Teams have upped their offers in Q derby in the last week

[Panerista]

If this is the case, then all the more reason to keep Q. If the others blow out their arms the sox will need Q if they are going to be any good in 2 years.

Yeah, but the piece you bolded is nonsense and highly unlikely to happen.

[Baron]

I totally sympathize with the get it done crowd. We all want to rip the bandaid off and start over with all the prospects ASAP. It sucks waiting for Christmas when you're a kid too.

 

Trust in Santa Hahn- he's been marvelous.

 

 

 

Has nothing to do with Christmas or getting the prospects ASAP. For me it's about overplaying his hand and having the other teams call your bluff that I'm worried about.

[Bob Sacamano]

Definitely have to disagree with you. Like ptatc was saying, there is no reason for the Sox to have a firm "we have to be good again by X date". Rebuilds do not have a timetable, rather you acquire as many good assets as you can and hope they come together at a certain point. Keeping Q just in case Sox are good in 2019 is probably the wrong mindset. There is simply no way to expect when they could contend again, especially so early in the rebuild

 

Agreed 100%. Putting a timetable on it of say 2-3 years has a better chance of disappointing us than not.

[beck72]

No one cares about the W-L stat for pitchers, but the rest I agree with.

It was an aside comment not an argument.

[ptatc]

Yeah, but the piece you bolded is nonsense and highly unlikely to happen.

I agree. That is why I responded to the poster's idea that they shouldn't wait to trade Q because if Giolito, Kopech and Lopez could blow out their arms and keeping Q would be wasteful.

[ChiSox59]

Has nothing to do with Christmas or getting the prospects ASAP. For me it's about overplaying his hand and having the other teams call your bluff that I'm worried about.

 

Its hard to overplay your hand when you have such a limited group of teams involved in the discussions with the assets you'd legitimately want as a position player centerpiece. We know the names - they've been discussed at length. None of those guys are available. By all indications the "untouchables" have been just that - outside of Moncada. Quintana is the type of pitcher that is going to be in demand by all 29 teams, literally at all time, unless something drastically changes (injury, performance). Sure, the market appears to be in the such a good position that you can't pass up moving Q while the iron is hot, but RH has set the market so high, it is possible no one involved in the talks is going to match that's price right now.

 

So that brings you to where we appear to be today. Teams offering nice packages, but nothing that makes you blush. Top tier guys being offer appear to be pitchers. Tucker perhaps the best name we've heard being available (rumored Archer offer). So it seems you, and some other people, are ok with grabbing a Tucker, Martes + or Glasgow + Newman + but to me, and I think at least a good faction of others that think that is a short sighted move. No teams involved in the discussions appear to be desperate enough, and until that happens, you hold. I've been saying this since November with regard to Q (and Sale), and to this point, our fearless leader has executed. He has said this will take time, and thankfully Q's contrast allows us that flexibility.

 

The time will likely come. Whether its this winter or not. But right now the offers aren't there or the deal would have been made. Someone will budge. Someone will give up a sure fire talent. This is a trade that the White Sox need to hit on.

Edited January 19, 2017 by ChiSox59

[CyAcosta41]

Has nothing to do with Christmas or getting the prospects ASAP. For me it's about overplaying his hand and having the other teams call your bluff that I'm worried about.

 

You're not alone -- others have mentioned worrying about Rick overplaying his hand.

 

I don't get the concern. At least I don't get it quite yet.

 

It's 18-January; we've got roughly 75 days until the Sox open up on 3-April.

 

Other than rumor, speculation, and possibly team spread leaks, we've got exactly zero hard evidence of who has offered what. But what we know for a certainty is that Q is currently the top available arm by far -- durable, consistent, professional, and by all of the generally accepted metrics a top 10-20 starter for the past four years in ALL OF BASEBALL. If that wasn't enough, he's under control for four years on an absolutely killer contract that provides near unheard of surplus value.

 

Why the concern that Rick is OVERplaying his hand (when it's only 18-January)? Why not give the 2016/2017 version of Rick Hahn ... the dude who has shown his bona fides this year ... the guy who is clearly having an MVP offseason ... the benefit of the doubt? For the time being, why not assume that Rick Hahn is simply PLAYING his hand (not overplaying it ... playing it intelligently and with skill)?

 

For the moment and arguably through the end of spring training, the Sox have ALL the leverage. Given what has transpired thus far this offseason, why take the risk of leaving "money on the table" by accepting the best deal now when the best deal later can very well be superior. I understand some concerns of a long-term hold and an overall shift in leverage when other top pitchers are available, but it sure looks like through 3-April there is one top dog, and we've got him. At worse, some close variation of deals that are available now will still be available on the last day of spring training (or the first day of spring training, take your pick). But Rick has no idea whether another 30-75 days of waiting will ratchet up the pressure on at least one potential trade partner such that they lap the field.

 

I think he's playing his cards masterfully!

[Jerksticks]

You're not alone -- others have mentioned worrying about Rick overplaying his hand.

 

I don't get the concern. At least I don't get it quite yet.

 

It's 18-January; we've got roughly 75 days until the Sox open up on 3-April.

 

Other than rumor, speculation, and possibly team spread leaks, we've got exactly zero hard evidence of who has offered what. But what we know for a certainty is that Q is currently the top available arm by far -- durable, consistent, professional, and by all of the generally accepted metrics a top 10-20 starter for the past four years in ALL OF BASEBALL. If that wasn't enough, he's under control for four years on an absolutely killer contract that provides near unheard of surplus value.

 

Why the concern that Rick is OVERplaying his hand (when it's only 18-January)? Why not give the 2016/2017 version of Rick Hahn ... the dude who has shown his bona fides this year ... the guy who is clearly having an MVP offseason ... the benefit of the doubt? For the time being, why not assume that Rick Hahn is simply PLAYING his hand (not overplaying it ... playing it intelligently and with skill)?

 

For the moment and arguably through the end of spring training, the Sox have ALL the leverage. Given what has transpired thus far this offseason, why take the risk of leaving "money on the table" by accepting the best deal now when the best deal later can very well be superior. I understand some concerns of a long-term hold and an overall shift in leverage when other top pitchers are available, but it sure looks like through 3-April there is one top dog, and we've got him. At worse, some close variation of deals that are available now will still be available on the last day of spring training (or the first day of spring training, take your pick). But Rick has no idea whether another 30-75 days of waiting will ratchet up the pressure on at least one potential trade partner such that they lap the field.

 

I think he's playing his cards masterfully!

Spot on. The overplaying his hand theory should be reconsidered. That assumes Rick is out there shopping Q like he NEEDS to trade him, like he's sitting at the poker table. Rick is not sitting at the poker table. Rick hosts poker night and a seat at his table is expensive. The other GMs are playing cards, not Rick. Nowhere has Rick said "I'm trying to trade Quintana to complete my rebuild." You're all acting like he has- think about that. Rick doesn't have to trade Q. Thankfully he has a big set of balls.

 

 

[caulfield12]

If Q was a former first round draft pick from an SEC school instead of coming from Colombia as a FA...and hadn't already been let go by two teams, and didn't have that singular non-steroids PED's, this would be a SLIGHTLY easier trade to make.

 

Cashman has to have a part of him that's unwilling to be burned twice with Q. Once was bad enough.

 

And let's be honest, there are still at least half the GM's in baseball who PERCEIVE Gray and Archer to have the potential to bounce back as aces...they've both been TOR guys in the past...and Q is just never going to be the "sexy" guy who lights up radar guns or has that Sale/Randy Johnson funky wind-up, Johan Santana Change, Liriano slider or Glavine/Buehrle control. He's a combination of all of those guys, with Lester being the best parallel.

 

The other problem is that he hasn't ever had the opportunity to perform in post-season or in front of a rotation (now with Sale gone)...so there are still a few question marks about him in the industry. Undoubtedly, he's a better fit for a team like the Astros that is constructing an above-average offense, as he's the kind of guy who typically gives up a couple of runs, maybe three, but isn't a consistent threat from start to start to go on a run of consecutive shutouts (seemed like 2012 was the year he really did this over a long run of starts). But he definitely keeps an offense within striking distance almost every time out there.

 

 

And all that said, trading the same or even more talent for Gray/Archer is fraught with risk for those GM's with itchy trigger fingers.

Edited January 19, 2017 by caulfield12

[Baron]

You're not alone -- others have mentioned worrying about Rick overplaying his hand.

 

I don't get the concern. At least I don't get it quite yet.

 

It's 18-January; we've got roughly 75 days until the Sox open up on 3-April.

 

Other than rumor, speculation, and possibly team spread leaks, we've got exactly zero hard evidence of who has offered what. But what we know for a certainty is that Q is currently the top available arm by far -- durable, consistent, professional, and by all of the generally accepted metrics a top 10-20 starter for the past four years in ALL OF BASEBALL. If that wasn't enough, he's under control for four years on an absolutely killer contract that provides near unheard of surplus value.

 

Why the concern that Rick is OVERplaying his hand (when it's only 18-January)? Why not give the 2016/2017 version of Rick Hahn ... the dude who has shown his bona fides this year ... the guy who is clearly having an MVP offseason ... the benefit of the doubt? For the time being, why not assume that Rick Hahn is simply PLAYING his hand (not overplaying it ... playing it intelligently and with skill)?

 

For the moment and arguably through the end of spring training, the Sox have ALL the leverage. Given what has transpired thus far this offseason, why take the risk of leaving "money on the table" by accepting the best deal now when the best deal later can very well be superior. I understand some concerns of a long-term hold and an overall shift in leverage when other top pitchers are available, but it sure looks like through 3-April there is one top dog, and we've got him. At worse, some close variation of deals that are available now will still be available on the last day of spring training (or the first day of spring training, take your pick). But Rick has no idea whether another 30-75 days of waiting will ratchet up the pressure on at least one potential trade partner such that they lap the field.

 

I think he's playing his cards masterfully!

 

Well one I dont have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Frankly my trust in him has gone down considerably even after the very good offseason.

 

The rest doesnt apply to me at all. All I've been talking about is the deadline and next offseason. I'm not making a fuss about him not being traded today. But if we're walking into the season with him I think my opinion on that is fairly clear.

 

 

 

[turnin' two]

Not only is Q remarkable consistent year to year, but also start to start. Last year he gave up 2 or fewer runs in 21 starts. The previous year he had 19 such starts. In 2014 it was 20. He is the definition of "gives your team a chance to win".

 

For comparison, Sale had 18 last year, 19 in 2015 and and 18 in 2014. Not trying to say that Q is better, as Sale routinely goes deeper into games, and if I had looked at 1 ER or less Sale would have been better, but Quintana gives a team as good a chance to log a W as anyone. He is not just an "innings eater", he is a damn good pitcher (I know everyone here knows that and no one is discounting his talent. Just ranting) There is no way that Hahn should panic and reduce his asking price.

 

Just for fun, last year's Cy Young winners: Porcello had 16 starts of that quality and Scherzer had 23 (obvious advantage being in the NL)

 

I also know this is a very arbitrary way to look at this, I thought it was just a way to show just how good, effective and consistent Quintana is from start to start. This is not any measure to really use for anything, I was just looking at his game logs and noticed it so I decided to look at some others.

[striker]

If you want to scout the Astros more...

https://twitter.com/BaseballAmerica/status/...813247561109504

 

@BaseballAmerica

#Top10Prospects Podcast: @jjcoop36 and @johnmanuelba wrap up the AL by talking @astros 🎧 bba.am/9GUpWl

This was a great podcast.

1. Astros have a lot of prospect depth. Manuel and Cooper talked about how the Sox could go after quantity (5-6 prospects) rather than quality (top 2 +).

2. This rebuilding has me scoping out every team's prospects. It's nuts how much depth some of these organizations have. My first thought is how inept the Sox front office is, but the Astros, and some of these other organizations with depth, seem to be exceptions to the norm.

[turnin' two]

The Marlins just traded 3 of their top 15 prospects, including their number 2 for Dan Straily. There is no way Hahn should lower his demands for Quintana.

[oneofthemikes]

The Marlins just traded 3 of their top 15 prospects, including their number 2 for Dan Straily. There is no way Hahn should lower his demands for Quintana.

 

Marlins system is also hot garbage.

[steveno89]

The Marlins just traded 3 of their top 15 prospects, including their number 2 for Dan Straily. There is no way Hahn should lower his demands for Quintana.

 

Big difference between the Marlins bottom 5 farm system and the Pirates/Yankees/Astros/Braves farms in quality

 

The Marlins #2 might not crack the top ten in those other systems

[turnin' two]

Marlins system is also hot garbage.

 

 

Yeah, but it is Dan Straily.

[steveno89]

Yeah, but it is Dan Straily.

 

Straily and Quintana are not comparable whatsoever in terms of trade value

 

One is a fringy 5th starter, the other is a consistent top 20 mlb starting pitcher

 

 

[Dick Allen]

If you take Levine at face value, teams have recently upped their offers, so apparently not trading him previously was pretty wise.

[steveno89]

If you take Levine at face value, teams have recently upped their offers, so apparently not trading him previously was pretty wise.

 

I also don't buy the Sonny Gray and Chris Archer rumors for the Astros. Frankly, Quintana is their only choice left this offseason if they want to acquire a TOR starter.

 

A's aren't selling low on Gray and the Rays are not dealing 5 years of Archer for anything less than a monster haul.

[Kyyle23]

This thread is like a bunch of people standing outside the building where the World Series of Poker is happening, and people are complaining about Phil Hellmuths moves without even knowing what is happening inside

[Dick Allen]

I also don't buy the Sonny Gray and Chris Archer rumors for the Astros. Frankly, Quintana is their only choice left this offseason if they want to acquire a TOR starter.

 

A's aren't selling low on Gray and the Rays are not dealing 5 years of Archer for anything less than a monster haul.

Plus the Rays already dumped a pitcher. They don't appear to be going into full rebuild mode. It's Q or bust for these guys. At the deadline if he isn't traded yet, chances are he is the best option. Next winter, Arrieta is a free agent, maybe Tanaka and a 33 year old Cueto. Given Q's contract, do you want to give up prospects or an extra $100 million? He still is looking good.

 

Getting Q for 4 years offsets a good portion of the 6 years of control for a top prospect. The White Sox should be asking for the moon because eventually some team will pay it.

[Bob Sacamano]

Plus the Rays already dumped a pitcher. They don't appear to be going into full rebuild mode. It's Q or bust for these guys. At the deadline if he isn't traded yet, chances are he is the best option. Next winter, Arrieta is a free agent, maybe Tanaka and a 33 year old Cueto. Given Q's contract, do you want to give up prospects or an extra $100 million? He still is looking good.

 

Getting Q for 4 years offsets a good portion of the 6 years of control for a top prospect. The White Sox should be asking for the moon because eventually some team will pay it.

 

The Rays actually really don't look too bad IMO. Probably not good enough to win division or a wild card spot but can win some games. They should be better than us which is good for when we play them head-to-head and wanting a high draft spot.

[steveno89]

This thread is like a bunch of people standing outside the building where the World Series of Poker is happening, and people are complaining about Phil Hellmuths moves without even knowing what is happening inside

 

Very true

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2687747...culation/page/5

 

This is from bleacher report today and suggests a Pirates offer of: Meadows + Glasnow + Diaz might work for both sides

 

It suggests the White Sox will ask for Meadows + Glasnow + Keller, but the Pirates would be unwilling to part with that much. They could offer the lower tier Diaz instead to round out the package and fill in a platoon catcher option for the Sox.

 

I'd love a Meadows + Glasnow + Newman deal

[bmags]

Yeah, but it is Dan Straily.

 

I think all that it is is an insight into what a possible Miguel Gonzalez trade looked like.

[Baron]

Luis Castillo is good. Everyone else in that deal is not. Only thing is he's 24 and just finished AA. Marlins system is garbage.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Baron