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Teams have upped their offers in Q derby in the last week

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QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:12 PM)
Of course they've talked to other teams. There's no GM in baseball that's just going to turn off his phone and not listen to offers but that doesn't mean they're actively trying to trade them either. I'm not going to pretend to know what value these guys have but I'm sure Dave, Todd and Jose at least have some value especially if we're willing to pick up a bit of the tab on some of these guys. And once again, I'm not ready to buy into the bad apple theory yet but so far that is all that has happened.

 

Jones is really the only guy I'm surprised that we haven't heard more smoke on. The market was flooded with RH power bats, and both Frazier and Jose are coming off down years. Robertson wasn't great last year. All three of those guys have a chance to build their value back up with a strong first half of '17. I really don't get why Jones hasn't had more smoke though.

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The Sox could trade Q, Frazier, Abreu and Jones if they wanted to. Robertson could've been included in the Eaton deal to who-knows what end. Melky is tougher to move, but I think he could be a salary dump if the Sox were truly motivated to tear down.

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I think for most of our guys, the trade deadline simply makes more sense. Abreu, Frazier, & Robertson are all coming off dissapointing seasons. So you can either sell low on these guys right now or hope for bounce-backs & potentially greater returns come July. Gonzalez had a nice season, but teams probably need to see those same results over a longer period of time before offering something of value. Melky really doesn't offer much surplus value and there were somewhat comparable players available in free agency for just money. Hopefily his value will go up closer to the deadline when his salary comes down and less options are out there. And finally you have Jones, who simply might be worth more in July simply because relievers typically go for more at the deadline. If he can somehow get some save opportunities before July 31st, that only helps his trade value.

 

Honestly, the only guy that really surprises me still being here is Quintana.

 

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QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:22 PM)
The Sox could trade Q, Frazier, Abreu and Jones if they wanted to. Robertson could've been included in the Eaton deal to who-knows what end. Melky is tougher to move, but I think he could be a salary dump if the Sox were truly motivated to tear down.

 

 

If the offers aren't good though, why wouldn't they hold right now? Frazier can be traded to a team that loses a power hitter in season. Same scenario with Robertson and Melky. I don't think Abreu is going anywhere and Jones would bring back a haul. Dumping these guys just to do so doesn't make sense until mid-season or so with the free agents.

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QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:22 PM)
The Sox could trade Q, Frazier, Abreu and Jones if they wanted to. Robertson could've been included in the Eaton deal to who-knows what end. Melky is tougher to move, but I think he could be a salary dump if the Sox were truly motivated to tear down.

But why sell low on these guys? I don't get your logic here. I'm actually glad they're not dumping these guys for salary relief.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:25 PM)
But why sell low on these guys? I don't get your logic here. I'm actually glad they're not dumping these guys for salary relief.

I'm not sure Frazier or Abreu ever get a ton higher. I can see holding onto Jose until the deadline in hopes he has a better start to the season. I'd move Frazier and Robertson if the deal is right.

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But why sell low on these guys? I don't get your logic here. I'm actually glad they're not dumping these guys for salary relief.

Its not selling low its just selling. Todd Frazier and Melky Cabrera are never going to be super hot commodities, you just get rid of them to save some money and maybe get back something.

 

Everyone likes to talk a big game about moving in a new direction but when it comes to actually trading these guys suddenly the Sox are moving a bunch of MVP's that they "MUST GET VALUE" for. I dont get it, the further Todd Frazier and David Robertson are from this roster the better and that starts now.

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QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:27 PM)
I'm not sure Frazier or Abreu ever get a ton higher. I can see holding onto Jose until the deadline in hopes he has a better start to the season. I'd move Frazier and Robertson if the deal is right.

Why don't you think Frazier's value could get much higher? Right now, there are several teams will questionable 3B situations that have decided they can't commit the money or prospects to improve. With even a slight bounce-back, Frazier's value could skyrocket come July. I feel like people are really selling him short here.

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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:21 PM)
Jones is really the only guy I'm surprised that we haven't heard more smoke on. The market was flooded with RH power bats, and both Frazier and Jose are coming off down years. Robertson wasn't great last year. All three of those guys have a chance to build their value back up with a strong first half of '17. I really don't get why Jones hasn't had more smoke though.

 

Totally agree with this. I am really curious why nothing has been said about him.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:34 PM)
Why don't you think Frazier's value could get much higher? Right now, there are several teams will questionable 3B situations that have decided they can't commit the money or prospects to improve. With even a slight bounce-back, Frazier's value could skyrocket come July. I feel like people are really selling him short here.

 

If he were to improve his average and patience back to normal career levels, as well as his fielding numbers, he could have some pretty decent trade value again.

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Totally agree with this. I am really curious why nothing has been said about him.

Over 30 and injury history, he's only pitched 90 innings since 2013 and not all of those innings have been great.

 

Andrew Miller and Aroldis Chapman he is not, though I'm sure the Sox are asking for those types of deals for him.

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If he were to improve his average and patience back to normal career levels, as well as his fielding numbers, he could have some pretty decent trade value again.

"If he gets good at baseball again"

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QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:33 PM)
Its not selling low its just selling. Todd Frazier and Melky Cabrera are never going to be super hot commodities, you just get rid of them to save some money and maybe get back something.

 

Everyone likes to talk a big game about moving in a new direction but when it comes to actually trading these guys suddenly the Sox are moving a bunch of MVP's that they "MUST GET VALUE" for. I dont get it, the further Todd Frazier and David Robertson are from this roster the better and that starts now.

100% disagree with you, especially on Frazier & Robertson. They could both be substantially more valuable come July. The only guy you can really make a case for dumping right now is Melky. And honestly, I don't even think a team would take on his entire salary right now. Might as well wait and see how he performs in a contract year if that's the case.

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QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:37 PM)
Over 30 and injury history, he's only pitched 90 innings since 2013 and not all of those innings have been great.

 

Andrew Miller and Aroldis Chapman he is not, though I'm sure the Sox are asking for those types of deals for him.

 

Injury history doesn't matter as much as it used to. Look at guys like Rich Hill and Brett Anderson.

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QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:38 PM)
"If he gets good at baseball again"

 

Which is a better return than nothing, which is what you would get for him now.

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If by some miracle all these over-30 useless players the Sox have turn their careers around in dramatic fashion yes I'm sure they will all be easy to trade

 

When it was the deadline last year waiting until the offseason was a better move, now that its the offseason waiting until the deadline is the right idea. Its just a circular path of excuses for the front office, and now that they are on the verge of doing a halfhearted rebuild everything said last July is being contradicted to explain why "oh, they're just waiting for the right deal". The right deal for Robertson and Melky is any deal where the Sox aren't eating all of their money. If they wait on Robertson (who is absolutely terrible) they risk him becoming just a $20m anchor that has to be given a roster spot for two more season. Melky is less risky because he just walks for nothing in a year, but god at least get SOMETHING for him. Same goes for Frazier. Failing to get full value on these guys now isn't that important. What is important is for their positions to be freed up for young players to break in and get some PA's and the money that would've gone to them can be invested elsewhere in the org.

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Which is a better return than nothing, which is what you would get for him now.

Getting nothing is better than spending 600 PA's on him to suck while Tyler Saladino has to wallow needlessly in a utility role on a mediocre 4th place team because Frazier is the incumbent at 3rd.

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QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 01:27 PM)
I'm not sure Frazier or Abreu ever get a ton higher. I can see holding onto Jose until the deadline in hopes he has a better start to the season. I'd move Frazier and Robertson if the deal is right.

 

Um... there is almost no market whatsoever right now for a guy that derives a good portion of his value from a) the fact that he plays 3b and b) the fact that he plays it at a pretty solid level defensively. This obviously can, and likely will, change as the season goes on, as these thigns do every single season; Injuries, teams playing well that aren't really sure whether they will be a contender right now who end up being one as the season goes on (there are always additional buyers at the deadline than before the season, since the advent of the second wild card, as well as more buyers than sellers at deadline); Contenders/Quasi-contenders who think their current solutions at 3b, while not quite as good as Frazier, can be good enough that the upgrade Frazier represents isn't worth paying much in prospects and the additional $ of Frazier's contract, but their current 3bs don't ultimately end up performing to the high end of their range of possible outcomes (Also, some of these teams, like Red Sox and Mets, have even extra incentive not to trade for Frazier, since they are paying their inferror current 3bs a ton of money whether those guys play for them or not, so they may as well see if they can somehow get them back to their former level, even if it's not likely). Makes no sense to deal Frazier right now.

 

By contrast, there certainly is a market for Abreu right now. I've heard some people say the market is high for him or the market is low, but I guess that depends on what you were expecting. A good way to gather a more precise idea of what that current market is, would be to look at similar types of players who were FAs this offseason, like Encarnacion and Trumbo, look at the $ they got, the fact that the teams that signed them had to sacrifice a 1st rounder for him (even Baltimore sacrificed the mid-20s 1st rounder they'd have had if someone else signed Trumbo), Abreu's age and production relative to them (somewhere in between the 2), Abreu's salary for the next 3 years, the fact that Abreu is at less of a risk of being paid for production he doesn't actually give you than those two guys (i.e. he could end up making less than 1/both of them, he could end up making more, but whereas Trumbo and Encarnacion are guaranteed to make whatever they will regardless of their production, Abreu's salary will at least somewhat correlate to his production, since it will be determined via arbitration), and come up with wthe prospect-value relative to the first round picks forgone by the Indians and Orioles, that you think Abreu would command.

 

Having said that, even though there is a market for Abreu's services right now, I think the market will be far better at the deadline. There are way to many factors to say with certainty that any player's value will definitely go either up/down going forward (all of which those in the silly "we definitely must trade Quintana right now, because there is no possible way that his value gets any better or even stays the same going forward"-camp seem to miss), but it would seem to me that everything points to the most likely range of scenarios being at best varying levels of potential value-increase between now and the deadline for Abreu, and at worst him maintaining his current value between now and the deadline.

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QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:52 PM)
Getting nothing is better than spending 600 PA's on him to suck while Tyler Saladino has to wallow needlessly in a utility role on a mediocre 4th place team because Frazier is the incumbent at 3rd.

 

The obsession with Tyler Saladino is reaching unhealthy proportions. Going off of your usage of the word "mediocre" that is exactly what Tyler Saladino would be as a stater, at best. That is also assuming he can even stay healthy for 600 PAs. It truly is back up quarterback syndrome going on here.

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QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:51 PM)
If by some miracle all these over-30 useless players the Sox have turn their careers around in dramatic fashion yes I'm sure they will all be easy to trade

 

When it was the deadline last year waiting until the offseason was a better move, now that its the offseason waiting until the deadline is the right idea. Its just a circular path of excuses for the front office, and now that they are on the verge of doing a halfhearted rebuild everything said last July is being contradicted to explain why "oh, they're just waiting for the right deal". The right deal for Robertson and Melky is any deal where the Sox aren't eating all of their money. If they wait on Robertson (who is absolutely terrible) they risk him becoming just a $20m anchor that has to be given a roster spot for two more season. Melky is less risky because he just walks for nothing in a year, but god at least get SOMETHING for him. Same goes for Frazier. Failing to get full value on these guys now isn't that important. What is important is for their positions to be freed up for young players to break in and get some PA's and the money that would've gone to them can be invested elsewhere in the org.

 

This kind of logic would lead to a GM just getting killed in the trade market. To some extent there has to be some patience. Panic just isn't a good quality for a GM to have.

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This kind of logic would lead to a GM just getting killed in the trade market. To some extent there has to be some patience. Panic just isn't a good quality for a GM to have.

Honestly there is only one org where a GM responsible for this mess would be in charge of cleaning it up and its the White Sox. Hahn has been getting killed in the trade market pretty much non stop since arriving here.

 

edit- I should say since arriving in his new role

Edited by Con te Giolito

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:58 PM)
The obsession with Tyler Saladino is reaching unhealthy proportions. Going off of your usage of the word "mediocre" that is exactly what Tyler Saladino would be as a stater, at best. That is also assuming he can even stay healthy for 600 PAs. It truly is back up quarterback syndrome going on here.

Amen. More at bats would just reveal his flaws. He's gonna be 28 in July... not a lot of untapped potential.

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QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 11:07 AM)
Honestly there is only one org where a GM responsible for this mess would be in charge of cleaning it up and its the White Sox. Hahn has been getting killed in the trade market pretty much non stop since arriving here.

 

edit- I should say since arriving in his new role

 

the negative rhetoric coming from you at this point is just ridiculous. by all accounts, RH has done incredibly well in the trade market since the team changed directives to sell. when you're going for it, you trade youth. the only trade that's been terrible is the shields trade, but it's because shields sucked and tatis has turned into something promising. but again this was under a different directive from management, and wasn't us selling off the farm as it was a long shot low minors prospect for a veteran that happened to suck royally

 

the idea that RH should just take what he can get for frazier, abreu, etc is awful. this is precisely what happened when KW would sell off pieces and these trades almost always yield little to nothing of consequence. Your argument that we should do it just so we can suck harder is wrong for 2 reasons: 1) youre just accepting lesser returns and not leveraging your position 2) there's no guarantee it helps you return to competitiveness faster. just look at the A's and Rays, they've been terrible for multiple years now and sell off guys all the time. neither has a strong farm nor are getting the kind of draft picks that are getting them closer to being competitive.

 

everyone just needs to be patient. a rebuild doesnt happen overnight, and whining about guys not being trading yet is just so tiresome to constantly read. it's like nothing will make you happy...

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