Indians removing Chief Wahoo

[illinilaw08]

So a statue of great generals in history would be exploiting racist imaging but a statue of General Washington or any other President who owned slaves is not.

 

There are a lot of statues in the South honoring Confederate generals and other soldiers. There are significantly less statutes in the South honoring those who were slaves.

 

West Point can teach military tactics as much as they want. Our history classes should (and will) continue to teach the Civil War. Monuments honoring the men who fought a war to uphold the institution of slavery should not exist in public spaces.

 

Last point on this, we can honor Washington, Jefferson, and the other Founding Fathers who owned slaves for the brilliant political minds that they were while also pointing out that they owned slaves and continued a morally repugnant institution.

 

There's more room for nuance with the founding fathers than there is with Confederate monuments. Washington and Jefferson aren't being honored for their association with slavery, like Confederates are. They are honored for their part in founding the nation.

[bigruss]

So a statue of great generals in history would be exploiting racist imaging but a statue of General Washington or any other President who owned slaves is not.

Not sure how this shifted to statues, and not sure why statues would be a necessity to teach history either.

 

I think the statue argument is never going to be 100% correct on either side, but I also think it doesn't really apply in this conversation so I'm not going to go further into it.

[GoSox05]

You're clearly misinterpreting what I'm saying if you think I'm saying, "I'm not offended so it's wrong to change it!" I'm not trying to make an argument for keeping it or anything and I'm not making it about what I believe. I'm simply saying in a hypothetical scenario if no one from that race was/is offended, should it be considered offensive? Kinda going back to what the poster above said about changing the school's name in his region where they checked with the tribe who stated they weren't offended by it at all. I would say no.

 

Edit: I think Cleveland should come up with a new name for it's baseball team in general, especially if they can't even use the logo nor mascot. Bring back the Cleveland Spiders.

 

 

One thing I never understood about teams holding on to these weird old racist names and logos based on Native Americans. There are so many cool names to go with.

 

 

Cleveland Spiders was a really cool name. That would be bad ass if they changed to that now. I saw some of the alternate logos people did for the Redskins, some really cool ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

Lots of Casey Schroeder fans all up in here

[Jose Abreu]

Lots of Casey Schroeder fans all up in here

I was disappointed to see that Jake Burger liked his tweet, too.

 

"I blame it on liberal institutions and a lack of masculinity in America." -Schroeder

 

[ptatc]

Interesting discussion, but I think that there is subtext to Lee and other confederate generals. Washington, Jefferson, etc should definitely receive criticism for being slave owners. They also are afforded the defense of "they lived in a different time." But the 1840s were also a different time. Lee and Stonewall committed treason, to protect slavery. Again they are both afforded the defense of "they lived in a different time", but in the time they lived people were much more outspoken against slavery, and had Lee not resigned from his post in the US, who knows how history would have changed.

 

People are judged by their actions and the future is generally unkind to those who held power in the past. Even those who had "good" intentions, often are seen in a much more critical light because it is hard to justify their decisions when you live in a different time. Even Lincoln falls victim to this.

 

Confederates are responsible for almost as many American deaths as every other war/conflict the US has been involved combined. That is something that you cant defend, no matter what time they lived in.

I agree with this. It's the people who see everything related to the Confederacy as slavery. There was much more to it. The treason part is where it always catches me. However, in the military there is always the "following orders" orders defense. Which doesn't work here as they could have been in the union army.

[ptatc]

Not sure how this shifted to statues, and not sure why statues would be a necessity to teach history either.

 

I think the statue argument is never going to be 100% correct on either side, but I also think it doesn't really apply in this conversation so I'm not going to go further into it.

It was in response to the poster who said in effect "you don't have a problem with the Indians logo, do you keep statues of Conferderates in your house"

[Brian]

I was disappointed to see that Jake Burger liked his tweet, too.

 

"I blame it on liberal institutions and a lack of masculinity in America." -Schroeder

 

 

You're not a man if you ain't racist!!!

[G&T]

Always got to play that “white man” card. What would you say to the millions of white people who aren’t offended by Notre Dame’s nickname? I’m all for this logo getting scrapped because of its racist undertones, but please stop playing the “white man” card anytime someone isn’t outraged by something. I’m sure there are plenty of other people of varying races & genders who gives two s***s about this logo.

 

If a British team used the fighting Irish, I think the Irish would be offended.

[FT35]

You're clearly misinterpreting what I'm saying if you think I'm saying, "I'm not offended so it's wrong to change it!" I'm not trying to make an argument for keeping it or anything and I'm not making it about what I believe. I'm simply saying in a hypothetical scenario if no one from that race was/is offended, should it be considered offensive? Kinda going back to what the poster above said about changing the school's name in his region where they checked with the tribe who stated they weren't offended by it at all. I would say no.

 

Edit: I think Cleveland should come up with a new name for it's baseball team in general, especially if they can't even use the logo nor mascot. Bring back the Cleveland Spiders.

 

And I think you are hitting on some key points. If it's important to a particular group, let them come forward and make their voices heard and let's all work together to find a solution so the new name can reflect resolution by 2 sides to extinguish something felt as racism. But don't go forging ahead supercharged with racist claims and completely leave out the group that's supposed to be offended from the resolution or assume they want it to be changed. And honestly, there is great strength in the Native American population to fight and win a battle like this. They don't NEED help...but you better bet if they set out to end slurs like that and ran into injustice in their attempts, THAT'S WHEN they would gain steam from the silent majority who would rise and fight with them until a resolution was found that kept the intended integrity and honor in place. The renaming of the school in THIS case, turned out to be a solution in search of a problem.

 

The school story ended like this: the kids in the school voted on 3 finalist names and the Native American tribes got to choose the winning name--the name Legends was chosen in reference to the Native Americans--to keep the honor in tact, but to drop the Redskins phrase that some could find as derogatory. But honestly, no one really came out "ahead" because no one was super offended by the name to begin with--and all it did was raise our taxes to help fund the re-branding of the school! I'm ALL for working together to better the place we live, and no one wants anyone to live in a state of suppression or as the object of racism. Let's just make sure we're fighting the real fights out there and not dumping our resources into a small, unrelated group of people who are piggy backing on a minority by self-creating drama so they can have something to post about on their social media pages that riles everyone up. Ladies and Gentlemen...THOSE are the truly divisive people--as their number 1 goal is to create or increase division rather than bringing people together. Don't fall for it...get the truth, the real story from both sides and see if there's even a problem! Many times there isn't. There are better ways to allocate valuable resources than dumping them into something that doesn't stand to produce true gain.

[Jenksismyhero]

Native Americans are more worried about food, water, jobs, money, preventing and treating alcohol/drug addiction, etc. than names that people came up with decades and decades ago that have now become part of the general lexicon without the racist connection. However, that doesn't mean it's unreasonable for NA's to be offended or that it's the end of the world if a private company decides to make a change. I think it's unnecessary, but whatever, if they want to do it, go for it. I objected and still object to the U of I's decision to get rid of the Chief, a beloved mascot that was honored and respected, because a few select liberal professors b****ed and whined, but whatever, there's no going back.

 

On the statue issue, I'd like to see the FDR statues/monuments removed. The dude rounded up a bunch of people and put them in camps because they looked different. In the modern era no less. How is no one talking about this?

[Quin]

You're not a man if you ain't racist!!!

 

Got a good laugh out of the fan telling him to focus on raising that .201 average

[illinilaw08]

Native Americans are more worried about food, water, jobs, money, preventing and treating alcohol/drug addiction, etc. than names that people came up with decades and decades ago that have now become part of the general lexicon without the racist connection. However, that doesn't mean it's unreasonable for NA's to be offended or that it's the end of the world if a private company decides to make a change. I think it's unnecessary, but whatever, if they want to do it, go for it. I objected and still object to the U of I's decision to get rid of the Chief, a beloved mascot that was honored and respected, because a few select liberal professors b****ed and whined, but whatever, there's no going back.

On the statue issue, I'd like to see the FDR statues/monuments removed. The dude rounded up a bunch of people and put them in camps because they looked different. In the modern era no less. How is no one talking about this?

 

This isn't even close to a true recitation of what happened with the Chief. I was a HUGE fan of the Chief. Got chills when he danced to the end. But it was a tradition that offended a lot of people, and it needed to go.

 

Also, I, too, remember all those memorials to FDR for interning Japanese-Americans. I mean, come on, Jenks. This is the same BUT THE FOUNDING FATHERS OWNED SLAVES stuff that's a non-sequitur. FDR isn't being honored for the internment. In fact, it's generally regarded as a massive stain on his Presidency. But that's still completely and utterly different than statues and monuments that honor Confederate soldiers and generals for actually fighting to maintain the institution of slavery!

[GoSox05]

Native Americans are more worried about food, water, jobs, money, preventing and treating alcohol/drug addiction, etc. than names that people came up with decades and decades ago that have now become part of the general lexicon without the racist connection. However, that doesn't mean it's unreasonable for NA's to be offended or that it's the end of the world if a private company decides to make a change. I think it's unnecessary, but whatever, if they want to do it, go for it. I objected and still object to the U of I's decision to get rid of the Chief, a beloved mascot that was honored and respected, because a few select liberal professors b****ed and whined, but whatever, there's no going back.

 

On the statue issue, I'd like to see the FDR statues/monuments removed. The dude rounded up a bunch of people and put them in camps because they looked different. In the modern era no less. How is no one talking about this?

 

 

What will the students of U of I do without their beloved mascot. The guy who dressed up like a Native American and danced around the basketball court.

[StrangeSox]

I wasn't ever "offended" but I always thought 'The Chief' was dumb and corny as hell

[ptatc]

Native Americans are more worried about food, water, jobs, money, preventing and treating alcohol/drug addiction, etc. than names that people came up with decades and decades ago that have now become part of the general lexicon without the racist connection. However, that doesn't mean it's unreasonable for NA's to be offended or that it's the end of the world if a private company decides to make a change. I think it's unnecessary, but whatever, if they want to do it, go for it. I objected and still object to the U of I's decision to get rid of the Chief, a beloved mascot that was honored and respected, because a few select liberal professors b****ed and whined, but whatever, there's no going back.

 

On the statue issue, I'd like to see the FDR statues/monuments removed. The dude rounded up a bunch of people and put them in camps because they looked different. In the modern era no less. How is no one talking about this?

Do you see the article about the professor possibly getting in trouble due to filming the Chief in the restroom? It is hilarious.

[ptatc]

I wasn't ever "offended" but I always thought 'The Chief' was dumb and corny as hell

Are you racist for calling an authentic Native american dance "corny"

[southsider2k5]

Native Americans are more worried about food, water, jobs, money, preventing and treating alcohol/drug addiction, etc. than names that people came up with decades and decades ago that have now become part of the general lexicon without the racist connection. However, that doesn't mean it's unreasonable for NA's to be offended or that it's the end of the world if a private company decides to make a change. I think it's unnecessary, but whatever, if they want to do it, go for it. I objected and still object to the U of I's decision to get rid of the Chief, a beloved mascot that was honored and respected, because a few select liberal professors b****ed and whined, but whatever, there's no going back.

 

On the statue issue, I'd like to see the FDR statues/monuments removed. The dude rounded up a bunch of people and put them in camps because they looked different. In the modern era no less. How is no one talking about this?

 

Start with Andrew Jackson if you want to talk Indian issues. And that dude is on our currency.

[Jenksismyhero]

This isn't even close to a true recitation of what happened with the Chief. I was a HUGE fan of the Chief. Got chills when he danced to the end. But it was a tradition that offended a lot of people, and it needed to go.

 

Also, I, too, remember all those memorials to FDR for interning Japanese-Americans. I mean, come on, Jenks. This is the same BUT THE FOUNDING FATHERS OWNED SLAVES stuff that's a non-sequitur. FDR isn't being honored for the internment. In fact, it's generally regarded as a massive stain on his Presidency. But that's still completely and utterly different than statues and monuments that honor Confederate soldiers and generals for actually fighting to maintain the institution of slavery!

 

"a lot of people" = a very small minority of students that attended the school. And their complaints didn't go anywhere for decades until school faculty and administrators got involved and continued pushing the issue, despite court rulings, ncaa findings, etc. But whatever, it's old history now and there's no going back.

 

Yes, obviously FDR and the Founding Fathers are different from the confederate generals and soldiers. I'm not arguing that. But it's a massive stain on his presidency that, from my recollection being at the monument, isn't mentioned anywhere. Why not? If you're not going to remove his memorials, at least mention it. Point it out.

[Jenksismyhero]

I wasn't ever "offended" but I always thought 'The Chief' was dumb and corny as hell

 

I grew up with it as a kid and going to games and watching the war chant/dance gave me chills every time. It was fun. It got the crowd into games. Corny or not, it served a purpose. Halftime is sterile as hell now.

[Jenksismyhero]

Do you see the article about the professor possibly getting in trouble due to filming the Chief in the restroom? It is hilarious.

 

Yes, and it's pathetic the school isn't even admonishing him for what he did. Take away the bathroom aspect of it (illegal) and it's still a professor GOING AFTER A STUDENT. How is that acceptable?

[Jenksismyhero]

Start with Andrew Jackson if you want to talk Indian issues. And that dude is on our currency.

 

But the Battle of New Orleans!

 

 

[illinilaw08]

Are you racist for calling an authentic Native american dance "corny"

 

It wasn't authentic...

[StrangeSox]

Start with Andrew Jackson if you want to talk Indian issues. And that dude is on our currency.

 

The previous admin was going to replace him with Tubman, but the current admin decided not to.

[Jenksismyhero]

It wasn't authentic...

 

It's no flaming spear being thrown into the ground while riding bare-back on a horse like Florida State, but they did research and based it off of the dances of plain indians, right?