southsider2k5 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 12:14 PM) While I don't really believe that, even if it were the case, that's not on the fan base, that's on ownership. There are people quite actively b****ing about something that happened 20 years ago. When that is your fan base, alienation is a major and legitimate concern for ownership to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:19 AM) There are people quite actively b****ing about something that happened 20 years ago. When that is your fan base, alienation is a major and legitimate concern for ownership to worry about. How were the Indians, Royals and Twins all able to overcome this? The A's have the worst stadium in sports, 8 playoff appearances since 2000, for example. The Rays have more, too. Edited July 31, 2017 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 I think that things like "you can't rebuild in a big market" and "this community won't support a winner" and "JR won't rebuild because he's old" are a lot of made-up media food that fans use to rationalize behavior they don't agree with. There's no evidence of any of this, because we haven't seen any other condition than hail-mary-all-in plays over the last decade. When we see what a rebuild looks like, or what the fans do if we make the playoffs for a few years, etc, THEN we can start drawing conclusions. Until then, let's stop making s*** up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 12:06 PM) lol, everyone has no problem spending someone else's money, but if they want to act like a business man, look out.... A businessman would operate a business to run well & make money. A businessman would not be surprised if a s***ty product/service stopped making money and would do things to fix it or sell the company. The leaked financials a couple years back from the "we're so poor though!!" owners showed that they still print money regardless. This team was purchased for 19 million and is worth over 600 million now and has countless sweetheart tax deals, they have no business crying poor. You can't have it both ways. You can't shrug your shoulders and say that your fans don't support the team so you can't do anything to fix it while still taking in millions of dollars in profit. Either: own up and say profits are the only thing that matters & screw the team/fans we don't care OR try to fix your product and bring the fans back in. I will never side with a billionaire ownership complaining about fan support while he makes millions in profits, screws taxpayers, & puts out a s***ty product. Edited July 31, 2017 by Jenksy Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:30 AM) I think that things like "you can't rebuild in a big market" and "this community won't support a winner" and "JR won't rebuild because he's old" are a lot of made-up media food that fans use to rationalize behavior they don't agree with. There's no evidence of any of this, because we haven't seen any other condition than hail-mary-all-in plays over the last decade. When we see what a rebuild looks like, or what the fans do if we make the playoffs for a few years, etc, THEN we can start drawing conclusions. Until then, let's stop making s*** up. I think most Sox fans would gladly take the Cubs' front office/minor league-development staff/scouting system and 60-65% of their free agent payroll in exchange for completely forgetting about a new stadium until 2035-2040. Winning is 90% of the issue. Which AL team lost the highest percentage season ticket holders from last year? The Royals, after just one hiccup...like the Sox went though in 2006-07 after the World Series. Except they have no light at the end of the tunnel after this year. But back to the bottom 3. The Mariners got a new broadcast deal, Cano and Cruz...the other team out of the playoffs for more than a decade, the Padres, are spending hundreds of millions in Latin America, at least they were. Of course, they didn't have our assets to turn it around. Myers was probably their best player, and he's worth about Jose Abreu in trade. Edited July 31, 2017 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:40 AM) A businessman would operate a business to run well & make money. A businessman would not be surprised if a s***ty product/service stopped making money and would do things to fix it or sell the company. The leaked financials a couple years back from the "we're so poor though!!" owners showed that they still print money regardless. This team was purchased for 19 million and is worth over 600 million now and has countless sweetheart tax deals, they have no business crying poor. You can't have it both ways. You can't shrug your shoulders and say that your fans don't support the team so you can't do anything to fix it while still taking in millions of dollars in profit. Either: own up and say profits are the only thing that matters & screw the team/fans we don't care OR try to fix your product and bring the fans back in. I will never side with a billionaire ownership complaining about fan support while he makes millions in profits, screws taxpayers, & puts out a s***ty product. Closer to $2 billion...going by Marlins' sale. How many businesses are in the bottom 10-15% for a decade in performance, yet their valuation still goes up like Amazon post 2008/09? I can't think of a single one...and they might be worth even more now with all the vets off the payroll except Abreu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 12:40 PM) A businessman would operate a business to run well & make money. A businessman would not be surprised if a s***ty product/service stopped making money and would do things to fix it or sell the company. The leaked financials a couple years back from the "we're so poor though!!" owners showed that they still print money regardless. This team was purchased for 19 million and is worth over 600 million now and has countless sweetheart tax deals, they have no business crying poor. You can't have it both ways. You can't shrug your shoulders and say that your fans don't support the team so you can't do anything to fix it while still taking in millions of dollars in profit. Either: own up and say profits are the only thing that matters & screw the team/fans we don't care OR try to fix your product and bring the fans back in. I will never side with a billionaire ownership complaining about fan support while he makes millions in profits, screws taxpayers, & puts out a s***ty product. This is the one truth in here. The rest of it is irrelevant. What the team was purchased for in 1980 has zero do do with how the business is run today. To me it is obvious that they worry about the fan base, as they have spent pretty much a decade trying to add to teams to quickly put results on the field as they are obviously fearful that the fan base will dessert them in droves... and they regularly have, not just in down times, but even in years where they are in first place all season long and in playoff years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:49 AM) This is the one truth in here. The rest of it is irrelevant. What the team was purchased for in 1980 has zero do do with how the business is run today. To me it is obvious that they worry about the fan base, as they have spent pretty much a decade trying to add to teams to quickly put results on the field as they are obviously fearful that the fan base will dessert them in droves... and they regularly have, not just in down times, but even in years where they are in first place all season long and in playoff years. And why can't that be attributed to JR's age and impatience to thread the needle of competing while still being profitable or at least breaking even? One of my best friends' parents is a huge Sox fan, watches nearly every game. 72 years old. He kept on repeating (these last two weeks) that it's quite likely he won't even be around the next time the Sox make the playoffs. Or did all that desire to win go out the window sometime around 2010-12 when it became obvious the 2005 core was never going to win another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:49 AM) This is the one truth in here. The rest of it is irrelevant. What the team was purchased for in 1980 has zero do do with how the business is run today. To me it is obvious that they worry about the fan base, as they have spent pretty much a decade trying to add to teams to quickly put results on the field as they are obviously fearful that the fan base will dessert them in droves... and they regularly have, not just in down times, but even in years where they are in first place all season long and in playoff years. They pretty much suck at analyzing the fanbase...with prime evidence being 2017 attendance actually rising despite being one of the two worst teams in baseball. (And just 1000ish behind the Indians, best team in AL, better stadium and huge winning streak going.) They were never able to think counterintuitively, which is doing the opposite of what isn't working, until they had no choice. KW and Hahn should have pushed back harder. Edited July 31, 2017 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 10:47 AM) A measure of the quality of a fan base isn't that they pack them in when winning. It is if they show up when they aren't. So that means the Cubs are the best fans in baseball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (SonofaRoache @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:03 AM) True. Also I'll add that Cubs attendance started tanking and forced them to make the moves they did. The Cubs had tickets sold, but massive no shows before the rebuild. That actually costs more because they staff the day of game employees based on tix sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:06 AM) The Indians tore down two perfectly legitimate contending teams....2000-2002, that was more logical. The second one, around 20007/08, really killed that franchise, along with the strike as well. Owner more hated by many many multiples than JR. The Indians went to the World Series the year after the strike. And sold out for 8 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 12:05 PM) So that means the Cubs are the best fans in baseball? The Cubs are/were the best team in baseball at attracting regional/tourist fans. It's quite simple. Whether it's grandmothers in Iowa, location/proximity to downtown, WGN, Harry Caray, Lovable Losers, the Billy Goat, the historic nature of the stadium, day baseball, bleacher babes, the entertainment complex, access to bars/drinking, Budweiser...no other team even comes close. You can argue the Cardinals or Red Sox, I suppose...but the Cubs are basically printing money right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 12:11 PM) The Indians went to the World Series the year after the strike. And sold out for 8 years Okay, the strike as an aftereffect combined with that blue collar area (similar to Pitt and Detroit) being decimated by the financial crisis...hatred for the ownership group after the 2007/08 period when they basically refused to pay to keep the team together. There are a number of factors at play. Frustration they never won the World Series. Frustration lingering from that 1970's and 80's wasteland of poor results...and the fear of a return to those bleak times. More attention on Cavs with LeBron, new basketball stadium, Ohio State football, etc. Edited July 31, 2017 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwritecode Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 12:49 PM) This is the one truth in here. The rest of it is irrelevant. What the team was purchased for in 1980 has zero do do with how the business is run today. To me it is obvious that they worry about the fan base, as they have spent pretty much a decade trying to add to teams to quickly put results on the field as they are obviously fearful that the fan base will dessert them in droves... and they regularly have, not just in down times, but even in years where they are in first place all season long and in playoff years. It's almost like fans expect something a little better than being in first place "most of the season" or having one lone post-season appearance in the last decade... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 01:28 PM) It's almost like fans expect something a little better than being in first place "most of the season" or having one lone post-season appearance in the last decade... When they are winning games and in first place, why does 2009 or 2011 matter? The White Sox fans not showing up in 2012 really spooked this team to new heights. There have been a lot more people at games than I thought this year though. That will be tested during the week and when the kids go back to school. They are trying $1 hot dog Wednesday to see if that helps. So those ticket sales must really be meager. Family Sunday really is taking off. Almost 30k yesterday. And over 30k to get a piece of crap jersey on Saturday. But the highlight on Saturday was a couple of rows in front of me was a group of about 6 guys. One guy did seem like the ringleader, he did buy a round of beers. He and another guy in his group got into an argument, and the other guy threw his entire beer on the ringleader and stormed away never to return. You buy a guy a $10 beer and he douses you with it. That ain't right. Edited July 31, 2017 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 09:42 AM) Kansas City plays in a parking lot. Look at thier numbers If the Sox were the only team in town they'd sell out every game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 01:10 PM) The Cubs had tickets sold, but massive no shows before the rebuild. That actually costs more because they staff the day of game employees based on tix sold. Yep, no shows is the key here. I was surprised with this, but then again they play a lot of day games. People could just go to work and spend time with their families instead of watching horrendous baseball. The Cubs have actually fielded some good teams since the '98 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 01:02 PM) They pretty much suck at analyzing the fanbase...with prime evidence being 2017 attendance actually rising despite being one of the two worst teams in baseball. (And just 1000ish behind the Indians, best team in AL, better stadium and huge winning streak going.) They were never able to think counterintuitively, which is doing the opposite of what isn't working, until they had no choice. KW and Hahn should have pushed back harder. I do think their advertising revenue has utterly utterly cratered this year even if ticket sales have gone up, although I'm not sure how much of that is taken up by Comcast. Had the DirecTV Extra Innings preview a week ago, watched a few sox games, couldn't help but notice that there was basically one "paid commercial" per game it seemed. Every commercial break was 3 public service announcements and people aren't getting paid for those. It was like listening to Rush Limbaugh's show, there's no revenue coming in through TV ads right now at all, literally no one is trying to reach White Sox fans through TV, but again that might be being eaten by Comcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:01 AM) The fanbases that show up even when things are bad versus the ones that completely dessert a franchise makes a huge difference in the resources a franchise has. It is the reason that places like Cleveland stay bad so much longer than others. I don't know if I buy this. I go to at least 10 games a year, but I can't question why a man wouldn't pay $200-$400 to take his team to watch the Sox suck and then go home. There are much better ways to spend time and money. Fans don't owe the organization anything to be honest. Fans are customers and the onus is on the team to draw their interest. People don't spend money to not enjoy themselves, if Wrigleyville wasn't the scene it is fans wouldn't gladly attend games in down years. That being said, if there was only one baseball team in Chicago I still think both stadiums sell out no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 01:51 PM) I do think their advertising revenue has utterly utterly cratered this year even if ticket sales have gone up, although I'm not sure how much of that is taken up by Comcast. Had the DirecTV Extra Innings preview a week ago, watched a few sox games, couldn't help but notice that there was basically one "paid commercial" per game it seemed. Every commercial break was 3 public service announcements and people aren't getting paid for those. It was like listening to Rush Limbaugh's show, there's no revenue coming in through TV ads right now at all, literally no one is trying to reach White Sox fans through TV, but again that might be being eaten by Comcast. Houston has the best record in the American League and is a legit world series contender, but is only 14th in attendance curiously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwritecode Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 01:34 PM) When they are winning games and in first place, why does 2009 or 2011 matter? The White Sox fans not showing up in 2012 really spooked this team to new heights. We didn't show up in 2012 because the team didn't do anything in 2010 or 2011 to make us believe that 2012 would be any different. The big attendance jumps don't really happen during the season. They happen in the prior off-season. That's why the 2006 attendance was higher than 2005. And really, the loss of fans from 2011 - 2012 was pretty small compared to the year-to-year losses 5 years before and 5 years after. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 01:34 PM) There have been a lot more people at games than I thought this year though. That will be tested during the week and when the kids go back to school. They are trying $1 hot dog Wednesday to see if that helps. So those ticket sales must really be meager. Family Sunday really is taking off. Almost 30k yesterday. And over 30k to get a piece of crap jersey on Saturday. That's really the good news in all of this. Give the fans something to believe in with a stated goal in mind and they'll actually support the effort. If only they would've done this 10 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 02:04 PM) We didn't show up in 2012 because the team didn't do anything in 2010 or 2011 to make us believe that 2012 would be any different. The big attendance jumps don't really happen during the season. They happen in the prior off-season. That's why the 2006 attendance was higher than 2005. And really, the loss of fans from 2011 - 2012 was pretty small compared to the year-to-year losses 5 years before and 5 years after. That's really the good news in all of this. Give the fans something to believe in with a stated goal in mind and they'll actually support the effort. If only they would've done this 10 years ago. Then how come attendance was lower in 2009 than in 2008 which was lower than 2007 Being in first place for the vast majority of the season doesn't make people want to come to the park due to what they did the year before? Kind of makes you wonder why they showed up and paid big bucks in 2005 for the WS considering it had been 46 years since they even went to one of those, and 88 since they actually won. 2006 was bigger because the team forced season ticket buys for WS tickets. Edited July 31, 2017 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:22 AM) The Roosevelt/Clark/River site has been sold and is going to be developed into offices and residences. The Sox aren't moving there. In retrospect, it would have been pretty nice, as other things would have been developed around there, but it had to be a football/baseball stadium. If it was built, the complaints would be even louder. That site is nowhere near usable for baseball. There is literally ONE road leading to that site. And it's surrounded by overpasses and rail tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 02:14 PM) Then how come attendance was lower in 2009 than in 2008 which was lower than 2007 Being in first place for the vast majority of the season doesn't make people want to come to the park due to what they did the year before? Kind of makes you wonder why they showed up and paid big bucks in 2005 for the WS considering it had been 46 years since they even went to one of those, and 88 since they actually won. 2006 was bigger because the team forced season ticket buys for WS tickets. And they won a World Series. Don't forget that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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