Lucas Giolito vs. Gavin Floyd

[The Sir]

I'm not sure about that. He's been on fewer all-star teams than Mark Buehrle and is showing signs of breaking down. He excelled in the post-season but he only finished as high as fourth in Cy Young voting. Buehrle finished fifth. He is not much more of a star than Mark Buehrle.

 

Disagree. He’s 28. He’s passed 200 IP while keeping his ERA under 3.00 four times, which Buehrle never did. He’s struck out 200 batters three times. He’s been a key player on three WS winning teams, and his performance in the 2014 Series was legendary. He might be breaking down, and if that happens, or he turns into Tim Lincecum, he won’t make it, but if he even comes close to his historic output, he’ll get in. He’s a far greater pitcher than Mark Buehrle.

[southsider2k5]

Utley is going to be an interesting case.

 

He's our generations Lou Whitaker. Close, but no.

[bmags]

I don't know that we'll know what qualifies a modern pitcher for the HOF anymore aside from probably Kershaw.

[Dam8610]

I'd amend this to saying if Giolito is Floyd, and that's the best turnout of all of our pitchign prospects, that's really bad.

 

But context is everything. If Giolito is Floyd and Kopech is an Ace and someone becomes a really good #2, then it's fine. If we needed giolito to be the ace and he failed, no good.

 

I want 4 aces. Best chance of that (pre 2018 draft where they might pick up McClanahan) is Rodon, Kopech, Giolito, Hansen, with Lopez having a decent shot as well. Maybe that's being greedy, but the Sox had to sell off three in their prime stars for this, I want the best payoff possible.

[Dam8610]

Seeing as he is here now, and seemingly mechanically fixed, I would hope for that as a floor versus a mid level.

 

This. We should be looking at a solid 3 as a floor for Giolito, with ace still on the ceiling board. This would make mid-level outcome a solid 2.

[Leonard Zelig]

Disagree. He’s 28. He’s passed 200 IP while keeping his ERA under 3.00 four times, which Buehrle never did. He’s struck out 200 batters three times. He’s been a key player on three WS winning teams, and his performance in the 2014 Series was legendary. He might be breaking down, and if that happens, or he turns into Tim Lincecum, he won’t make it, but if he even comes close to his historic output, he’ll get in. He’s a far greater pitcher than Mark Buehrle.

I think its fairly safe to say that if Buehrle pitched in the NL, he would have had several seasons with an ERA under 3.

[bmags]

I want 4 aces. Best chance of that (pre 2018 draft where they might pick up McClanahan) is Rodon, Kopech, Giolito, Hansen, with Lopez having a decent shot as well. Maybe that's being greedy, but the Sox had to sell off three in their prime stars for this, I want the best payoff possible.

 

Yes it would be nice, but I'll take a well rounded club with a nice bullpen. The recent teams with "4 aces" had meh results in playoffs, and even when it works a la mets, pitching can fall apart quickly.

[Dam8610]

Yes it would be nice, but I'll take a well rounded club with a nice bullpen. The recent teams with "4 aces" had meh results in playoffs, and even when it works a la mets, pitching can fall apart quickly.

 

Anything can fall apart, you have to hope it doesn't. At least for now, we need Moncada and Eloy to be star hitters, a few more develop into above average regulars around them, and a few of the pitchers to hit and become top of rotation guys. Otherwise, it's not going to work.

[southsider2k5]

Yes it would be nice, but I'll take a well rounded club with a nice bullpen. The recent teams with "4 aces" had meh results in playoffs, and even when it works a la mets, pitching can fall apart quickly.

 

Looking at the rebuild as of noon April 10, 2018, I will go on record as saying the thing I am least scared of in the future is the White Sox bullpen.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Looking at the rebuild as of noon April 10, 2018, I will go on record as saying the thing I am least scared of in the future is the White Sox bullpen.

I never understood this stance by you. Maybe it's because you think because the Sox have had good fortune picking up guys like Thornton, Addison Reed, Swarzak Kahnle Jenks etc plus the plethora of solid young arms in the system and the Sox success at developing arms but it takes some really elite bullpen arms to win a WS these days.

 

While I have generally positive attitudes regarding individual players I have my worries that the whole rebuild just won't come to the outcome it is supposed to.

 

I don't really care too much about long term success as stated by Hahn but another WS win is all I can realistically hope for. Just that one year where injuries are scarce . some peak performances and some luck thrown in for good measure. Just knowing the Sox miserable history makes me generally pessimistic that it's all going to come together like its meant to.

[southsider2k5]

I never understood this stance by you. Maybe it's because you think because the Sox have had good fortune picking up guys like Thornton, Addison Reed, Swarzak Kahnle Jenks etc plus the plethora of solid young arms in the system and the Sox success at developing arms but it takes some really elite bullpen arms to win a WS these days.

 

While I have generally positive attitudes regarding individual players I have my worries that the whole rebuild just won't come to the outcome it is supposed to.

 

I don't really care too much about long term success as stated by Hahn but another WS win is all I can realistically hope for. Just that one year where injuries are scarce . some peak performances and some luck thrown in for good measure. Just knowing the Sox miserable history makes me generally pessimistic that it's all going to come together like its meant to.

 

This is exactly it. And we have elite arms in the system right now, more than anyone else in all of baseball. There are also still only 5 starters in a major league rotation.

[bmags]

Looking at the rebuild as of noon April 10, 2018, I will go on record as saying the thing I am least scared of in the future is the White Sox bullpen.

 

That's safe to say.

[Dick Allen]

This is exactly it. And we have elite arms in the system right now, more than anyone else in all of baseball. There are also still only 5 starters in a major league rotation.

Exactly. Chances are a couple of these guys will probably be relievers.

 

A guy like Lopez, to me, obviously, see what he is as a starter, but if he can't harness his control well enough, at the very least, if he stays healthy, he looks like he would be a stud in the bullpen. Hansen may be the same way. Fulmer. That's 3 right there. Kind of old school, failed starters become relievers. Burdi is also there. So, tons of options, and they seem to be pretty good at choosing them cheaply off the dumpster.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

To go along with this point, look no further than the move the Sox made at the last deadline.

 

The Yankees got two solid bullpen arms in Kanhle and Robertson for a borderline Top 100 prospect in Rutherford.

 

Who's to say the Sox couldn't do that in 2019-2020 with a guy like Micker? Rutherford again? Anyone for that matter?

 

At some point, the farm will also be used for ML talent acquisition.

 

-We have a farm system that is loaded with highly projectionalble starting pitchers. An amount of those pitchers will fail. They are future bullpen options.

 

-We have a farm system that is loaded with some incredibly hard throwing relievers. BA noted that 6 Sox minor leaguers have hit 100 mph already. A few have hit speeds of 102 mph or more. Then you still drop down to the tier of guy who are peppering the zone in the upper 90's. It would be my guess that the Sox have somewhere around a dozen guys who have clocked in at 98mph or greater at this point in time, without even looking at the guys who are already on the major league roster.

 

-The Sox have seemed to be targeting relievers, both in the middle draft rounds, and in trades for international cap space who have projectionable ceilings, and might be an undervalued commodity at the minor league level. We all know the value of relievers in the 21st century, but their value as minor leaguers still hasn't caught up to that. This could almost be a moneyball situation where the Sox know something that the rest of baseball hasn't caught up to. It is a theory of mine that I haven't seen talked about much, but it is something I am going to watch to see how develops.

 

-The Sox still have the chance to trade for relievers in situations where they are essentially buying prospects or players. They got a guy like Luis Avilan because they were willing to take on the Soria money. The Sox have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball, so there is no reason they couldn't do something similar again.

 

-The Sox are a wiz at spotting kids with flaws (mechanical or otherwise) and fixing them to turn them into big time relievers. The OP posted a nice list of guys that included MiLB free agents the Sox turned into big time assets. They basically turned an MiLB trade piece in Tommy Kahnle into a top 100 prospect. They do this on a regular basis, as that list of names would indicate.

 

-There is the more traditional trade route of things like normal prospect for RP trades or boring old free agency.

 

Again, when it comes to the White Sox I have my doubts about drafting, scouting, and development of position players, though it appears to be getting better. When it comes to pitching, I have a fair amount of blind faith because of their extensive history here.

[reiks12]

He needs to win a Cy Young or come relatively close. He hasn't come relatively close. He also can't have too many more 17 game seasons. He's also on the disabled list to start this season. Could be minor setbacks but guys like this do breakdown early.

 

I would consider his WS MVP a good substitute for a cy young. I agree on the health though but both have been flukey injuries.