Moncada

[Panerista]

9 hours ago, Flash said:

Whether it is or not, its not cause for the irrational exuberance that has people making assinine claims about his trade value. 

What is it you guys say?  Go Cubs Go, right?  You and your little Cubbie crew aught to leave the White Sox discussion to people with real thought.

[Panerista]

8 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Doesn't matter. There is at least two years to worry about that.

He doesn't understand the aims of talent acquisition.  He thinks every player we acquire must become a big leaguer next year.

[T R U]

9 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

Yeah, it's not what I really expect out of this site. I can't think of anyone else who's just looking to troll all the time. 

Tim and Jose

[SCCWS]

8 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Doesn't matter. There is at least two years to worry about that.

Agree, and if he is ready next year, that is a good problem to have.  

[Panerista]

3 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Agree, and if he is ready next year, that is a good problem to have.  

Yup.  You really can't have too many middle infielders.  They can play almost any position.  They're the positional currency of baseball.

[flippedoutpunk]

6 minutes ago, T R U said:

Tim and Jose

Wow I am shocked and frankly appalled at these accusations. 

[Goober]

Oookay, why Trudy say this

[Goober]

9 hours ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Welcome to the golden age of analytics in baseball where you can pretty much just cherry pick stats to make your case. 

Moncada's wRC+ is currently below 100. Heavy hitters like Alen Hansen are outperforming him in that metric. 

His advanced fielding stats like DRS and UZR are also terrible.

Pick and choose... 

QFT

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Balta, what in the world are you trying to say here?

If Moncada breaks out and is leading us into contention, and Madrigal breaks out as a great looking prospect, then Madrigal is trade bait, and he will bring back a heckuva haul. It'd be very much like what the Red Sox did in getting Sale - they had a strong, young roster, with a lot of talent remaining in the minors. Rather than waiting on the talent in the minors to arrive, they went out and traded it for one of the best pitchers in baseball, and now they have the best record in baseball.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

If Moncada breaks out and is leading us into contention, and Madrigal breaks out as a great looking prospect, then Madrigal is trade bait, and he will bring back a heckuva haul. It'd be very much like what the Red Sox did in getting Sale - they had a strong, young roster, with a lot of talent remaining in the minors. Rather than waiting on the talent in the minors to arrive, they went out and traded it for one of the best pitchers in baseball, and now they have the best record in baseball.

Gotcha, makes perfect sense.  That’s exactly why I think people worry too much about where Madrigal will fit.  When the times comes, either they’ll make room for him or use him as a trade chip to fill a major hole.

[Panerista]

46 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Gotcha, makes perfect sense.  That’s exactly why I think people worry too much about where Madrigal will fit.  When the times comes, either they’ll make room for him or use him as a trade chip to fill a major hole.

Exactly.  This is exactly why you don't start drafting for Major League need.  You amass the most talent.

[flavum]

49 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Gotcha, makes perfect sense.  That’s exactly why I think people worry too much about where Madrigal will fit.  When the times comes, either they’ll make room for him or use him as a trade chip to fill a major hole.

While this is true, I’ll make a prediction that a year from now, it’ll be clear Madrigal is going to be the Sox 2B and Moncada will have to switch positions. My opinion is that Moncada should be in 3B boot camp all winter.

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

Exactly.  This is exactly why you don't start drafting for Major League need.  You amass the most talent.

+infinity

Thank you. 

[Timmy U]

54 minutes ago, flavum said:

While this is true, I’ll make a prediction that a year from now, it’ll be clear Madrigal is going to be the Sox 2B and Moncada will have to switch positions. My opinion is that Moncada should be in 3B boot camp all winter.

I hope you're right.  I have never shared the Madrigal optimism.  Would be happy to be wrong, but, generally, I don't like players who don't walk and don't have any power.  His value seems to be entirely wrapped up in 2b defense and batting average.  And remember, the further up you go, the more infield hits turn into outs. 

[Flash]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol...do you seriously think Vlad Guerrero Jr is a FV 55 prospect?  He’s arguably the best prospect in baseball right now and his prospect grade is probably around a 70 FV (the same as Moncada).  So no, the Jays wouldn’t trade him for Moncada because he’s a similar caliber of prospect who’s also younger, controllable longer, & hasn’t hit any roadblocks yet.  But to answer your question, would the Padres trade a 55 FV infielder like Urias for Moncada?  The answer is most certainly yes.  GMs aren’t nearly as inpatient as you Flash and don’t drop a prospect multiple grades after posting 2.5 WAR in their first 162 games. 

Lol...Moncada, even when he was #1 on MilB prospect lists was a 65 FV...same as Giolito (who was ranked 3rd). It is unlikely either would still be rated as high based on their MLB performances. Your example of Urias for Moncada is not as obvious as you portray. Swap Tatis for Urias and SD would definitely decline, as would Toronto if you swapped Bichette for Vlad Jr. You, along with many others on this board have bought in on the hype which was largely based upon his tools as he progressed through the minor leagues. He has never been more than a tooled up prospect. If you want to see what its supposed to look like, check out Acuna, Soto and Torres to name a few 65-70 FV prospects whose performances befit their tools.

[Jake]

I find the pairing of excessive pessimism about Moncada on the basis of just okay MLB performance and excessive optimism about Madrigal based on great college performance to be very odd.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Jake said:

I find the pairing of excessive pessimism about Moncada on the basis of just okay MLB performance and excessive optimism about Madrigal based on great college performance to be very odd.

Back up QB syndrome meets MLB.

[flavum]

1 minute ago, Jake said:

I find the pairing of excessive pessimism about Moncada on the basis of just okay MLB performance and excessive optimism about Madrigal based on great college performance to be very odd.

Madrigal was the 4th pick in the draft...there should be optimism. He also has an elite eye- the dude doesn’t strike out. And he has plus/plus makeup. 

Moncada is just tools right now, which are great and could make him a superstar someday, but he has to cut back on the Ks and show more focus day-to-day.

[Jake]

1 minute ago, flavum said:

Madrigal was the 4th pick in the draft...there should be optimism. He also has an elite eye- the dude doesn’t strike out. And he has plus/plus makeup. 

Moncada is just tools right now, which are great and could make him a superstar someday, but he has to cut back on the Ks and show more focus day-to-day.

Sure — and Moncada would have been the #1 if he were in the draft at Madrigal's age. He then went on to hit minor league pitching than I expect Madrigal to ever do with a bunch more upside than Madrigal has. The idea that we should imminently start prepping Moncada so that he's ready to move to a new position to make way for Madrigal is crazy to me. The burden of proof is on Madrigal and it'll take him a while to satisfy that standard even if things go as well for him as they possibly could.

I don't mean to say that a person shouldn't have optimism for Madrigal at all. But the same approach to young players that would make someone envision Madrigal on the 2019/early 2020 White Sox should also be able to envision an All-Star version of Moncada. It's like people can't bear to see a guy play just adequately with their own eyes, it ruins their ability to project anything better.

[Leonard Zelig]

5 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

What good is not striking out if you can't get the ball out of the infield? 

What are you referring to here?

[flavum]

4 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said:

What are you referring to here?

I would assume he’s saying Madrigal can’t hit the ball out of the infield. Yes, he grounds out a lot, but he’s also coming off a wrist injury and is only 21. He’ll show up to spring training with more strength, I’m sure. Physically, he has a way to go.

[iamshack]

37 minutes ago, flavum said:

Madrigal was the 4th pick in the draft...there should be optimism. He also has an elite eye- the dude doesn’t strike out. And he has plus/plus makeup. 

Moncada is just tools right now, which are great and could make him a superstar someday, but he has to cut back on the Ks and show more focus day-to-day.

Not sure Madrigal has an elite eye...perhaps elite hand-eye coordination, but from what he has said in interviews, he prefers to swing at anything close rather than leave the decision up to the umpires. 

Is there a way to combine Moncada and Madrigal into the ultimate player?

I enjoy the optimism around Madrigal, but the more I think about his profile, and see his early returns, the more “blah” I feel about him. 

Not that we don’t need that type of player in our org - we do - but I just don’t know if he will be the type of high level producer that some might expect. 

[TaylorStSox]

23 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said:

What are you referring to here?

I deleted it so we don't have a pissing match about drafting a 5'6 IF. 

[SoxBlanco]

37 minutes ago, Jake said:

Sure — and Moncada would have been the #1 if he were in the draft at Madrigal's age. He then went on to hit minor league pitching than I expect Madrigal to ever do with a bunch more upside than Madrigal has. The idea that we should imminently start prepping Moncada so that he's ready to move to a new position to make way for Madrigal is crazy to me. The burden of proof is on Madrigal and it'll take him a while to satisfy that standard even if things go as well for him as they possibly could.

I don't mean to say that a person shouldn't have optimism for Madrigal at all. But the same approach to young players that would make someone envision Madrigal on the 2019/early 2020 White Sox should also be able to envision an All-Star version of Moncada. It's like people can't bear to see a guy play just adequately with their own eyes, it ruins their ability to project anything better.

One of the best posts in this entire thread. 

[southsider2k5]

38 minutes ago, Jake said:

Sure — and Moncada would have been the #1 if he were in the draft at Madrigal's age. He then went on to hit minor league pitching than I expect Madrigal to ever do with a bunch more upside than Madrigal has. The idea that we should imminently start prepping Moncada so that he's ready to move to a new position to make way for Madrigal is crazy to me. The burden of proof is on Madrigal and it'll take him a while to satisfy that standard even if things go as well for him as they possibly could.

I don't mean to say that a person shouldn't have optimism for Madrigal at all. But the same approach to young players that would make someone envision Madrigal on the 2019/early 2020 White Sox should also be able to envision an All-Star version of Moncada. It's like people can't bear to see a guy play just adequately with their own eyes, it ruins their ability to project anything better.

[slow clap]