2018 White Sox catch-all thread

[pcq]

Some teams are good at acquiring quality vets. Melky did fairly well but the others not so much. Pitching acquisitions have been better. The current mess cannot compete at all it seems. 

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, pcq said:

Some teams are good at acquiring quality vets. Melky did fairly well but the others not so much. Pitching acquisitions have been better. The current mess cannot compete at all it seems. 

This mess was never meant to compete.  I am not sure why anyone would have thought it was.

[bmags]

The Kenny Williams era of competing seemed to crater when the MLB aging curve seemed to get a lot harsher around 2010.

[BamaDoc]

Oddly, fill in vets now may represent a market inefficiency.  Not advocating it now as we need to try out and see which scraps may be useful but what we traded prospects for in the past now are readily available in the spring at a discount.  I think you will see the market stabilize as non all-stars take the qualifying offers, exercise player options, or accept discount deals from current team rather than hit free agency.  There may be teams that get burned giving qualifying offers to players hoping for draft picks but get "stuck" with the player.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, BamaDoc said:

Oddly, fill in vets now may represent a market inefficiency.  Not advocating it now as we need to try out and see which scraps may be useful but what we traded prospects for in the past now are readily available in the spring at a discount.  I think you will see the market stabilize as non all-stars take the qualifying offers, exercise player options, or accept discount deals from current team rather than hit free agency.  There may be teams that get burned giving qualifying offers to players hoping for draft picks but get "stuck" with the player.

What team that did this last offseason is succeeding? The team that I thought did this the most was the Twins. 

[greg775]

4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

This mess was never meant to compete.  I am not sure why anyone would have thought it was.

Must be nice to have a job (Hahn, KW) where you can assemble a mess and be told u are doing a great job. Loss after loss and you'd get a standing ovation in a sox board room and at a Sox fan gathering. Let's see if RH and KW can do enough wheeling and dealing when we get good to put us in contention. There will be a lot of tinkering to do. Our prospects aren't going to be enough unless our next two first round draft picks (2018, 2019) are Trout-like or Sale-like players.

Edited May 18, 2018 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Must be nice to have a job (Hahn, KW) where you can assemble a mess and be told u are doing a great job. Loss after loss and you'd get a standing ovation in a sox board room and at a Sox fan gathering. Let's see if RH and KW can do enough wheeling and dealing when we get good to put us in contention. There will be a lot of tinkering to do. Our prospects aren't going to be enough unless our next two first round draft picks (2018, 2019) are Trout-like or Sale-like players.

If Greg was a builder, he wouldn't worry about building a foundation, only the street facing side.

If Greg was a newspaper writer he'd only write headlines. 

If Greg built cars, he wouldn't put engines in them.

If Greg wrote books, he'd only design dust jackets.

If Greg wrote a dissertation,  he'd only make a pretty cover page.

This has been another lesson in Greg only caring about how it looks on the surface and not giving a damn about what goes into things.

[WBWSF]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Must be nice to have a job (Hahn, KW) where you can assemble a mess and be told u are doing a great job. Loss after loss and you'd get a standing ovation in a sox board room and at a Sox fan gathering. Let's see if RH and KW can do enough wheeling and dealing when we get good to put us in contention. There will be a lot of tinkering to do. Our prospects aren't going to be enough unless our next two first round draft picks (2018, 2019) are Trout-like or Sale-like players.

If Hahn had been working as a GM for another team he would  have been gone  by now. This will be his 6th year as GM and the team hasn't had one winning season. I will say this much for him, he has evidently won the heart of JR.

[soxfan49]

10 hours ago, WBWSF said:

If Hahn had been working as a GM for another team he would  have been gone  by now. This will be his 6th year as GM and the team hasn't had one winning season. I will say this much for him, he has evidently won the heart of JR.

Typically I'd say to throw out the other seasons, but since you so badly don't want to, you do realize what those teams looked like, right? They looked exactly how you want the 2018 team to look- a mix of young players and vets, vying to compete in a division where (as you would say) "anything can happen! sneak in the playoffs and win it all!"

But I'll give the benefit of the doubt and actually throw it out. You can't judge Hahn on what happened from 2013-2016 (but again, if you really want to, those teams were filled with veteran players, so why are you so upset with how he constructed those teams?). Hell, even 2017-now, you can't judge him. These are truly what they said they would be- throw away seasons to grow and develop prospects all the while playing some former decent-good prospects to see if they find a diamond in the rough.

I'm not sure what your guys' point is, but I'm starting to wonder if you and Greg are the same person. Either way, it's super annoying. It's not even an opinion anymore. The fact is, the Sox have tried the veteran/youth mixture already and it hasn't worked. No team goes that route anymore. Give it up.

Edited May 18, 2018 by soxfan49

[joejoedairy]

According to Steve Greenberg of the Sun-Times, Yolmer might get some time in the Outfield. Ricky says it is in the infant stages. Clearly they want him to be the super sub zobrist type on their future contending teams. 

LINK

[Kyyle23]

I am fairly confident in saying that yolmer could play left better than Delmonico in pretty much any setting

[Thad Bosley]

44 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

Typically I'd say to throw out the other seasons, but since you so badly don't want to, you do realize what those teams looked like, right? They looked exactly how you want the 2018 team to look- a mix of young players and vets, vying to compete in a division where (as you would say) "anything can happen! sneak in the playoffs and win it all!"

But I'll give the benefit of the doubt and actually throw it out. You can't judge Hahn on what happened from 2013-2016 (but again, if you really want to, those teams were filled with veteran players, so why are you so upset with how he constructed those teams?). Hell, even 2017-now, you can't judge him. These are truly what they said they would be- throw away seasons to grow and develop prospects all the while playing some former decent-good prospects to see if they find a diamond in the rough.

I'm not sure what your guys' point is, but I'm starting to wonder if you and Greg are the same person. Either way, it's super annoying. It's not even an opinion anymore. The fact is, the Sox have tried the veteran/youth mixture already and it hasn't worked. No team goes that route anymore. Give it up.

The point is of course you can judge Hahn on the results of the past six years, the past six years of arguably as bad a stretch of White Sox baseball as there has been in the team's entire history.  I don't know if you noticed, but he has been the GM during that entire time, so who the hell else do you judge for the dismal results?  If you want to spread the blame equally across Williams and the owner, sure, go ahead.  But don't make ridiculous claims that the main architect of each of those ball clubs from 2013 to the present is somehow not to blame for all of the losing we've witnessed over this period of time.  

Edited May 18, 2018 by Fan O'Faust

[bmags]

15 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I am fairly confident in saying that yolmer could play left better than Delmonico in pretty much any setting

I think Yolmer could play catcher better than ours.

[soxfan49]

15 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

The point is of course you can judge Hahn on the results of the past six years, the past six years of arguably as bad a stretch of White Sox baseball as there has been in the team's entire history.  I don't know if you noticed, but he has been the GM during that entire time, so who the hell else do you judge for the dismal results?  If you want to spread the blame equally across Williams and the owner, sure, go ahead.  But don't make ridiculous claims that the main architect of each of those ball clubs from 2013 to the present is somehow not to blame for all of the losing we've witnessed over this period of time.  

Well yes, his results from 2013-2016 sucked ass and he should be blame, but WBWSF wants this roster constructed exactly as those teams were- a group of vets (Dunn, Eaton, Sale, Quintana, Danks) mixed with up and coming players (Abreu, Avi, Beckham), so it's hard for someone like WBWSF and Greg to say "he has stunk every year!" after he structured the team exactly how they wanted him to. What I'm trying to say is: it's surprising that those 2 posters are upset with his teams from 2013-2016.

You can absolutely blame him for 2017-2018, but again, they admitted to a rebuild. No matter the GM, last year's and this year's roster would suck.

Edited May 18, 2018 by soxfan49

[flavum]

6 minutes ago, Tony said:

You can absolutely judge Hahn for those years, and he should be judged. The Sox should have been better teams with a Sale-Q-Abreu-Eaton foundation. No way around it. It’s not really an argument. 

However, the Sox are in the middle of a rebuild right now. That’s the facts. Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams are responsible for it. We know JR is going to let them see it through.

So....Get over it. There is a group of posters, yourself very much included, that seemingly only post to criticize the front office, and any fan that defends them. NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE RIGHT NOW. Hahn and Co. aren’t going anywhere until 2020 AT THE EARLIEST. So either accept it and hope Hahn’s gets it right, or do something else with your time. 

Word.

The front office got the ok to blow it up and start from scratch- and that takes years. We’re all in a position now to find out if the “critical mass” of moves will prove to create a winning window from 2021-2025...and maybe 2020 if we’re fortunate.

But if after 2020 it looks really bad still, then everyone has to go. We just have to  have faith it works because that’s the reality of the situation.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, flavum said:

Word.

The front office got the ok to blow it up and start from scratch- and that takes years. We’re all in a position now to find out if the “critical mass” of moves will prove to create a winning window from 2021-2025...and maybe 2020 if we’re fortunate.

But if after 2020 it looks really bad still, then everyone has to go. We just have to  have faith it works because that’s the reality of the situation.

This is fair to theFO people. The ownership can't have them rebuild and immdiately fire them for a poor record. As painful as it is to watch, they get a few years to see how the prospects develop at the MLB level.

[bmags]

I was not a fan of our FO for a while because they kept making shortsighted and bad decisions, but then that same group started making more productive and good decisions that I agreed with, and so I'm more supportive.

I still wish they were more aggressive at pushing the boundaries of player acquisition like with LatAm, I'm not sure they'll ever be out in front of anything, but I think our development has improved, our scouting has improved. We'll see. 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

I was not a fan of our FO for a while because they kept making shortsighted and bad decisions, but then that same group started making more productive and good decisions that I agreed with, and so I'm more supportive.

I still wish they were more aggressive at pushing the boundaries of player acquisition like with LatAm, I'm not sure they'll ever be out in front of anything, but I think our development has improved, our scouting has improved. We'll see. 

Where do you think those decisions were made? It wasn't the FO. KW said each year he presented the ownership with 2 plans. One to try to build on the current team and one to tear it down and start to rebuild. The ownership always decided on the current team instead of the rebuild. Maybe RH is just more persuasive. He certainly has a more laid back personality.

[bmags]

46 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Where do you think those decisions were made? It wasn't the FO. KW said each year he presented the ownership with 2 plans. One to try to build on the current team and one to tear it down and start to rebuild. The ownership always decided on the current team instead of the rebuild. Maybe RH is just more persuasive. He certainly has a more laid back personality.

To me the ability of a front office to sell a vision to their ownership is a part of being successful, but also they were failing at executing the ownerships own plan. Despite them being in a mindset that had limited chance to succeed, they were also just executing it poorly.

[FT35]

57 minutes ago, bmags said:

To me the ability of a front office to sell a vision to their ownership is a part of being successful, but also they were failing at executing the ownerships own plan. Despite them being in a mindset that had limited chance to succeed, they were also just executing it poorly.

Ownership also might not have liked the details of a KW rebuild.  I think what ultimately sold them on RH's plan was the timing of it and how all sorts of details came together around the league to create the perfect storm for the Sox.  Had they set out down that path 2 years ago, it wouldn't have been nearly as productive in my opinion.  The fact that it came at a time when the conteding teams were also the large market teams who also had the top farm systems--at a time where we held the most valuable positional assets on several players in high-value/high-demand positions (SP, RP)--with very little competition from a weak FA class--not to mention very few other full-on rebuilding teams to contend with.  It was a "fool-proof" as it gets from a timing perspective.  

Edited May 18, 2018 by FT35

[pcq]

21 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

This mess was never meant to compete.  I am not sure why anyone would have thought it was.

Sure.

[kwolf68]

Ok---noticed Dylan Covey has been on a bit of a roll, 19 strike outs in his last 17 innings, 3 total ER in his last 4 starts. And his overall numbers in AAA thus far this year are respectable. His major league start a couple weeks ago was not bad. 

Is there anything there? 

Edited May 18, 2018 by kwolf68

[joejoedairy]

10 minutes ago, kwolf68 said:

Ok---noticed Dylan Covey has been on a bit of a roll, 19 strike outs in his last 17 innings, 3 total ER in his last 4 starts. And his overall numbers in AAA thus far this year are respectable. His major league start a couple weeks ago was not bad. 

Is there anything there? 

I wouldn't mind if they gave him a shot. It's not like bumping Santiago to the bullpen is going to hurt anything.

[kwolf68]

Yea, it's not like the Sox have too many (quality) SPs at this point. Hilarious to consider is James Shields is the most dependable starter, no one else really is, so it's not like there shouldn't be some options to consider. I don't know anything at all about Covey just what I read.  

[southsider2k5]