Jump to content
Sleepy Harold

White Sox acquire Joakim Soria, Luis Avilan and $3 Million

Recommended Posts

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 03:27 PM)
I didn't see any dissenting opinions. I can tell you when I had mine, it was the same reaction as with Soria. Also, not too many wanted to hear anything negative about Zach Duke. I don't know what it is with these guys that make posters fall in love?

 

Not seeing all this love. Just seeing people that think the move could work out, and if it doesn’t then it doesn’t cost much

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 09:27 PM)
I didn't see any dissenting opinions. I can tell you when I had mine, it was the same reaction as with Soria. Also, not too many wanted to hear anything negative about Zach Duke. I don't know what it is with these guys that make posters fall in love?

Currently the board is heavily tilted with fans of the front office, close to them doing no wrong (there are some posters not crazy bout the Rutherford trade, but that's been about the only dissent). This trade is fine cause I never heard of the guy we gave up and the one reliever may be useful. I would have been silent on the trade cept for the fact Soria has pitched out here and fans hate him as much as I did Rios. There's also the backup quarterback syndrome again and the lure of the mysterious. Plus apparently Soria's peripherals are still good. I still think blowing 7 saves is a decent chunk.

You know, everybody talks about his one horrid outing exploded his ERA. Doesn't it go both ways? How many times did he enter in a 7-1 game and pitch 1-2 perfect innings and those numbers also have to be included.

I trust you all that his peripherals are OK to good and he could improve. I said in my initial thread never underestimate Coop. I actually hope I'm wrong. If Soria returns to the old old Soria form and he's our closer and we are saving game after game, cool. White sox win the pennant would be fine with me!

Edited by greg775

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In 5 of 7 blown saves, Soria allowed 1 or 0 runs. Relievers will give up a run here or there. He only really had 2 very bad blown saves.

 

That's why context is important. Roberto Osuna had 10 blown saves this year but I'd take him closing games for the White Sox in a second.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 10:04 PM)
In 5 of 7 blown saves, Soria allowed 1 or 0 runs. Relievers will give up a run here or there. He only really had 2 very bad blown saves.

 

That's why context is important. Roberto Osuna had 10 blown saves this year but I'd take him closing games for the White Sox in a second.

Interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 03:47 PM)
Currently the board is heavily tilted with fans of the front office, close to them doing no wrong (there are some posters not crazy bout the Rutherford trade, but that's been about the only dissent). This trade is fine cause I never heard of the guy we gave up and the one reliever may be useful. I would have been silent on the trade cept for the fact Soria has pitched out here and fans hate him as much as I did Rios. There's also the backup quarterback syndrome again and the lure of the mysterious. Plus apparently Soria's peripherals are still good. I still think blowing 7 saves is a decent chunk.

You know, everybody talks about his one horrid outing exploded his ERA. Doesn't it go both ways? How many times did he enter in a 7-1 game and pitch 1-2 perfect innings and those numbers also have to be included.

I trust you all that his peripherals are OK to good and he could improve. I said in my initial thread never underestimate Coop. I actually hope I'm wrong. If Soria returns to the old old Soria form and he's our closer and we are saving game after game, cool. White sox win the pennant would be fine with me!

Nobody has been critical of Kenny Williams? How about the James Shields trade?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 04:04 PM)
In 5 of 7 blown saves, Soria allowed 1 or 0 runs. Relievers will give up a run here or there. He only really had 2 very bad blown saves.

 

That's why context is important. Roberto Osuna had 10 blown saves this year but I'd take him closing games for the White Sox in a second.

How do you have a blown save while not allowing a run to score?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 09:31 PM)
How do you have a blown save while not allowing a run to score?

 

It's either he meant earned run or accidentally entered 0.

Edited by soxfan2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 03:28 PM)
Yet if I or Greg write he sucks, there is a lot of backlash. We are arguing with math. You just don't want to hear anything that contradicts FIP or xFIP.

 

No, correction: if you or greg write he sucks FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER, you'll get backlash. It isn't that you're arguing with math, it's that you're arguing without making a point.

 

The whole reason this argument started was because you basically said "Soria sucks, otherwise the Royals wouldn't have dumped him for nothing," which would be about the weakest appeal to authority ever if it weren't for the fact that greg's argument was "Soria sucks, I know because I read Royals fans tweet bad things about him," thus taking the cake.

 

The one post a few pages back where you said something like "I don't think you can bet on a guy that's 34 with two TJs to bounce back like some others do" made a ton of f***ing sense and I accept wholeheartedly. In fact, just as I can see Hahn saying to himself, "I need bullpen veterans, lemme go grab a dude whose FIP was way lower than his ERA so hopefully I have some semblence of upside without paying up," I can totally see Moore saying to himself, "Soria's arm is about to fall off, I saw him resort to some new tricks that aren't going to last forever, I better move him now before the league catches up" or something. And I actually hadn't thought of that until your post.

 

None of us has any idea if he'll be good, but a productive conversation is people stating their views and then backing them up. If someone says I THINK THIS BECAUSE OF THESE REASONS and you respond with, essentially, NUH-UH WANNA BET? it's going to get a rise out of people every time.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 09:31 PM)
How do you have a blown save while not allowing a run to score?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure if a relief pitcher enters a game with the tying run on base from a previous reliever and allows them to score, they get charged with a blown save, but the run is charged to the previous pitcher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 10:40 PM)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure if a relief pitcher enters a game with the tying run on base from a previous reliever and allows them to score, they get charged with a blown save, but the run is charged to the previous pitcher.

Thats true. I took his comment as not allowing a runner to score, meaning any runner not just one he put on base.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 09:41 PM)
No, correction: if you or greg write he sucks FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER, you'll get backlash. It isn't that you're arguing with math, it's that you're arguing without making a point.

 

The whole reason this argument started was because you basically said "Soria sucks, otherwise the Royals wouldn't have dumped him for nothing," which would be about the weakest appeal to authority ever if it weren't for the fact that greg's argument was "Soria sucks, I know because I read Royals fans tweet bad things about him," thus taking the cake.

 

The one post a few pages back where you said something like "I don't think you can bet on a guy that's 34 with two TJs to bounce back like some others do" made a ton of f***ing sense and I accept wholeheartedly. In fact, just as I can see Hahn saying to himself, "I need bullpen veterans, lemme go grab a dude whose FIP was way lower than his ERA so hopefully I have some semblence of upside without paying up," I can totally see Moore saying to himself, "Soria's arm is about to fall off, I saw him resort to some new tricks that aren't going to last forever, I better move him now before the league catches up" or something. And I actually hadn't thought of that until your post.

 

None of us has any idea if he'll be good, but a productive conversation is people stating their views and then backing them up. If someone says I THINK THIS BECAUSE OF THESE REASONS and you respond with, essentially, NUH-UH WANNA BET? it's going to get a rise out of people every time.

I have given you reasons. You chose to ignore them, because they don't line up with your end all FIP and xFIP. We will find out in a couple of months.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 05:33 AM)
I have given you reasons. You chose to ignore them, because they don't line up with your end all FIP and xFIP. We will find out in a couple of months.

I mean, I don’t always agree with eminor3rd, but it’s pretty insane you keep repeating the bolded comment above. He has explicitly stated to you multiple times that those metrics aren’t the be all end all. And quite frankly, you really hadn’t given any reasons other than “he sucks” for the vast majority of this thread. That’s the reason why people were giving you s*** about this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 06:17 AM)
I mean, I don’t always agree with eminor3rd, but it’s pretty insane you keep repeating the bolded comment above. He has explicitly stated to you multiple times that those metrics aren’t the be all end all. And quite frankly, you really hadn’t given any reasons other than “he sucks” for the vast majority of this thread. That’s the reason why people were giving you s*** about this.

He kept mentioning them. I have told you, his past history, his age, I have watched him, I think strikeouts have jaded his advanced numbers, Javy Vazquez style, and his projections. I have written it several times.

 

But just think about it, his FIP and xFIP were good in 2017, better than in years. Why wasn't he worth anything in the trade market? If these are signs he is a top 25 reliever, why did KC have to include cash and one of their best relievers team controlled for 5 seasons to get rid of him?

 

And why, if he put up the exact same xFIP and FIP the first half of 2018, which no one would actually wager anything although they keep saying its' the best measure of what he will be, would he be worth considerably more than he is now with these numbers?

 

I think he sucks, you think he's an asset. Fine. I don't know why it bothers so many. You can tell me my reasons are stupid, that's fine too. I think pulling a xFIP at an age 33 season which was significantly better than any xFIP he put up in years is also stupid to use for projection. We'll see. I hope you're right.

Edited by Dick Allen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just amazed at the kind of play this relatively minor move has gotten. He's basically signed to a 1/7 deal with an option. Plus we got Avilian.

 

Maybe both guys regress from their peripherals. Does it even really matter? This trade doesn't prevent us from doing anything next year or even this year. It's a flyer like last year Holland signing was.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (wrathofhahn @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 08:51 AM)
I'm just amazed at the kind of play this relatively minor move has gotten. He's basically signed to a 1/7 deal with an option. Plus we got Avilian.

 

Maybe both guys regress from their peripherals. Does it even really matter? This trade doesn't prevent us from doing anything next year or even this year. It's a flyer like last year Holland signing was.

I don't think anyone has questioned the trade at all. Just a couple of us think Soria sucks, and a few more don't think he does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 07:41 AM)
He kept mentioning them. I have told you, his past history, his age, I have watched him, I think strikeouts have jaded his advanced numbers, Javy Vazquez style, and his projections. I have written it several times.

 

But just think about it, his FIP and xFIP were good in 2017, better than in years. Why wasn't he worth anything in the trade market? If these are signs he is a top 25 reliever, why did KC have to include cash and one of their best relievers team controlled for 5 seasons to get rid of him?

 

And why, if he put up the exact same xFIP and FIP the first half of 2018, which no one would actually wager anything although they keep saying its' the best measure of what he will be, would he be worth considerably more than he is now with these numbers?

 

I think he sucks, you think he's an asset. Fine. I don't know why it bothers so many. You can tell me my reasons are stupid, that's fine too. I think pulling a xFIP at an age 33 season which was significantly better than any xFIP he put up in years is also stupid to use for projection. We'll see. I hope you're right.

I still don’t agree with this “sucks” notion, at least when it comes to 2017. WAR isn’t a great way to evaluate relievers, but it still shows he wasn’t horrible at the very least. I think his peripherals & velocity last year show a chance of him becoming an asset. There are no guarantees and some of the facts you’ve brought up (age, injury history, etc) lately demonstrate why things may not work out for him next year. But I definitely think if his heathy & velocity holds, again both question marks, that he could actually become a valuable trade chip. I like his addition because he has more upside potential IMO than most pickups of this type.

 

As for why other teams didn’t trade for him, I can’t answer that. But Rosenthal clearly stated other teams were interested in him for the very reasons I stated above. Could just be that we finally ran out of teams willing to pay a guy like him $7M after so many relievers got huge deals this winter. Or maybe contenders simply wanted more certainty at that price point. Luckily for us we can roll the dice on him and hope he can flash a portion of what he once was for three or four months next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 06:33 AM)
I have given you reasons. You chose to ignore them, because they don't line up with your end all FIP and xFIP. We will find out in a couple of months.

 

You don't even read what I type, do you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 09:10 AM)
You don't even read what I type, do you?

 

Funny, I could say the same thing. I have provided you plenty of reasons for my view. You have said I have provided none. Sorry my view doesn't line up with the math, but sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I'm wrong and sometimes I'm right. But my view is my view. It really doesn't bother me you don't agree, or anyone else.

Edited by Dick Allen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 09:31 PM)
How do you have a blown save while not allowing a run to score?

 

 

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Jan 9, 2018 -> 10:40 PM)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure if a relief pitcher enters a game with the tying run on base from a previous reliever and allows them to score, they get charged with a blown save, but the run is charged to the previous pitcher.

 

Correct. In his blown save against the Angels, Soria allowed a hit to Ben Revere that scored an inherited runner. That was the only hit he allowed in 1.2 IP. He also allowed 2 walks, but one of them was walking that Trout guy intentionally, and he struck Pujols out with the bases loaded, so it worked out. He actually had a great outing that day other then allowing 1 inherited runner to score. He's human and inherited runners will score.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 10:13 AM)
Funny, I could say the same thing. I have provided you plenty of reasons for my view. You have said I have provided none. Sorry my view doesn't line up with the math, but sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I'm wrong and sometimes I'm right. But my view is my view. It really doesn't bother me you don't agree, or anyone else.

 

You literally responded to a post where I typed an entire paragraph acknowledging and giving you credit for your reasons with a response repeating that I am ignoring your reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 09:30 AM)
You literally responded to a post where I typed an entire paragraph acknowledging and giving you credit for your reasons with a response repeating that I am ignoring your reasons.

 

No, correction: if you or greg write he sucks FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER, you'll get backlash.

 

In the post you accused me of saying he sucks for no reason. I have reasons for all of my opinions. Kind of a meatball assumption on your part.

 

 

Edited by Dick Allen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 10:36 AM)
No, correction: if you or greg write he sucks FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER, you'll get backlash.

 

In the post you accused me of saying he sucks for no reason. I have reasons for all of my opinions. Kind of a meatball assumption on your part.

 

Dude you have to read past the first sentence. If you're not willing to do that, there's a limited amount of information that I can convey to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 10, 2018 -> 03:10 PM)
You don't even read what I type, do you?

Very few people read what people type. I am constantly amused at one or two sentences of a 10 paragraph post (by me) suddenly becomes my entire post and my entire position. Probably is a good reminder to keep posts short.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×