ptatc Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 4 hours ago, caulfield12 said: I guess the real question is whether or not that's good enough for JR and the fan base, which might be left with only the Padres having a longer playoff drought if the M's can get in this season... Since JR approved the rebuild, he will need to be patient enough for those players to reach the MLB. If the players acquired in the last 2 years fail, the entire FO should go. In. Realistic timeline that another 2-3 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, ptatc said: Since JR approved the rebuild, he will need to be patient enough for those players to reach the MLB. If the players acquired in the last 2 years fail, the entire FO should go. In. Realistic timeline that another 2-3 years. Mid 2020... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 39 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Mid 2020... Its somewhat difficult to make the playoffs in the middle of the season. However if they consider this year 2, 5 years would be 2021. That would give minor league players 3 years in the minors plus one for MLB seasoning and playoffs the following year for reference to your lack of playoff appearances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 What I mean is that it should be clear whether that 2020 team is going to be able to AT THE VERY LEAST compete for a playoff spot in the 2nd half of the season. Once upon a time in this rebuild timeline, everyone was saying we should be a playoff team in 2020, but the slow start/injuries seems to have pushed that back to 2021 now? It was also conventional wisdom that we would be adding significant pieces beginning in the offseason following the 2018 season...now that seems to be somewhat up in the air. As it is right now, I’m not sure we even have a single 3+ fWAR player on the roster. Moncada and Anderson...maybe...but still a ton of question marks after Eloy Jimenez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 38 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: What I mean is that it should be clear whether that 2020 team is going to be able to AT THE VERY LEAST compete for a playoff spot in the 2nd half of the season. Once upon a time in this rebuild timeline, everyone was saying we should be a playoff team in 2020, but the slow start/injuries seems to have pushed that back to 2021 now? It was also conventional wisdom that we would be adding significant pieces beginning in the offseason following the 2018 season...now that seems to be somewhat up in the air. As it is right now, I’m not sure we even have a single 3+ fWAR player on the roster. Moncada and Anderson...maybe...but still a ton of question marks after Eloy Jimenez. The 2021 five year plan was always the expected typical process. Many people reduced it to 2020 due to some of the advanced prospects acquired in the trades, Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, Jimenez and Kopech specifically. That is still possible. However to expect many of the drafted playeŕs to be ready, the 2021 timeline is reasonable so the FO in my view gets that time. No playoffs by 2021, bye bye FO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Parque Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 I love it. The same people declaring Moncada to be a god in April are the ones declaring that he’s on the verge of busting. The most frustrating part of this rebuild is not the losing, it’s the fans. For God’s sake, Moncada is in his first year in the big leagues, Kopech is 22 years old, and no one else vital to this rebuild has a done anything to be deemed a failure! Do the White Sox develop players like Atlanta and the Yankees? No does that mean that this rebuild is proving unsuccessful? Not even close, get a grip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 26 minutes ago, Butter Parque said: I love it. The same people declaring Moncada to be a god in April are the ones declaring that he’s on the verge of busting. The most frustrating part of this rebuild is not the losing, it’s the fans. For God’s sake, Moncada is in his first year in the big leagues, Kopech is 22 years old, and no one else vital to this rebuild has a done anything to be deemed a failure! Do the White Sox develop players like Atlanta and the Yankees? No does that mean that this rebuild is proving unsuccessful? Not even close, get a grip To be fair, Kopech has a 5+ ERA in Triple A. The excuses for Moncada- raw, not much time against big league pitching, tons of pressure to be "the guy"- can't be said for Kopech. He's had plenty of time to develop in the US. That ERA is pretty discouraging, no matter if you're an optimist, pessimist or somewhere in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 9 hours ago, Jose Abreu said: The same Albies who has negative defensive value for the season and a .593 OPS over the last month? Wow, he sounds sensational. Dude Moncada has a 556 OPS over the last month. Albies is also two years younger than Moncada and has already leapfrogged him. Albies only cost the Braves 350K too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 9 hours ago, Jose Abreu said: The same Albies who has negative defensive value for the season and a .593 OPS over the last month? Wow, he sounds sensational. And this is the whole point. A lot of guys like this, especially ones who fly through the minors, eventually hit a wall. It isn't just a Moncada or White Sox thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Parque Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, tlongo81@gmail.com said: Dude Moncada has a 556 OPS over the last month. Albies is also two years younger than Moncada and has already leapfrogged him. Albies only cost the Braves 350K too. This is frightening. We’re comparing the outlook of players based upon their first year in the big leagues. Do you know how idiotic this is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, tlongo81@gmail.com said: Dude Moncada has a 556 OPS over the last month. Albies is also two years younger than Moncada and has already leapfrogged him. Albies only cost the Braves 350K too. That's great. So there are two players that have horrible numbers, and apparently you think the other one is much better. Congrats Haven't even brought defense and baserunning value into this but honestly Moncada may even be the more valuable player right now even in the funk he's in. Edited June 15, 2018 by Jose Abreu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Parque Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 16 minutes ago, soxfan49 said: To be fair, Kopech has a 5+ ERA in Triple A. The excuses for Moncada- raw, not much time against big league pitching, tons of pressure to be "the guy"- can't be said for Kopech. He's had plenty of time to develop in the US. That ERA is pretty discouraging, no matter if you're an optimist, pessimist or somewhere in between. Going into last night he had a FIP of 3.60. He wasn’t bad. Actually, after last night his FIP is still under 4. Disappointing yes. Reason to really panic? Nah. He has things to work on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 40 minutes ago, tlongo81@gmail.com said: Dude Moncada has a 556 OPS over the last month. Albies is also two years younger than Moncada and has already leapfrogged him. Albies only cost the Braves 350K too. Have you ever looked at the talent disparity between these two players? Albies is a nice player, there's a chance he's better in the long run, but there are very good reasons to prefer Moncada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: I lost you at you’ve got more faith in Giolito than Kopech. You're way too negative about him. Go read my PSA in the Giolito thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunt Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Moncada has put up 2.2 fWAR in just under his first full season. There are some frustrating parts to his game, but fucking relax people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Butter Parque said: This is frightening. We’re comparing the outlook of players based upon their first year in the big leagues. Do you know how idiotic this is? My original point that was Moncada's stock is down from this time last year when he was the "supposed" #1 prospect in baseball. I hope he turns it around soon, but his arrow is currently pointing down while younger dudes like Albies and Torres have leapfrogged him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said: That's great. So there are two players that have horrible numbers, and apparently you think the other one is much better. Congrats Haven't even brought defense and baserunning value into this but honestly Moncada may even be the more valuable player right now even in the funk he's in. I do think Albies is the better player. He is also two years younger which doesn't seem to matter to you. Do you also think that Moncada is a better player than Torres from NY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, tlongo81@gmail.com said: I do think Albies is the better player. He is also two years younger which doesn't seem to matter to you. Do you also think that Moncada is a better player than Torres from NY? Fortunes rise and fall with young toolsy guys in MLB. Look at Sano, who coming off a 2.3 fWAR season (wRC+ 124) is now being sent down to A ball to work himself out. What has been shown to us in a 1/3 of a seasonmay be far from what we see this time next year. I'd give these guys a 2-3 year sample before concluding too much either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 21 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Fortunes rise and fall with young toolsy guys in MLB. Look at Sano, who coming off a 2.3 fWAR season (wRC+ 124) is now being sent down to A ball to work himself out. What has been shown to us in a 1/3 of a seasonmay be far from what we see this time next year. I'd give these guys a 2-3 year sample before concluding too much either way. Was Sano ever the #1 prospect in baseball? The expectations for Moncada should be sky-high. The Sox need him to be a stud. He is one of the anchors of the rebuild. If Moncada pulls a Sano and ends up back in the minors then Hahn and company should be given the axe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Fortunes rise and fall with young toolsy guys in MLB. Look at Sano, who coming off a 2.3 fWAR season (wRC+ 124) is now being sent down to A ball to work himself out. What has been shown to us in a 1/3 of a seasonmay be far from what we see this time next year. I'd give these guys a 2-3 year sample before concluding too much either way. Plenty of examples of year-year and even mo.-mo, performance swings of highly regarded prospects. I do feel as though Moncada had a higher bar than most due to his multi-year hype as the games top prospect. That said, his performance on the field (especially at the plate) has not lived up to the hype, let alone the play of other lesser touted young players (Albies, Soto, Bellinger, Torres, Robles (when healthy), Hoskins, etc.). Thats not to say he won't exceed their contributions eventually but for now, I don't think anyone can say he is the player we expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Butter Parque said: Going into last night he had a FIP of 3.60. He wasn’t bad. Actually, after last night his FIP is still under 4. Disappointing yes. Reason to really panic? Nah. He has things to work on. Oh I absolutely agree about "panic" but fans have a right to be concerned about his season, and to be honest, I'm not concerned about Moncada quite yet but I had higher expectations this year than a 715 OPS. Edited June 15, 2018 by soxfan49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Parque Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 27 minutes ago, Flash said: Plenty of examples of year-year and even mo.-mo, performance swings of highly regarded prospects. I do feel as though Moncada had a higher bar than most due to his multi-year hype as the games top prospect. That said, his performance on the field (especially at the plate) has not lived up to the hype, let alone the play of other lesser touted young players (Albies, Soto, Bellinger, Torres, Robles (when healthy), Hoskins, etc.). Thats not to say he won't exceed their contributions eventually but for now, I don't think anyone can say he is the player we expected. I’m not sure what you expected, but I don’t expect rookies to come in and light the world on fire all the time. Some do, and that’s great, but most don’t. If a year from now Moncada has a 95 WRC+, then I’ll be concerned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Parque Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, soxfan49 said: Oh I absolutely agree about "panic" but fans have a right to be concerned about his season, and to be honest, I'm not concerned about Moncada quite yet but I had higher expectations this year than a 715 OPS. I think we all have hoped for better from the both of them, but a baseball season is LOOOONNNGGGG. Just as it was foolish for fans to get too excited last year about Kopech in AA or this year when Moncada was red hot in April, it’s equally foolish to give much weight to the times when their performances are hitting their valleys. Both of these players are talented. They’re both going to get hot again. They might even go ice cold again. All of that will probably happen this season! The end end of a season (or two seasons) has a value in providing a perspective. Wait for that. Edited June 15, 2018 by Butter Parque 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 He's produced about 2 fWAR in 3/4 of a season at the MLB level, most of that before he turned 23. Yea I'd prefer he had a better last month but this is far from a situation like Viciedo or even Avi, where a guy is entering his third or fourth pro season and is still hovering around replacement level. It's stupid but we really just need to be patient and stop trying to evaluate on a night by night basis. I am guilty of this myself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) Well, thank God both Albies and Moncada can be good players at the same time. Strange, strange logic. Edited June 15, 2018 by TaylorStSox 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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