade him. You'd be taking what might be the worst performances of his career and having people trade for them based on that. Like trading Fulmer now or Rodon mid-2015 - if you're moving them then teams aren't paying "top 10 in MLB prospect" talent for them. If you're bringing guys up, you need to give them a year or two, sometimes more, to establish themselves.

 

You remain correct they won't all stay there, but if Glasnow and Giolito walk a lot of people and have ERAs in the 4s this year and early next year, are you ready to trade them for a weak return just to clear space for Kopech? Or are you trading Rodon then and starting over? Or are you giving up on one of them and putting them in the bullpen.

 

Basically, if everything works well, you've created a sticky situation for yourself. If any one guy struggles, you're debating whether to give up on a 24 year old to replace him with a 21 year old. That's not how you deal with developing pitchers, that's thinking like these guys are big league regulars.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:03 PM)
I may be in the minority here, but I'll happily take a pitcher like Glasnow if I'm also getting two high caliber offensive prospects like Bell & Newman. I don't buy this "you can never have too much pitching" mindset, but I think there's room for one more prospect with TOR potential. The key is you have to get some bats back, even if you don't get an untouchable like Meadows included in the deal.

 

People are talking about Meadows/bell not being included so Newman being top offensive piece.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 01:03 PM)
I may be in the minority here, but I'll happily take a pitcher like Glasnow if I'm also getting two high caliber offensive prospects like Bell & Newman. I don't buy this "you can never have too much pitching" mindset, but I think there's room for one more prospect with TOR potential. The key is you have to get some bats back, even if you don't get an untouchable like Meadows included in the deal.

I said I'd take one pitcher back - either Glasnow or Keller, but I won't take both back as the top 2 guys even if the 3rd guy is Newman. That's what was written this morning - Glasnow + Keller as the top 2 pieces, so 2 more pitchers as your main return for Q. I can have 1 starter in the top 2, my org just doesn't have the big league playing time for more than that.

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If all those guys were to work out to where they deserve to be in a major league rotation, it can't be classified a problem.

Exactly. If the Sox are running out a rotation of Rodon-Giolito-Kopech-Lopez-Fulmer and all of them are hitting their cielings, or at least playing well enough that the Sox dont think they gain anything by bringing a new stud arm from into the mix, then the Sox are up 10 games in the division. At that point you're looking at possibly dealing those young arms for deadline pieces or letting them break into the majors as lights out bullpen pieces.

 

This is where I agree with Balta though, strengthening the 2019 wave of the pitching Death Star has a lot of benefits because it allows them to be flexible. Having Dunning, Hansen and Keller/Perez all knocking on the door means in early 2019 that if things aren't working for somebody (and at that point it'll become clear who is destined for the bullpen or just cant hack it) there are new arms ready to step in and replace them. But if everything is working they are still valuable assets in myriad ways.

Edited by Con te Giolito

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:07 PM)
Right after a guy has been in the big leagues for 3 months is, I'd say, a pretty poor time to trade him. You'd be taking what might be the worst performances of his career and having people trade for them based on that. Like trading Fulmer now or Rodon mid-2015 - if you're moving them then teams aren't paying "top 10 in MLB prospect" talent for them. If you're bringing guys up, you need to give them a year or two, sometimes more, to establish themselves.

 

You remain correct they won't all stay there, but if Glasnow and Giolito walk a lot of people and have ERAs in the 4s this year and early next year, are you ready to trade them for a weak return just to clear space for Kopech? Or are you trading Rodon then and starting over? Or are you giving up on one of them and putting them in the bullpen.

 

Basically, if everything works well, you've created a sticky situation for yourself. If any one guy struggles, you're debating whether to give up on a 24 year old to replace him with a 21 year old. That's not how you deal with developing pitchers, that's thinking like these guys are big league regulars.

 

Again, if everything works well, you haven't created a sticky situation. There will be always be innings, and the game is changing. The days of 5 starters is going by the boards. Guys at the beginning of their careers are usually on innings limits. Some guy, if needed, could be a guy who goes 3 or 4 innings in the middle. Putting guys in the bullpen is not giving up on them. The game is changing. Bullpens are becoming even more important.

 

How much value did Giolito lose struggling initially? Rodon struggled, how much trade value did he lose?

Edited by Dick Allen

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I f***ing hate the mindset that trading for too much pitching is a bad thing.

 

Do you guys remember how much trash was in the back end of the rotation during the Sale/Q days? Humber, Paulino, Danks, Latos, Noesi, Shields, just to name a few. That is one of the main reasons why those teams were never any good. The back end of the rotation was a black hole.

 

Having a full 5 man rotation that has talent and potential is the real goal here. I'm absolutely okay with the Sox acquiring Glasnow/Keller if they get Bell, Newman, Hayes, etc.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:06 PM)
Kopech was in A ball last year and has a lot of command refinement. Likely 2017 breakdown with suggested glasnow/keller/newman/4th trade

 

AAA

Giolito

Glasnow

Fullmer

Lopez

Danish

 

AA

Adams

Kopech

Keller

Stevens

 

A

Dunning

 

Hansen should be in there with Dunning and possibly at AA.

 

The issue I am seeing with MLB currently is that teams are becoming more reluctant to trade their youth.

 

To think you will move a young pitcher for a young hitter may not work out.

 

 

 

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sigh... all this talk of team composition "RH must have hitters or we'll suck" at the beginning of the rebuild... just seems so reactionary...

 

please RH just get the best package of talent possible, regardless of how much hitting is in the deal.

 

friendly reminder to all that we already have anderson, collins, moncada as part of the rebuild. we'll likely get at least 1 hitter in a quintana trade (pretend it's newman or tucker), and will have several high draft picks in the coming years. not to mention what we have abreu and frazier that could also bring something. perhaps basabe turns into something

 

you can always trade for hitting if need be. we have 2-3 years to build or rotation and lineup for a championship run. there really isn't a point to keeping quintana because he's more valauble to you now as a trade piece, even if it's for pitching, then he is 2 years from now when the sox are competitive again

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QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:20 PM)
I f***ing hate the mindset that trading for too much pitching is a bad thing.

 

Do you guys remember how much trash was in the back end of the rotation during the Sale/Q days? Humber, Paulino, Danks, Latos, Noesi, Shields, just to name a few. That is one of the main reasons why those teams were never any good. The back end of the rotation was a black hole.

 

Having a full 5 man rotation that has talent and potential is the real goal here. I'm absolutely okay with the Sox acquiring Glasnow/Keller if they get Bell, Newman, Hayes, etc.

There is no such thing as too much pitching or too much hitting if the object is to win as much as possible.

 

That said, I think the White Sox have to concentrate on position player acquistions. They have been about as poor as you can be developing them, and will need them. This was a bad offense that lost it's best offensive player. In 2 or 3 or 4 years, attrition will take away a couple more of their better offensive players. If they can't develop them, they are running out of trade chips. They need to use Q to get some hitters someone else developed.

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Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely NOT saying the Sox shouldn't trade for more hitting. I definitely hope they get at least one blue chip bat for Quintana. I'm just saying that getting more pitching in trades isn't a bad thing and rebuilding is about collecting the best possible talent regardless of position or need.

Edited by ChiSoxFanMike

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QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:20 PM)
I f***ing hate the mindset that trading for too much pitching is a bad thing.

 

Do you guys remember how much trash was in the back end of the rotation during the Sale/Q days? Humber, Paulino, Danks, Latos, Noesi, Shields, just to name a few. That is one of the main reasons why those teams were never any good. The back end of the rotation was a black hole.

 

Having a full 5 man rotation that has talent and potential is the real goal here. I'm absolutely okay with the Sox acquiring Glasnow/Keller if they get Bell, Newman, Hayes, etc.

 

Odds are that at least half the guys the Sox have acquired never make the ML rotation. Two years ago there were high hopes for guys like Tyler Danish and Spencer Adams, now those guys are long shots to ever start a ML game.

 

I think Kopech has a high shot of being a late inning guy down the road, but am hopeful he can prove me wrong and be a rotation guy. Scouts have already started to sour on Giolito and started moving him down their rankings boards, but there is a lot of opportunity in front of him yet to regain his form.

 

There is no way the Sox will have too much pitching, when the Sox are ready to compete again they are going to need to make some moves in the trade market and pitching assets can be extremely valuable.

 

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QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:24 PM)
Hansen should be in there with Dunning and possibly at AA.

 

The issue I am seeing with MLB currently is that teams are becoming more reluctant to trade their youth.

 

To think you will move a young pitcher for a young hitter may not work out.

 

I don't know, the Yankees seemed to find a way to inject some youth into their system this summer by giving up two RP's. Teams will give up young talent for players when they are motivated. With the Sox as clear sellers this summer, they may be able to find some teams that are willing to overpay to try and compete in October.

Edited by IowaSoxFan

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Of course you can never have too much pitching. The issue is not that it would be problematic to have too many pitchers. The issue is that there also needs to be a core of good position players. Quintana is our trading chip to acquire a couple of those core players. While it's true that one or more of the pitchers could later be traded for hitting, why take the chance that such a deal may materialize, when they have the chance to acquire them now? The Sox should be putting together a balanced roster of young players, not simply a great pitching staff.

Edited by Lillian

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I don't think it's as much 'too much pitching' as it is 'not enough hitters' in the system. I'm also in the camp that if the Sox can't get a legit bluechip hitting prospect to headline a trade, then I'd rather hold on to Quintana for now.

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QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:20 PM)
I f***ing hate the mindset that trading for too much pitching is a bad thing.

 

Do you guys remember how much trash was in the back end of the rotation during the Sale/Q days? Humber, Paulino, Danks, Latos, Noesi, Shields, just to name a few. That is one of the main reasons why those teams were never any good. The back end of the rotation was a black hole.

 

Having a full 5 man rotation that has talent and potential is the real goal here. I'm absolutely okay with the Sox acquiring Glasnow/Keller if they get Bell, Newman, Hayes, etc.

 

Your feeling of never having too much pitching isn't invalid...except this time.

 

If you're lucky, these guys pan out. Hard to imagine any are as dominant as Sale, but hopefully they are. Both Sale and Q were top 10 WAR arms, which has been mentioned over and over. WAR isn't the end-all and be-all, but for the sake of discussion that is what you're shooting for.

 

So lets say two of them do. You're in a worse situation than we were the last several years. Because once Abreu/Frazier/etc are gone and Eaton already is - you've replaced it with one guy, Moncada.

 

Now I'm sure you're thinking that this rotation will be deeper but that still doesn't solve the fundamental problem of this organization, which is their inability to develop hitting.

 

You needed hitting prospects. Fine. You maxed out on arms, and that has tremendous potential value, but my god man. You desperately need star-power hitting. And advanced hitting at that. Not projects like Basabe.

 

Sit and point your finger at the lack of success from the guys you mentioned, but it won't mean s*** when we still cannot score runs. Gonzalez pitched well last season. So you had 4 good to great starters last season - with much better hitting than what 2018-2019 projects to be.

 

This is your last big bullet and you need hitting. End of story. If you settle for more arms because its the best value, so be it, but Hahn better know something we don't about out payroll for those years and you better be spending it on offense because you cannot put together a team with 10 starters. Sorry bud - not how baseball works.

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jan 9, 2017 -> 12:30 PM)
Odds are that at least half the guys the Sox have acquired never make the ML rotation. Two years ago there were high hopes for guys like Tyler Danish and Spencer Adams, now those guys are long shots to ever start a ML game.

 

I think Kopech has a high shot of being a late inning guy down the road, but am hopeful he can prove me wrong and be a rotation guy. Scouts have already started to sour on Giolito and started moving him down their rankings boards, but there is a lot of opportunity in front of him yet to regain his form.

 

There is no way the Sox will have too much pitching, when the Sox are ready to compete again they are going to need to make some moves in the trade market and pitching assets can be extremely valuable.

 

It is also really obvious that not all position players will hit. Talking about guys like Collins, Moncada, Basabe, etc is nice, but some of those guys will bust as well. We need nine position players to fill a starting line up. We need just as many position players to fill out a roster as we do pitchers.

 

If we want to learn one lesson from what the Cubs did it shouldn't be that these things are fail safe, it is that young position players are getting harder and harder to find to fill a roster with. It should also be completely obvious from the last 10 years where we spent year after year trying to find a 2B or a 3B, or a C, or OF's that it isn't as easy as people seem to think it is. Otherwise we wouldn't have failed to do it for the last 10 years.

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It couldn't seem more obvious that we need to get positional player talent back. We can't just assume guys like Basabe will succeed or even that Anderson is going to continue to do well (see Beckham's first year). Right now, there are two guys I think we can count on to produce - Collins and Moncada (and even they are not proven). Aside from that, 7 other positions need to be filled. We are pretty set on pitching prospects at this point. Need a position player headliner or don't trade Quintana because we have him for 4 more years.

 

Cubs went all in on position player talent. Got lucky w/ Arrieta, and pretty pretty much bought the rest of their staff...

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