Sox send Frazier/DRob/Kahnle to NY ~ Rutherford/Clarkin/Clippard/Polo

[iamshack]

I'm not sure anyone really complained about the Eaton trade, but otherwise the "one player short" comments are frequent. And quite frankly, I think they reflect exactly what Hahn is trying to accomplish with these trades and that's grabbing the best potential impact talents possible. The hardest thing to find is stars and with greater restrictions on the draft & international free agency it's got even harder for rebuilding clubs. Basically, you have to get super lucky or spend big in free agency if you don't have great draft position or valuable that can be cashed in to kick off a rebuild.

 

We had three super valuable trade chips coming into this rebuild. For those three assets, we landed two blue chip positional prospects & five quality pitching prospects along with some filler (sorry Basabe). We were also able to use some of our payroll savings to add another potential positional star in Robert. That's a great start, especially on the pitching side, but obviously we needed more star upside on the positional side. IMO, even though I feel the trade is a player light when viewed in isolation, getting another potential blue chipper in Rutherford is HUGE for the overall process.

 

We all have to remember this is a numbers game. As much as I wish we could, we simply can't assume all these guys work out. Let's say we have four potential positional stars in Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, & Rutherford. If two of those guys become full-fledged superstars, one becomes an above-average everyday player, and the fourth guy completely flops, that's a huge win for us. We have enough organizational depth and payroll capacity to fill in holes with good/solid players. The important thing is finding two or three superstars for the lineup and another two or three in the rotation. Getting Rutherford puts us in a much better spot to achieve that goal. And while a much lesser consideration, losing Robertson & Kahnle puts us in a better position to land a future superstar in the 2018 draft.

 

So again, while I think this trade is a little light on its own merits, I think it was worth making when considering the whole process. I just think it's hard to pass on a potential superstar today, because you might get a better prospect with a higher ceiling down the road. I just don't think the reward is worth the risk, especially if you believe that Rutherford can be a blue chipper by next season.

I don't view Rutherford as a potential superstar, but I agree with basically everything else here.

 

Well done.

[oneofthemikes]

How quickly and at what age does power start to develop (I know that it varies by player, but generally speaking)? Rutherford hasn't showed it yet, but I've still seen his FV Power grade as high as 60. I guess I'm just a little surprised at the lack of HRs on his resume at the moment.

[tray]

I wonder if Hahn would rather have had Fowler instead of Rutherford.

[iamshack]

I wonder if Hahn would rather have had Fowler instead of Rutherford.

Dunno, but we've heard a lot about Rutherford over the last 12-14 months.

[bmags]

If Kahnle is such a huge injury risk, aren't all the White Sox pitchers, including their prospects?

 

Yes.

[Chicago White Sox]

I don't view Rutherford as a potential superstar, but I agree with basically everything else here.

 

Well done.

And that's totally fair. I have my own concerns with Rutherford, but it seems like the Sox believe he can be that kind of player. And assuming that's the case, I can understand why they made this deal.

 

But to your point Shack, there's definitely a chance they left some value on the table. It does seem like some posters are really sleeping on the value Kahnle could have a year from.

[The Sir]

So if you trace the WSN and NYY trades back to their roots, we turned Joe Borchard, Hector Santiago, Gordon Beckham, Dexter Carter, Aaron Poreda, Adam Russell, Clayton Richard, Trayce Thompson and Micah Johnson into Lucas Giolito, Reynaldo Lopez, Dane Dunning, Blake Rutherford, Ian Clarkin and Tito Polo.

 

I want all of our new assets to succeed, of course, but considering that literally all of our original assets have already failed, it won't take much for these trades to have added to our "talent wealth".

[iamshack]

And that's totally fair. I have my own concerns with Rutherford, but it seems like the Sox believe he can be that kind of player. And assuming that's the case, I can understand why they made this deal.

 

But to your point Shack, there's definitely a chance they left some value on the table. It does seem like some posters are really sleeping on the value Kahnle could have a year from.

Yeah, hopefully Rutherford turns into a "more athletic" David Justice or whatever. I understand why we would make the move.

 

So onward we go to the Moncada Armada!

 

 

[witesoxfan]

And that's totally fair. I have my own concerns with Rutherford, but it seems like the Sox believe he can be that kind of player. And assuming that's the case, I can understand why they made this deal.

 

But to your point Shack, there's definitely a chance they left some value on the table. It does seem like some posters are really sleeping on the value Kahnle could have a year from.

 

I think with relievers, it's best to sell high, even if they can get higher. Kahnle is a shoulder injury away from being worthless.

 

But to your earlier point, the Sox have 3-4 potential superstars in the lineup, and that doesn't include the fact that they are going to have, at minimum, two top 5 picks coming up.

[Dominikk85]

I think it was a very smart trade by the yankees. Rutherford is a big price to pay but he basically is the only real prospect they give up.

 

I like it much more than the chapman deal for the cubs. The basically gave up the same or even less and got two relievers who are not rentals. Not quite a chapman but both together are probably more valuable.

 

From the sox side it is good too, they are taking the bigger risk with taking an A ball guy but if your farm is that good you should take that gamble.

 

 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I'm not sure anyone really complained about the Eaton trade, but otherwise the "one player short" comments are frequent. And quite frankly, I think they reflect exactly what Hahn is trying to accomplish with these trades and that's grabbing the best potential impact talents possible. The hardest thing to find is stars and with greater restrictions on the draft & international free agency it's got even harder for rebuilding clubs. Basically, you have to get super lucky or spend big in free agency if you don't have great draft position or valuable that can be cashed in to kick off a rebuild.

 

We had three super valuable trade chips coming into this rebuild. For those three assets, we landed two blue chip positional prospects & five quality pitching prospects along with some filler (sorry Basabe). We were also able to use some of our payroll savings to add another potential positional star in Robert. That's a great start, especially on the pitching side, but obviously we needed more star upside on the positional side. IMO, even though I feel the trade is a player light when viewed in isolation, getting another potential blue chipper in Rutherford is HUGE for the overall process.

 

We all have to remember this is a numbers game. As much as I wish we could, we simply can't assume all these guys work out. Let's say we have four potential positional stars in Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, & Rutherford. If two of those guys become full-fledged superstars, one becomes an above-average everyday player, and the fourth guy completely flops, that's a huge win for us. We have enough organizational depth and payroll capacity to fill in holes with good/solid players. The important thing is finding two or three superstars for the lineup and another two or three in the rotation. Getting Rutherford puts us in a much better spot to achieve that goal. And while a much lesser consideration, losing Robertson & Kahnle puts us in a better position to land a future superstar in the 2018 draft.

 

So again, while I think this trade is a little light on its own merits, I think it was worth making when considering the whole process. I just think it's hard to pass on a potential superstar today, because you might get a better prospect with a higher ceiling down the road. I just don't think the reward is worth the risk, especially if you believe that Rutherford can be a blue chipper by next season.

The funny thing is, depending upon how you define superstar, the White Sox kind of already had that prior to this season between Eaton, Abreu, Sale, Q and now Avi this year. I'm not saying at this point I disagree with the rebuild approach but just find it ironic that the best case scenario for this rebuild is to find a new group of core players (which is a risk when referring to prospects) when we had already established this type of core group locked up for multiple seasons yet still couldn't manage to win more than 78 games.

[RockRaines]

I think with relievers, it's best to sell high, even if they can get higher. Kahnle is a shoulder injury away from being worthless.

 

But to your earlier point, the Sox have 3-4 potential superstars in the lineup, and that doesn't include the fact that they are going to have, at minimum, two top 5 picks coming up.

Flipping relievers into good prospects is a great way to contribute to a rebuild.

[Superstar Lamar]

Yeah, hopefully Rutherford turns into a "more athletic" David Justice or whatever. I understand why we would make the move.

 

So onward we go to the Moncada Armada!

 

Moan for Yoan!

[Panerista]

Moan for Yoan!

"Not a particularly good way to start"

[flavum]

Todd Frazier just struck out facing Berrios.

[caulfield12]

I suppose any return can be debated but one constant theme I've noticed is any critic of the deals Hahn has made to this point say "one player short" or "a tick light on the back end."

 

Sale trade: "should've included Devers instead of Basabe & Diaz"

Eaton trade: "great but should've pried Robles instead of Giolito"

Quintana trade: "back end should've been better with Candelario"

Fraz/DRob/Kahnle trade: "Clarkin should've been 3rd piece w Andujar or Florial"

 

Given that we have basically been shopping most of these guys for over a year, Rick and team have a pretty good idea of the true market and what the best offers available.

 

Given that Rick has shown patience, even with some impatience on this board, it's fairly clear that he didn't just jump on any offer to dump these guys.

 

Given that there are still about 2 weeks left until the deadline, Rick's hand wasn't forced and ultimately these met the threshold of the type of return they could expect.

 

I'm extremely happy with these trades both individually and overall. I believe that the Sox did ample due diligence and extracted the appropriate returns that are realistic. I want the Sox to seek potential superstars and the more high end chips the more likely we hit on a few. Our system has plenty of B/C prospects that will likely be okay or surprise. Give me the blue chippers all day every day and I'll sacrifice the back end of deals.

 

One of the guys on the Score when he heard the list of Sox players thought it was going to be Gleyber Torres.

 

One wonders how close that was to reality, and what addition the White Sox would have had to make...?

[flavum]

Hahn on ESPN 1000 in five minutes if you can't get enough.

[Chicago White Sox]

The funny thing is, depending upon how you define superstar, the White Sox kind of already had that prior to this season between Eaton, Abreu, Sale, Q and now Avi this year. I'm not saying at this point I disagree with the rebuild approach but just find it ironic that the best case scenario for this rebuild is to find a new group of core players (which is a risk when referring to prospects) when we had already established this type of core group locked up for multiple seasons yet still couldn't manage to win more than 78 games.

The key difference though is despite having those superstars previously, we did not have the depth or payroll capacity we're projected to now to fill in around them. We literally had no one in AAA that we could call up and expect to be 1 to 2 WAR player right away. That's the main reason we had to rebuild.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Chicago White Sox

[steveno89]

If Kahnle is such a huge injury risk, aren't all the White Sox pitchers, including their prospects?

 

Sox had two choices:

 

Option 1 = cash in on Kahnle now while he is hot and healthy

 

Option 2 = cash in on Kahnle next season for a potentially higher return, but also risk injury and/or poor performance. Value can go up, but also could go down.

 

Option 3 = we keep Kahnle (doesn't make much sense to not deal him)

 

There is no shame in striking while the iron is hot on a relief asset. We should deal Swarzak soon as well.

[steveno89]

One of the guys on the Score when he heard the list of Sox players thought it was going to be Gleyber Torres.

 

One wonders how close that was to reality, and what addition the White Sox would have had to make...?

 

Even if the Sox ate money I doubt the Yankees would be motivated to deal Torres when his value is down. Sox I'm sure would have been all over him if he was available.

[Dick Allen]

Sox had two choices:

 

Option 1 = cash in on Kahnle now while he is hot and healthy

 

Option 2 = cash in on Kahnle next season for a potentially higher return, but also risk injury and/or poor performance. Value can go up, but also could go down.

 

Option 3 = we keep Kahnle (doesn't make much sense to not deal him)

 

There is no shame in striking while the iron is hot on a relief asset. We should deal Swarzak soon as well.

That I understand, but shouldn't they think about dealing Kopech? Strike while the iron is hot. Why risk injury?

 

I get trading Kahnle. I just don't get the he might get hurt, look at Nate Jones, posts. Everyone might get hurt.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

The key difference though is despite having those superstars previously, we did not have the depth or payroll capacity we're projected to now to fill in around them. We literally had no one in AAA that we could call up and expect to be 1 to 2 WAR player right away. That's the main reason we had to rebuild.

I hear you but pretty sad when you consider that every one of those players was on a "team friendly" contract. It was still a very strong collection of talent as evidenced by these trades, just a shame they couldn't find even average MLB starters to field the rest of the team. So many free agent busts in recent years.

Edited July 19, 2017 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[TheFutureIsNear]

Would I have liked 1 more player in this deal? Sure. Was the caliber of player I think should have been added enough to hold up the deal? No. A guy like Solak at the back end would have been nice, but really not the end of the world.

 

I also think Clarkin is underrated and people are a little down on him just because where he was ranked in the Yankees deep system before the season started.

[hi8is]

"There's certainly players of interest still on our club that other teams are calling us about."

 

Paraphrasing Hahn's response when asked about more trades in the next couple weeks.

[caulfield12]

For those of you who want to get mad at Hahn, JR, the Q trade, the "lacking Gleyber Torres" move for Kahnle, you can watch this in order to get even more upset.

http://www.milb.com/multimedia/vpp.jsp?con...83&sid=milb

 

Mr. T-Junior does have 20 errors in 82 games at SS, so there's that. And 30-45 error seasons are not uncommon at that level.

 

So I'll take the more positive approach of being wowed we scouted him so well originally and got by with a fairly middling contract offer compared to what he would get today on the open market.

 

 

 

1. Avi

2. Swarzak

3A. Leury Garcia

3B. Melky Cabrera

4. Any veteran starter (Holland/Pelfrey/MiGo/Shields)

5. Yolmer Sanchez

5B. Dan Jennings

6. Tyler Saladino

Edited July 19, 2017 by caulfield12