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Sox send Frazier/DRob/Kahnle to NY ~ Rutherford/Clarkin/Clippard/Polo

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IamShack what would you have to receive in order to trade Avi? Just wondering as he never put all together until this year much like Kahnle but he is younger and a bat. I like the return as Rutherford is a young potential impact OF, I trust the organization when it comes to pitchers for the most part. Tito's numbers are pretty great right now as a throw in type.

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Based on the amount of "We got screwed!" I'm seeing both here and on the Yankee forums, I'm going to say that this is actually a very even trade. I thought Polo was pretty underwhelming when I first saw the deal come through, but after seeing his numbers and reading up on him a bit I like him more and more. That's not to say that he's going to make a major impact on the next great Sox team, but I like him more than the guys in the back half of the Q deal.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:33 AM)
Uh nobody thinks that he sucks.

 

But, as a fan, I have seen the sox get screwed by a dominant jesse crain losing his arm, nate jones losing his arm, robertson blowing 8 run leads last year, etc.

 

You would be much better off constantly trading overperforming relief pitchers like Kahnle than trusting that they will continue their performance. I respect that system because it will be right more often than not.

 

You want to bet that Kahnle will be in the "not", and that's a bet I don't want to take. How many relief pitchers have been good for more than 3 years?

 

Spot on. Exactly my line of thinking as well.

 

What more can we expect if Kahnle keeps this up? Rutherford is a good few months away from being considered untouchable. He's not an easy player to part with due to his potential.

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:59 AM)
There is nothing "depreciating" about Kahnle.

 

Kahnle is like a penny stock that took off and could be on its way to blue chip status, but is also one bad quarterly earnings report from being back in the toilet. Sell now, while you're getting value at all.

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Kenny didn't make many trades for prospects, but his trade of F Garcia for Gio and Floyd was brilliant.

But subsequently, he moved Swisher for obvious AAAA players and E Jackson for very little at the deadline. I have no idea what either of those were about.

Hahn has done an overall good job of trading for prospects (not so much for veterans). Now let's see if he can build a major league team.

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QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:11 AM)
Spot on. Exactly my line of thinking as well.

 

What more can we expect if Kahnle keeps this up? Rutherford is a good few months away from being considered untouchable. He's not an easy player to part with due to his potential.

 

I think that is the fallacy of prospects in baseball. Your take on Kahnle who is having a breakout year backed by improvement in stuff - he's a few bad months away from being worthless. Then for Rutherford who is off to a relatively slow start in Low A - he's a few good months away from being untouchable.

 

Right, because historical trends tells us players in midst of breakout aren't continue to sustain performance, while prospects are very much likely going to pan out?

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:22 AM)
, he moved Swisher for obvious AAAA players

He was doing drugs in the locker room, got benched for a corpse and hit .219. The fact they got a living breathing human for him was impressive. The problem was acquiring him to begin with.

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QUOTE (oneofthemikes @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:04 AM)
Based on the amount of "We got screwed!" I'm seeing both here and on the Yankee forums, I'm going to say that this is actually a very even trade. I thought Polo was pretty underwhelming when I first saw the deal come through, but after seeing his numbers and reading up on him a bit I like him more and more. That's not to say that he's going to make a major impact on the next great Sox team, but I like him more than the guys in the back half of the Q deal.

 

Polo can actually hit fairly well and does have very good speed. I think he ends up playing a role in the majors at some point, unlike Flete or Rose.

 

 

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Hahn has been getting good players in return in his deals, so I have been waiting for the deal where the unrealistic returns finally caught up, and I guess we have found it.

 

I am floored that there are people who don't like this. This was a very creative deal and I can't believe we got a prospect with as much potential as Rutherford.

 

I guess this is what happens when names like Robles and Gleyber start getting thrown around with no real basis in reality.

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QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:27 AM)
Disappointed that we didn't get a better prospect than Polo or an additional lottery ticket piece, but getting Rutherford was huge. I'd rather get a guy like him than 2 B prospects.

 

I understand some of the angst here, but I do think the market is tougher on relievers this year (just look at the Nationals trade) for whatever reason.

 

Yah, but I'd take Luzardo over anyone not named Rutherford in our deal.

 

The trade is fine. I'm not super excited about it, but not mad either. Add Florial or Sheffield or even Tate and I like it a lot more.

 

I feel like moving Kahnle in a deal without the other two should have returned more overall, but seems that wasn't the case.

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QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:15 AM)
Kahnle is like a penny stock that took off and could be on its way to blue chip status, but is also one bad quarterly earnings report from being back in the toilet. Sell now, while you're getting value at all.

He's not a penny stock. Dude has incredible stuff. He was always well-thought of as a guy who, if he could put it together, he could be dominant.

 

 

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I think that is the fallacy of prospects in baseball. Your take on Kahnle who is having a breakout year backed by improvement in stuff - he's a few bad months away from being worthless. Then for Rutherford who is off to a relatively slow start in Low A - he's a few good months away from being untouchable.

 

Right, because historical trends tells us players in midst of breakout aren't continue to sustain performance, while prospects are very much likely going to pan out?

Rutherford has a wonderful K/bb playing among first round draft picks only a year after being drafted out of high school. There's really no major warts on him, even if the power never comes he's got what it takes to be a standout LF.

 

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QUOTE (MDWhiteSoxFan @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:03 AM)
IamShack what would you have to receive in order to trade Avi? Just wondering as he never put all together until this year much like Kahnle but he is younger and a bat. I like the return as Rutherford is a young potential impact OF, I trust the organization when it comes to pitchers for the most part. Tito's numbers are pretty great right now as a throw in type.

For Avi, I'd want a guy our scouts really, really liked in the top 50 or so. Otherwise, I'd hold onto him and gamble a bit.

 

 

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:38 AM)
Yah, but I'd take Luzardo over anyone not named Rutherford in our deal.

 

The trade is fine. I'm not super excited about it, but not mad either. Add Florial or Sheffield or even Tate and I like it a lot more.

 

I feel like moving Kahnle in a deal without the other two should have returned more overall, but seems that wasn't the case.

I agree.

 

I feel like as long as our scouts really, really love Rutherford, then great.

 

On to Moncada.

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:38 AM)
He's not a penny stock. Dude has incredible stuff. He was always well-thought of as a guy who, if he could put it together, he could be dominant.

He was a 5th round pick and a Rule 5 guy right? You're acting like we just traded Kershaw for the corpse of Borchard.

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:38 AM)
He's not a penny stock. Dude has incredible stuff. He was always well-thought of as a guy who, if he could put it together, he could be dominant.

 

 

I'm not sure I agree he was ever thought of that highly. This is the very definition of selling high. This is how you rebuild smartly.

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QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:42 AM)
He was a 5th round pick and a Rule 5 guy right? You're acting like we just traded Kershaw for the corpse of Borchard.

Look, I'm not going to make the same arguements with the 5 or so guys that want to suddenly value Kahle as nothing because he's no longer on our team.

 

Try reading. Read Hahn's quotes. Read the analytics. Watch a game.

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:46 AM)
Look, I'm not going to make the same arguements with the 5 or so guys that want to suddenly value Kahle as nothing because he's no longer on our team.

 

Try reading. Read Hahn's quotes. Read the analytics. Watch a game.

 

This is confusing. What did you expect to get for him?

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:40 AM)
For Avi, I'd want a guy our scouts really, really liked in the top 50 or so. Otherwise, I'd hold onto him and gamble a bit.

I kind of agree. Fixing relievers and flipping them is a bit different than a position player that may or may not have figured it out. I think Avi is not quite at the peak of his value.

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QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:42 AM)
He was a 5th round pick and a Rule 5 guy right? You're acting like we just traded Kershaw for the corpse of Borchard.

What does that have to do with it? Q was a 6 year minor league free agent. Mark Buehrle was a 38th round draft pick.

 

Kahnle averages 15 k per 9 innings in the major leagues this year. Rutherford has been ho hum in A ball. Yet Kahnle is sure to have a bad month and be worthless, while if Rutherford has a good month or 2, he's untouchable.

 

I just hope some posters here are prepared when some of these guys (and not necessarily Rutherford) bust. It will happen, yet being ranked #1 on the farm seems to mean as much to some as winning the WS.

 

Who cares what you are ranked. What matters is what these guys become. The Sox staff is on the clock.

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If Kahnle was a SP or Position player I would not feel this way, but he's a relief pitcher, and there is too much history of relief pitchers suddenly turning into pumpkins. He has great stuff. I hope he has great personal success. But I am just not willing to gamble to hold on when we have opportunity for future starting Position players or starting pitchers.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:48 AM)
Who cares what you are ranked. What matters is what these guys become. The Sox staff is on the clock.

+100

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:48 AM)
What does that have to do with it? Q was a 6 year minor league free agent. Mark Buehrle was a 38th round draft pick.

 

Kahnle averages 15 k per 9 innings in the major leagues this year. Rutherford has been ho hum in A ball. Yet Kahnle is sure to have a bad month and be worthless, while if Rutherford has a good month or 2, he's untouchable.

 

I just hope some posters here are prepared when some of these guys (and not necessarily Rutherford) bust. It will happen, yet being ranked #1 on the farm seems to mean as much to some as winning the WS.

 

Who cares what you are ranked. What matters is what these guys become. The Sox staff is on the clock.

 

It's because some will bust that I want as much redundancy as possible in our farm system.

 

But the point with Blake playing hsi way into untouchable status: there were quite a few players in the top 70 or so who some posters identified as risers and really good players that people objected to based on ranking as not good enough for Q. Think Tucker and Acuna. 6 months later they were too good for Q.

 

If Blake shows his talent, a young, talented offensive OF prospect is >>> a good reliever.

 

But I totally agree that at this point we are strictly relying on sox staff. Our initial returns were AAA guys who had been developed elsewhere. THis new crop is A/A+ guys who have quite a ways to go.

 

Can't we hire the diamondback player dev guys who turned out AJ pollock and Peralta please?

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QUOTE (2005thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:24 AM)
I think that is the fallacy of prospects in baseball. Your take on Kahnle who is having a breakout year backed by improvement in stuff - he's a few bad months away from being worthless. Then for Rutherford who is off to a relatively slow start in Low A - he's a few good months away from being untouchable.

 

Right, because historical trends tells us players in midst of breakout aren't continue to sustain performance, while prospects are very much likely going to pan out?

 

The saying goes, rebuilding clubs should always be trading relievers.

 

The trade really breaks down like this:

 

Robertson + Frazier for Ian Clarkin + Tito Polo + Tyler Clippard ($2.5 million owed, Sox pay) + Yankees pay entire remaining salaries for Robertson/Frazier (Sox save roughly $20 million)

 

Kahnle for Rutherford

 

I like Kahnle, I really do. I know he has shown great improvement this year and has been outstanding, and very well may continue to do so. I also know what happened to Jesse Crain, Scott Linebrink and Nate Jones though. Relief pitching is arguably one of the most volatile positions in the sport.

 

Overall we should be very happy with this deal, as it both saved the club money and added young talent. Hahn has done a tremendous job stocking our farm system with interesting young players. Not all of them will pan out, but the team certainly has plenty of potential options and depth that it did not have 12 months ago.

 

This deal also greatly aids our tank efforts, as I do not see them winning very many games with such a shaky bullpen.

 

Also, consider we traded Gordon Beckham for Yency Almonte...Yency Almonte for Tommy Kahnle...Tommy Kahnle for Blake Rutherford.................we basically used Gordon Beckham to acquire Blake Rutherford

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QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:42 AM)
He was a 5th round pick and a Rule 5 guy right? You're acting like we just traded Kershaw for the corpse of Borchard.

Johan Santana was a Rule 5 guy.

 

Good thing the Twins traded him after his first signs of success in 2003.

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