Sox send Frazier/DRob/Kahnle to NY ~ Rutherford/Clarkin/Clippard/Polo

[shipps]

That I understand, but shouldn't they think about dealing Kopech? Strike while the iron is hot. Why risk injury?

 

I get trading Kahnle. I just don't get the he might get hurt, look at Nate Jones, posts. Everyone might get hurt.

 

Apple meet orange.

[35thstreetswarm]

The funny thing is, depending upon how you define superstar, the White Sox kind of already had that prior to this season between Eaton, Abreu, Sale, Q and now Avi this year. I'm not saying at this point I disagree with the rebuild approach but just find it ironic that the best case scenario for this rebuild is to find a new group of core players (which is a risk when referring to prospects) when we had already established this type of core group locked up for multiple seasons yet still couldn't manage to win more than 78 games.

 

I'm fully on board with the rebuild, but this is the kind of thought that keeps me up at night. Before our prospects can build our team up, we have to exhaust a few to fill the holes left by guys we traded just to get back to square one. If our new crop of pitching prospects led to, say, a Kopech becoming Chris Sale, and a Giolito becoming Q, that would seem like a reasonably good scenario. But that kind of gets us nowhere, no?

 

Ultimately, I have faith that the depth of positional prospects we now have in place, plus a couple high draft picks, will be enough to move us forward. And there was no realistic alternative to a rebuild. But it's still a scary leap.

[shipps]

For those of you who want to get mad at Hahn, JR, the Q trade, the "lacking Gleyber Torres" move for Kahnle, you can watch this in order to get even more upset.

http://www.milb.com/multimedia/vpp.jsp?con...83&sid=milb

 

Mr. T-Junior does have 20 errors in 82 games at SS, so there's that. And 30-45 error seasons are not uncommon at that level.

 

So I'll take the more positive approach of being wowed we scouted him so well originally and got by with a fairly middling contract offer compared to what he would get today on the open market.

 

Seriously? A Tatis video in this thread?

[Dick Allen]

Apple meet orange.

Really? How much higher can Kopech be ranked? Maybe a little higher, but if he gets hurt, he's worthless. It's pretty much the same thing except you can get more for Kopech than Kahnle. Tyler Kolek, Brady Aiken...those guys got hurt.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Dick Allen

[Chicago White Sox]

I hear you but pretty sad when you consider that every one of those players was on a "team friendly" contract. It was still a very strong collection of talent as evidenced by these trades, just a shame they couldn't find even average MLB starters to field the rest of the team. So many free agent busts in recent years.

I totally agree, it makes me sick to my stomach that we couldn't build around a core of Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Eaton, Abrue, etc. But the reality was the system was barren and we were at a pivot point. Our rebuilding effort is off to a great start simply because we cashed in our core assets before they lost all value.

[flavum]

Kahnle Kd Grossman to begin his Yankees tenure.

[bmags]

That I understand, but shouldn't they think about dealing Kopech? Strike while the iron is hot. Why risk injury?

 

I get trading Kahnle. I just don't get the he might get hurt, look at Nate Jones, posts. Everyone might get hurt.

 

If you get trading Kahnle, you get the rationale that he might get hurt or decline.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Let's not forget Mr. Jenks and Mr. Crede from the held onto too long list, along with Jesse Crain, Gavin Floyd and I suppose you could throw Humber and DeAza on there as well, not that we were going to be blown away with offers for those last two guys.

[shipps]

Really? How much higher can Kopech be ranked? Maybe a little higher, but if he gets hurt, he's worthless. It's pretty much the same thing except you can get more for Kopech than Kahnle.

 

And their ages are different. Their investment was different. Their roles are different.

[caulfield12]

If you get trading Kahnle, you get the rationale that he might get hurt or decline.

 

Depends who you trade Kopech for, and the rationale for doing so. Obviously, if another team's willing to tremendously overvalue him (and how likely is that, since he's close to peak already)...trading out of concern for a future injury (or watching Burdi go down), that's going to end up valuing him at 75 or 80 cents on the dollar anyway since every scout/GM will legitimately have the exact same concerns (heck, all they have to do is watch the Mets' struggles in 2016 and 2017 in keeping their pitchers healthy.)

[Dick Allen]

If you get trading Kahnle, you get the rationale that he might get hurt or decline.

Now, I get that he can decline, and that he can help your return while you trade some relatively expensive guys. Unless he has some things going on we haven't been made aware, or someone with the White Sox sees something in his mechanics where injury is inevitable, trading players because they might get hurt is silly. Who isn't on the might get hurt list?

[Dick Allen]

And their ages are different. Their investment was different. Their roles are different.

But they are pitchers who might get hurt, and supposedly that is plenty of reason not to have them around. Kahnle we know can get major league hitters out. It appears Kopech will be able to do the same, but we can't be 100% sure, and his value is higher.

 

I just think if you aren't worried about Kopech or Giolitto or Lopez or Dunning getting hurt, there is no reason to think Kahnle was destined for a catastrophic injury.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Dick Allen

[hi8is]

I still can't believe we got Blake ehphin Rutherford!!!!

[bmags]

But they are pitchers who might get hurt, and supposedly that is plenty of reason not to have them around.

 

Great point.

 

Guys look how DA totally showed us!

[iamshack]

Great point.

 

Guys look how DA totally showed us!

He does have a point.

 

It isn't fair to put this injury risk on him when the guy has really never had health concerns.

 

Performance concerns, fine. But not injury concerns.

 

Just like you say in regards to athletic, toolsy prospects - they don't all have to be Courtney Hawkins or Jared Mitchell simply because of...Courtney Hawkins and Jared Mitchell.

[GreenSox]

Rick Hahn coming up with Waddle and Silvy at 2:30

I listed to it. Rutherford recommended by Hostetler, Kenny Williams and Buddy Bell.

 

 

 

 

[bmags]

He does have a point.

 

It isn't fair to put this injury risk on him when the guy has really never had health concerns.

 

Performance concerns, fine. But not injury concerns.

 

Just like you say in regards to athletic, toolsy prospects - they don't all have to be Courtney Hawkins or Jared Mitchell simply because of...Courtney Hawkins and Jared Mitchell.

 

Here's the main point. It's not a personal indictment of Kahnle. It may be a message board groupthinky strategy, but the crux of the issue is that relievers in baseball as a group have had similar issues to running backs in the nfl. THere are a few amazing exceptions of year over year consistency and excellence, but tons of variability year to year in performance.

 

ANd because they are a group purchased for win-now purposes, it is riskier to bet on their future performance being the same or better than a hitter/SP with track record.

 

That is why people are saying to trade him, not because he is kahnle, but because Kahnle is a reliever, and relievers are valuable but risky assets.

 

I like Kahnle. He was awesome to watch. We could ahve held on and seen him become a top 5 closer. But when we are in rebuild modes like this, I'd much rather trade our successful relievers for future assets because unless their performance is immediately important to our team I don't want to hold onto them.

[Balta1701]

Here's the main point. It's not a personal indictment of Kahnle. It may be a message board groupthinky strategy, but the crux of the issue is that relievers in baseball as a group have had similar issues to running backs in the nfl. THere are a few amazing exceptions of year over year consistency and excellence, but tons of variability year to year in performance.

 

ANd because they are a group purchased for win-now purposes, it is riskier to bet on their future performance being the same or better than a hitter/SP with track record.

 

That is why people are saying to trade him, not because he is kahnle, but because Kahnle is a reliever, and relievers are valuable but risky assets.

 

I like Kahnle. He was awesome to watch. We could ahve held on and seen him become a top 5 closer. But when we are in rebuild modes like this, I'd much rather trade our successful relievers for future assets because unless their performance is immediately important to our team I don't want to hold onto them.

Would it be safe to summarize this by saying, if you want to compare Kopech and Kahnle, that relievers seem more likely to lose all their value fairly suddenly than starters?

[knightni]

Kahnle looked pretty good today.

 

Frazier... not so much.

[Kyyle23]

I listed to it. Rutherford recommended by Hostetler, Kenny Williams and Buddy Bell.

 

Yes. Those are the guys that do that job

[Dick Allen]

Kahnle looked pretty good today.

 

Frazier... not so much.

Frazier had an 11 pitch AB.

[bmags]

Would it be safe to summarize this by saying, if you want to compare Kopech and Kahnle, that relievers seem more likely to lose all their value fairly suddenly than starters?

 

Yes, but there's a second part with Kahnle's value to us right now is as an asset to acquire future assets. Kopech IS a future asset. If they both got injured today it would mean different things for the organization. Kopech getting TJ would suck because it's not guaranteed he comes back stronger, but it's not destroying his value to the white sox. Kahnle getting TJ basically costs us some X on our future team.

[Quin]

I listed to it. Rutherford recommended by Hostetler, Kenny Williams and Buddy Bell.

 

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also Hostetler.The scouting director with a dramatically different philosophy.

 

 

[iamshack]

Here's the main point. It's not a personal indictment of Kahnle. It may be a message board groupthinky strategy, but the crux of the issue is that relievers in baseball as a group have had similar issues to running backs in the nfl. THere are a few amazing exceptions of year over year consistency and excellence, but tons of variability year to year in performance.

 

ANd because they are a group purchased for win-now purposes, it is riskier to bet on their future performance being the same or better than a hitter/SP with track record.

 

That is why people are saying to trade him, not because he is kahnle, but because Kahnle is a reliever, and relievers are valuable but risky assets.

 

I like Kahnle. He was awesome to watch. We could ahve held on and seen him become a top 5 closer. But when we are in rebuild modes like this, I'd much rather trade our successful relievers for future assets because unless their performance is immediately important to our team I don't want to hold onto them.

Yeah, I get it. I watch sports too.

 

I think there is a case to be made that this guy is here to stay now. That case is backed by actual data, unlike the case of Avi, perhaps, and therefore it is reasonable to suggest that this may be the beginning of something, rather than a flash in the pan. That's all the argument is.

 

Then folks started throwing the injury stuff into the equation, when, it probably isn't warranted in the case of Kahnle, or at least not more than any other 28 year old pitcher in his 4th year as a professional. By this measure, should we trade Rodon for whatever we can get after he gets his feet under him a bit? Since he might need tjs?

[shipps]

Yeah, I get it. I watch sports too.

 

I think there is a case to be made that this guy is here to stay now. That case is backed by actual data, unlike the case of Avi, perhaps, and therefore it is reasonable to suggest that this may be the beginning of something, rather than a flash in the pan. That's all the argument is.

 

Then folks started throwing the injury stuff into the equation, when, it probably isn't warranted in the case of Kahnle, or at least not more than any other 28 year old pitcher in his 4th year as a professional. By this measure, should we trade Rodon for whatever we can get after he gets his feet under him a bit? Since he might need tjs?

 

Actually I have thought about that one.