**President Trump 2018 Thread**

[Big Hurtin]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

 

he immediately undermined his walk-back though

this is Charlottesville all over again. say something horrendous, kinda-sorta walk it back by reading a statement written by your staff, immediately go back to what you originally said.

 

Another view showing what was crossed out

 

 

 

[illinilaw08]

27 minutes ago, raBBit said:

5.) I don't follow this at all. There is next to no sentiment around here speaking about the Trump-Russia ordeal with any semblance of reality. People are so brainwashed they laugh at people who say Trump isn't brainwashed by Putin and post links that don't even allege Trump is brainwashed by Putin as support. Yes, you said Trump didn't collude. That is why I asked you why you don't respond to the people living in the media-created reality. I don't know why you have the idea I expected you to respond to every post - I never said anything like that. I just asked why you've never made it more known. If you only got your news from this thread you would think Trump is shaping his policy by Russia after they financed his campaign. The people who read this forum but don't stay all that well-read in politics (other than social media headlines) actually think Russia is controlling Trump. People have posted that Putin has blackmail on Trump. All this garbage without evidence. The fact of the matter is foreign entities meddling in elections is routine. The other candidate got gobs of money from Saudi Arabia but some ads and emails are worth half a presidential term of distraction and wasted government spending. There is nothing about this situation that requires a fraction amount of the time it has been given. 

Puts on nerd lawyer glasses - there is evidence that Putin has blackmail on Trump in the form of the Steele Dossier.  Whether that evidence is credible is a completely different story.

As to the other bold re: Saudi Arabia, do you have a cite for that?  The closest that I can find is that Saudi Arabia donated to the Clinton Foundation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-charity.html

If that is what you are relying on, then it goes without saying that the Clinton campaign is a different entity than the Clinton Foundation.  

Trump has been much more pro-Russia than any President in our lifetimes.  He has attacked NATO.  He called the EU a foe.  He has hand waved away the annexation of the Crimean Penninsula.  And he repeatedly has accepted the word of Vladamir Putin over his own intelligence agencies regarding Russian interference in the last election.  There are a lot of reasons that Donald Trump might do that, and some of those potential reasons are benign.  But it does not change the fact that his policies have been harder on the EU and gentler on Russia than any President in our lifetime (and maybe since the War of 1812).

Last thing here, you know that the allegations against Russia go beyond "some ads and e-mails."  Russia hacked the DNC during the election for the benefit of Donald Trump (in one case attempting to phish Hillary Clinton the day after Trump asked Russia to do so at a campaign event per the Mueller indictments).  That's a big deal.  

[caulfield12]

52 minutes ago, raBBit said:

1.) You didn't. Others did. It's ridiculous.

2.) I never said anything about their competence. Their track record speaks for itself. Nothing Trump says gives Putin "ammo." Especially when Putin probably likes what Trump's saying. 

3.) It doesn't whatsoever. America's foreign policy is entirely abhorrent. Given the US's military action since the 60's, the rest of educated masses already think poorly of America as it is. A sitting US president taking exception to corruption in the American intelligence communities isn't going to change the opinions of outsiders for the worse. If you're so concerned with the rest of the world's opinion on America the real focus should be on America's disregard for other nations' sovereignty. The USA has been murdering millions the middle east for decades - starting wars without any provocation or legal support and a fake sense leadership based on hypocrisy. Our media has spent the last 2 years freaking out about Russian hackers' advertising efforts as if it is a huge deal. Meanwhile the CIA arms and funds rebels to murder a sovereign leader. The US starts a decade + long insurgency on account of made up CIA intel. The fact that the media can freak out about this stuff when they celebrated and covered the much more serious transgressions rendering significant countries in the middle east hell holes. We're not going to get anywhere with this. America's place in the world is shameful and I will support just about anything that scales it back. 

5.) I don't follow this at all. There is next to no sentiment around here speaking about the Trump-Russia ordeal with any semblance of reality. People are so brainwashed they laugh at people who say Trump isn't brainwashed by Putin and post links that don't even allege Trump is brainwashed by Putin as support. Yes, you said Trump didn't collude. That is why I asked you why you don't respond to the people living in the media-created reality. I don't know why you have the idea I expected you to respond to every post - I never said anything like that. I just asked why you've never made it more known. If you only got your news from this thread you would think Trump is shaping his policy by Russia after they financed his campaign. The people who read this forum but don't stay all that well-read in politics (other than social media headlines) actually think Russia is controlling Trump. People have posted that Putin has blackmail on Trump. All this garbage without evidence. The fact of the matter is foreign entities meddling in elections is routine. The other candidate got gobs of money from Saudi Arabia but some ads and emails are worth half a presidential term of distraction and wasted government spending. There is nothing about this situation that requires a fraction amount of the time it has been given. 

If not for the mainstream media coverage:

1) There wouldn’t have been an end to the Vietnam War

2) Watergate would have been successfully covered up

3)  the true depths of the evil going on during the Civil Rights movement in the South would have never seen the light of day

4)  there would have been no Church Committee pushing back on CIA-backed executions in Africa, Central/South America and the Caribbean 

The modern media has always been the greatest check on the expansion of absolute power...especially with the invention of radio,  television and finally, the Internet.

When did the media start becoming culpable, exactly?

Edited July 17, 2018 by caulfield12

[pcq]

9 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

In moments like these you have to put personal politics aside and examine the facts and evidence. Based on Trump's behavior and actions, both at home and abroad, you really can't come to any other rational conclusion other than he's Putin's puppet. He's giving Putin everything he wants and then some. I've tried to see if I could convince myself otherwise through an objective lens  but I just can't.

People like Trump and rabbit have a little problem. There are countless recordings of Trump saying the very things that he calls fake news. After hopelessly confusing the willfully ignorant they will stand united behind the pro-life and Confederacy flags. This will have a very bad ending. Uncle Louie didn't store up that gun collection to use on his right-wing neighbors. I regret to advise people that elections will not cure what ails them. If you did not get the message in 2000 or 2016 you will next time. 

[Dam8610]

Can someone please educate the media and others on what treason is? I don't like Trump, and I think Mueller could likely produce enough conspiracy charges against him to last five lifetimes, but treason requires the person being charged to be helping a country with which the United States is at declared or open war. And no, Russia hacking into the DNC does not constitute an act of war in the sense that it puts us at open war with them for the express purpose of charging Trump with treason. Again, I don't support Trump in any way and I think he's committed enough crimes to be locked up for the rest of his life and likely much longer, but because if the narrow definition of treason, it is not one of the crimes he's committed.

[Leonard Zelig]

21 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Can someone please educate the media and others on what treason is? I don't like Trump, and I think Mueller could likely produce enough conspiracy charges against him to last five lifetimes, but treason requires the person being charged to be helping a country with which the United States is at declared or open war. And no, Russia hacking into the DNC does not constitute an act of war in the sense that it puts us at open war with them for the express purpose of charging Trump with treason. Again, I don't support Trump in any way and I think he's committed enough crimes to be locked up for the rest of his life and likely much longer, but because if the narrow definition of treason, it is not one of the crimes he's committed.

When was the last time that was a possibility, WWII?

[The Beast]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

If not for the mainstream media coverage:

1) There wouldn’t have been an end to the Vietnam War

2) Watergate would have been successfully covered up

3)  the true depths of the evil going on during the Civil Rights movement in the South would have never seen the light of day

4)  there would have been no Church Committee pushing back on CIA-backed executions in Africa, Central/South America and the Caribbean 

The modern media has always been the greatest check on the expansion of absolute power...especially with the invention of radio,  television and finally, the Internet.

When did the media start becoming culpable, exactly?

When did conservatives start b****ing about the media and making it their rallying cry?

[G&T]

2 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

Can someone please educate the media and others on what treason is? I don't like Trump, and I think Mueller could likely produce enough conspiracy charges against him to last five lifetimes, but treason requires the person being charged to be helping a country with which the United States is at declared or open war. And no, Russia hacking into the DNC does not constitute an act of war in the sense that it puts us at open war with them for the express purpose of charging Trump with treason. Again, I don't support Trump in any way and I think he's committed enough crimes to be locked up for the rest of his life and likely much longer, but because if the narrow definition of treason, it is not one of the crimes he's committed.

 That’s not what the constitution says. Giving aid and comfort to an enemy is treason. Obviously that’s easier to define when war is declared so those are the cases brought.

Anyway, I’ll take money laundering. Seems less controversial. 

[caulfield12]

• Philip Vigol and John Mitchell, convicted of treason and sentenced to hanging; pardoned by George Washington; see Whiskey Rebellion.
• John Fries, the leader of Fries' Rebellion, convicted of treason in 1800 along with two accomplices, and pardoned that same year by John Adams.
• Governor Thomas Dorr 1844, convicted of treason against the state of Rhode Island; see Dorr Rebellion; released in 1845; civil rights restored in 1851; verdict annulled in 1854.
• John Brown, convicted of treason against the Commonwealth of Virginia in 1859 and executed for attempting to organize armed resistance to slavery.
• Aaron Dwight Stevens, took part in John Brown's raid and was executed in 1860 for treason against Virginia.
• William Bruce Mumford, convicted of treason and hanged in 1862 for tearing down a United States flag during the American Civil War.
• Walter Allen was convicted of treason on September 16, 1922 for taking part in the 1921 Miner's March with the coal companies and the US Army on Blair Mountain, West Virginia. He was sentenced to 10 years and fined. During his appeal to the Supreme Court he disappeared while out on bail. United Mineworkers of America leader William Blizzard was acquitted of the charge of treason by the jury on May 25, 1922.^[12]

 

 

[caulfield12]

Of course, you have the many cases of spying against the US or being double agents...but that’s a bit different from treason by a government officer/official/executive.

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
Ethel and Julius Rosenberg in 1951
Born	May 12, 1918 (Julius) September 25, 1915 (Ethel) Manhattan, New York City, New York, U.S. (both)
Died	June 19, 1953(aged 37) Ethel June 19, 1953(aged 35) Julius Ossining, New York, U.S. (both)
Resting place	Wellwood Cemetery Suffolk County, New York
Occupation	Actress, singer, secretary (Ethel); electrical engineer(Julius)
Criminal charge	Conspiracy to commit espionage
Criminal penalty	Death
Criminal status	Executed
Children	Michael Meeropol, Robert Meeropol

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were United States citizens who spied for the Soviet Unionand were tried, convicted, and executed by the Federal government of the United States. They provided top-secret information about radar, sonar, and jet propulsion engines to the USSR and were accused of transmitting nuclear weapon designs to the Soviet Union; at that time the United States was the only country in the world with nuclear weapons.^[1][2][3]

[BigSqwert]

Because he's a liar...

 

 

[caulfield12]

25 minutes ago, BigSqwert said:

Because he's a liar...

 

 

But the Democratic Party was for slavery and then segregation during Reconstruction.  It was the Republicans who freed the slaves.

That was the wisdom of a conservative talk show host on WOC 1420 in the Quad Cities on the topic of Trump/Russia tonight.  Oh, and Antifa/BLM are both terrorist groups.

 

[Dam8610]

11 hours ago, G&T said:

 That’s not what the constitution says. Giving aid and comfort to an enemy is treason. Obviously that’s easier to define when war is declared so those are the cases brought.

Anyway, I’ll take money laundering. Seems less controversial. 

"Enemy" for purposes of a treason charge is a country with which the United States is at declared or open war. Russia does not qualify as an "enemy" for purposes of a treason charge.

[Dam8610]

10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Of course, you have the many cases of spying against the US or being double agents...but that’s a bit different from treason by a government officer/official/executive.

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
Ethel and Julius Rosenberg in 1951
Born	May 12, 1918 (Julius) September 25, 1915 (Ethel) Manhattan, New York City, New York, U.S. (both)
Died	June 19, 1953(aged 37) Ethel June 19, 1953(aged 35) Julius Ossining, New York, U.S. (both)
Resting place	Wellwood Cemetery Suffolk County, New York
Occupation	Actress, singer, secretary (Ethel); electrical engineer(Julius)
Criminal charge	Conspiracy to commit espionage
Criminal penalty	Death
Criminal status	Executed
Children	Michael Meeropol, Robert Meeropol

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were United States citizens who spied for the Soviet Unionand were tried, convicted, and executed by the Federal government of the United States. They provided top-secret information about radar, sonar, and jet propulsion engines to the USSR and were accused of transmitting nuclear weapon designs to the Soviet Union; at that time the United States was the only country in the world with nuclear weapons.^[1][2][3]

Note the conviction is for conspiracy. Trump could likely be convicted of conspiracy many times over.

[BigSqwert]

8 minutes ago, raBBit said:

How much have they "donated" since HRC's election loss? Furthermore, how much have "donations" changed since November of 2016? It's not a charity let's drop the bs and call it what it is. 

Where is your outrage over Trump's tax returns?  Absolutely no transparency there, yet no concerns from you.  

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, raBBit said:

How much have they "donated" since HRC's election loss? Furthermore, how much have "donations" changed since November of 2016? It's not a charity let's drop the bs and call it what it is. 

And no different than all the foreign delegations staying at Trump’s hotel to curry favor with him.  Or this...

 

Donald Trump has blasted Hillary Clinton for accepting money from Saudi Arabia through her foundation, but a Daily News investigation reveals he has padded his bank account with cash from the same country.

Trump sold the 45th floor of Trump World Tower to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for $4.5 million in June 2001, according to a city Finance Department spokeswoman. In 2008, the apartments became part of the Saudi Mission to the United Nations, records show.

The five apartments included 10 bedrooms and 13 bathrooms at the time of the sale, and had yearly common charges of $85,585 for building amenities, documents obtained by The News show. If those common charges remain the same, Trump was paid at least $5.7 million by the Saudi government since 2001.

...

Saudi Arabia — and I get along great with all of them. They buy apartments from me," Trump said in Mobile, Ala.  "They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/exclusive-donald-trump-made-millions-saudi-government-article-1.2777211

[StrangeSox]

12 minutes ago, raBBit said:

How much have they "donated" since HRC's election loss? Furthermore, how much have "donations" changed since November of 2016? It's not a charity let's drop the bs and call it what it is. 

The Clinton Foundation has done a ton of actual, legitimate charity work around the globe. That doesn't preclude potential influence-peddling, but it is definitely a real charity.

[caulfield12]

All foreign governments hedge their bets and make “investments” in both Presidential candidates through various financial means.

Been that way since the beginning of time...not changing anytime soon.

 

We can debate the efficacy of the Clinton Foundation’s charitable results just as easily as we can Trump’s shady real estate and banking deals.

[illinilaw08]

12 minutes ago, raBBit said:

How much have they "donated" since HRC's election loss? Furthermore, how much have "donations" changed since November of 2016? It's not a charity let's drop the bs and call it what it is. 

Well, these are two separate issues.  The first is the issue with the Clinton Foundation receiving donations from foreign entities.  Is that great?  No, it isn't.  But I also don't see anything to suggest that it is illegal.   

The second is donations to campaigns.  It is illegal for a foreign government (or individual) to donate to a campaign.  If the Clinton Foundation and the Clinton Campaign are one in the same, that would be a problem.  If Saudi Arabia made direct contributions to the Clinton campaign, that would be a problem.  I don't see any evidence to suggest either are true.

But getting this back on track - Russia hacking the DNC in an effort to undermine Clinton and support Trump is infinite times worse than Saudi Arabia donating to the Clinton Foundation.  Since the election, Donald Trump has been the most pro-Russia President of our lifetimes.  You don't seem to care about that fact, but you sure care a lot about bad things you think Hillary Clinton did...

 

[StrangeSox]

3 minutes ago, illinilaw08 said:

Well, these are two separate issues.  The first is the issue with the Clinton Foundation receiving donations from foreign entities.  Is that great?  No, it isn't.  But I also don't see anything to suggest that it is illegal.   

The second is donations to campaigns.  It is illegal for a foreign government (or individual) to donate to a campaign.  If the Clinton Foundation and the Clinton Campaign are one in the same, that would be a problem.  If Saudi Arabia made direct contributions to the Clinton campaign, that would be a problem.  I don't see any evidence to suggest either are true.

But getting this back on track - Russia hacking the DNC in an effort to undermine Clinton and support Trump is infinite times worse than Saudi Arabia donating to the Clinton Foundation.  Since the election, Donald Trump has been the most pro-Russia President of our lifetimes.  You don't seem to care about that fact, but you sure care a lot about bad things you think Hillary Clinton did...

 

I don't think rabbit accepts that the DNC was hacked at all. The central claim of the Seth Rich conspiracy theory is that he was murdered for leaking the DNC files. As of last week, rabbit was still posting that the DNC wasn't hacked.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, StrangeSox said:

The Clinton Foundation has done a ton of actual, legitimate charity work around the globe. That doesn't preclude potential influence-peddling, but it is definitely a real charity.

That said, basically shuttering it after her political viability ended doesn’t exactly line them up with the Carters philanthropically, post-presidency.   They’re in their 70’s, but Carter is admirably still at it in his early 90’s.

But the CF did a lot in Africa and combined with Gates/UN Millenium Goals...so you could certainly argue MOST of it was legit, at the very least.  Still, more about speeches/fundraising than direct action programs, boots on the ground, so to speak.  Lots of collaborations, but the quantifiable outcomes are harder to assess from outside. 

[StrangeSox]

7 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Tell that to Haiti. 

The CF not being free from criticism or bad actions does not mean it did not do plenty of legitimate charity work that helped a lot of people.

 

e: I'm trying to see what their actual donations actually were, and I have to say, I absolutely hate this new trend in web development

https://2017.clintonfoundation.org/impact-report/

lots of vendors/manufacturers are going this way too. just give me a quick and easy set of links to the relevant documents!!! /rant

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by StrangeSox

[illinilaw08]

2 minutes ago, raBBit said:

You never answered my questions though. Is Saudi Arabia still feeling charitable with the Clinton Foundation? When did their charitable efforts end? How has the Clinton Foundation as a whole done in terms of donations in 2017-2018?

Ha!  Do you have access to the Clinton Foundation records?

What you are accusing Saudi Arabia of doing is not illegal.  It's not ideal (entities both foreign and domestic seeking access to politicians by virtue of donations to their campaigns or their charities are a problem), but it also isn't illegal unless it was directly to Clinton's campaign.

 

[Dick Allen]

Where can we find the financials of the Trump Foundation?

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Where can we find the financials of the Trump Foundation?

The NY state attorney general because the entire thing is currently being sued by the State of New York as having been run fraudulently for personal enrichment and as a tax exempt arm of their campaign.

And also on the Clinton foundation's 2017 financials, I'm no expert in when charities release their financial statements, but I do have the ability to look at dates when news stories were published. Here's at least 1 article on their 2016 financial report, dated November 20th of 2017.