Trust the process

[hi8is]

2 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Having “trust” and “complete confidence” in a management team with the horrible record this one has is foolish and unwarranted. What Sox fans can have is “hope” they finally get this thing right.  

This team wasn’t meant to have a winning record.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Having “trust” and “complete confidence” in a management team with the horrible record this one has is foolish and unwarranted. What Sox fans can have is “hope” they finally get this thing right.  

That's right. We also can thank them for 05, but that turned out to be fate or whatever you want to call it. It ended up being a one year wonder(ful) experience.

[Harry Chappas]

I don't trust this front office.  While the trade for Sale, Quintana and Eaton seems to have been benefical the fact that the organizational leaders are the same that invested high draft picks in Fulmer, Collins, Hawkins, etc.

They have not developed a hitter in years.  Look at the current outfield.  

Has the development staff from a hitting side been upgraded, potentially but the top of the organization has shown no ability to be able to build and organization.  They used to be good at cobbling teams together from time to time but whatever happened when Williams took over, way back when, all player development went down the drain.

 

 

[caulfield12]

15 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

I don't trust this front office.  While the trade for Sale, Quintana and Eaton seems to have been benefical the fact that the organizational leaders are the same that invested high draft picks in Fulmer, Collins, Hawkins, etc.

They have not developed a hitter in years.  Look at the current outfield.  

Has the development staff from a hitting side been upgraded, potentially but the top of the organization has shown no ability to be able to build and organization.  They used to be good at cobbling teams together from time to time but whatever happened when Williams took over, way back when, all player development went down the drain.

 

 

Position Players: C Alex Avila, C Tyler Flowers, 1B Jose Martinez, 2B Eduardo Escobar, SS Marcus Semien, 3B Todd Frazier, 1B/3B Gordon Beckham, 2B/SS Micah Johnson, OF Austin Jackson, OF Adam Eaton, OF Gorkys Hernandez, OF Alejandro De Aza

Pitchers: SP Chris Sale, SP Jeff Samardzija, SP Gio Gonzalez, SP Clayton Richard, SP Jose Quintana, RP Chris Devenski, RP David Robertson, RP Addison Reed, RP Matt Albers, RP Tommy Kahnle, RP Anthony Swarzak, RP Boone Logan, RP Javy Guerra

 

Semien and Escobar have been effective/valuable players.

Carlos Sanchez, this year and last.

Tyler Flowers counts for something.

Tim Anderson.

Jose Martinez has been a late bloomer bigtime, originally identified by the Sox.

Trayce Thompson has had some nice moments with the Sox and Dodgers.

Alexei Ramirez and Abreu, they have to get credit for identifying both guys.

Adam Eaton bloomed into a valuable trade chip here.  That AZ trade was a steal, in retrospect.

Davidson and Delmonico might contribute more than anyone thought a year ago.

Edited April 25, 2018 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I will start "trusting" the developmental team when Sox minor leaguers not counting the guys drafted and developed by other organiztations, can be considered at least middle of the pack .

[Chicago White Sox]

21 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I will start "trusting" the developmental team when Sox minor leaguers not counting the guys drafted and developed by other organiztations, can be considered at least middle of the pack .

The 2016, 2017, & 2018 draft classes should provide us with a better idea of our organization’s ability to identity & deveop talent.  These are Hostetler’s first full drafts and represent a shift in strategy from taking toolsy athletes to selecting true baseball players on the positional side.  Guys that fill that bill that were taken in the higher rounds are Collins, Call, Fisher, Burger, Sheets, & Gonzalez.  To me, if the majority of those guys fail it will reflect poorly on Getz’s team’s ability to develop talent.  

So far, the results haven’t been great, although it’s super early and the sample size is minuscule.  However, seeing a guy like Fisher whose one true above average tool was his hit tool struggle to make contact on a regular basis is a bit terrifying.  And while I’m not ready to write-off Collins by any means, if he fails to hit enough to not even sniff the major leagues as a 1B/DH type at the very least that raises a lot of questions as well.

[WBWSF]

I went to the game yesterday. The atmosphere was depressing. The upper deck was closed. Most of the food stands on the lower level were closed also. I don't think they had a 1,000 fans at the game. I was acquainted with former sports writer Bill Gleason. Some older fans will remember him as a lifelong White Sox fan. He told me once how lousy it was growing up a White Sox fan in the 1930s. On year they finished 56 games out of first place. He said it was hopeless year after year. Looking at the lineup in yesterdays game, the White Sox now have 4 players in there lineup hitting less than .200. If they start Navarez behind the plate today they will have 5 players hitting less than .200. I wonder if any MLB team has ever been as bad as the present White Sox lineup. Having 5 players in the lineup hitting less than .200 is pathetic. It seems like history is repeating itself. This appears to be a hopeless situation that will go on for years.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, WBWSF said:

I went to the game yesterday. The atmosphere was depressing. The upper deck was closed. Most of the food stands on the lower level were closed also. I don't think they had a 1,000 fans at the game. I was acquainted with former sports writer Bill Gleason. Some older fans will remember him as a lifelong White Sox fan. He told me once how lousy it was growing up a White Sox fan in the 1930s. On year they finished 56 games out of first place. He said it was hopeless year after year. Looking at the lineup in yesterdays game, the White Sox now have 4 players in there lineup hitting less than .200. If they start Navarez behind the plate today they will have 5 players hitting less than .200. I wonder if any MLB team has ever been as bad as the present White Sox lineup. Having 5 players in the lineup hitting less than .200 is pathetic. It seems like history is repeating itself. This appears to be a hopeless situation that will go on for years.

You really don’t seem to understand how a rebuild works.

[WBWSF]

I know what a nightmare is and this present White Sox team is a nightmare. And I see this nightmare going on for many years. If some people are happy with that, so be it. I'm not happy with a team  that is worse than a MLB expansion team.

[Kyyle23]

4 minutes ago, Tony said:

Yet you went to the game yesterday. Jokes on you. 

JR definitely counted his money while laughing on the way to the bank yesterday 

[caulfield12]

The problem is not the offense, by and large.

Davidson has a 799 ops.  That’s respectable.

Thompson has been with the team for just a handful of games.

If you want to rip Leury, Engel, go for it...if it makes you feel better.  Narvaez was a valuable backup last year.

 

The 2012/13 Cubs were similar.  Rizzo instead of Abreu.  Nobody as exciting as Moncada.  Castro and Soriano were both on the way out.  Tim Anderson is fun to watch develop, imo.  Avi was an All-Star last year, for example.

If they wanted offense, they should never have come up with the idiotic idea of a 410 start time.

Edited April 25, 2018 by caulfield12

[fathom]

19 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I went to the game yesterday. The atmosphere was depressing. The upper deck was closed. Most of the food stands on the lower level were closed also. I don't think they had a 1,000 fans at the game. I was acquainted with former sports writer Bill Gleason. Some older fans will remember him as a lifelong White Sox fan. He told me once how lousy it was growing up a White Sox fan in the 1930s. On year they finished 56 games out of first place. He said it was hopeless year after year. Looking at the lineup in yesterdays game, the White Sox now have 4 players in there lineup hitting less than .200. If they start Navarez behind the plate today they will have 5 players hitting less than .200. I wonder if any MLB team has ever been as bad as the present White Sox lineup. Having 5 players in the lineup hitting less than .200 is pathetic. It seems like history is repeating itself. This appears to be a hopeless situation that will go on for years.

The superstar Indians team has a way worse lineup right now in terms of stats 

[Dick Allen]

And so far, not overly impressed. The White Sox were lucky they had Sale, Q, and Eaton with their contracts or this really would be a never ending nightmare. 

Cubs, Astros. Those are best cast scenerios. So many teams are doing this in several sports. There aren't enough good players for all of them to be successful. There are going to be more than a couple of failures. Hopefully, the White Sox advantage of having the assets they had keep them from becoming one of them, or they could have been in an abyss that might take multiple decades to get out of. 

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I will start "trusting" the developmental team when Sox minor leaguers not counting the guys drafted and developed by other organiztations, can be considered at least middle of the pack .

There are positive signs on the horizon.  Tim Anderson and Yolmer Sanchez are White Sox from beginning to end.  A guy like Nicky we took from out of baseball as a minor league free agent after forcing a release and moved all of the way up to the majors.  While he has taken a crazy route, it was the White Sox that got Trayce Thompson from draft day to the majors.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The 2016, 2017, & 2018 draft classes should provide us with a better idea of our organization’s ability to identity & deveop talent.  These are Hostetler’s first full drafts and represent a shift in strategy from taking toolsy athletes to selecting true baseball players on the positional side.  Guys that fill that bill that were taken in the higher rounds are Collins, Call, Fisher, Burger, Sheets, & Gonzalez.  To me, if the majority of those guys fail it will reflect poorly on Getz’s team’s ability to develop talent.  

So far, the results haven’t been great, although it’s super early and the sample size is minuscule.  However, seeing a guy like Fisher whose one true above average tool was his hit tool struggle to make contact on a regular basis is a bit terrifying.  And while I’m not ready to write-off Collins by any means, if he fails to hit enough to not even sniff the major leagues as a 1B/DH type at the very least that raises a lot of questions as well.

The Sox have pretty quietly redone their player development group in a pretty short period of time.  They have a new person running the draft and scouting, along with a new development person while slowly pushing Buddy Bell out.  The results early seem positive, but we will see five years down the road.

[southsider2k5]

24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

And so far, not overly impressed. The White Sox were lucky they had Sale, Q, and Eaton with their contracts or this really would be a never ending nightmare. 

Cubs, Astros. Those are best cast scenerios. So many teams are doing this in several sports. There aren't enough good players for all of them to be successful. There are going to be more than a couple of failures. Hopefully, the White Sox advantage of having the assets they had keep them from becoming one of them, or they could have been in an abyss that might take multiple decades to get out of. 

But even having Sale/Quintana/Eaton wasn't luck.  The drafted and developed Sale.  They targeted Quintana as a minor league free agent who hadn't pitched above A ball, and managed to turn him into a front line pitcher.  Eaton the Sox scouted and identified to bring into the organization.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

There are positive signs on the horizon.  Tim Anderson and Yolmer Sanchez are White Sox from beginning to end.  A guy like Nicky we took from out of baseball as a minor league free agent after forcing a release and moved all of the way up to the majors.  While he has taken a crazy route, it was the White Sox that got Trayce Thompson from draft day to the majors.

Whille true, these aren't guys right now you can say are anchors for a championship contending team. Still a lot of question marks with all of them. But it is better than what they were producing. I will admit that. 

[Dam8610]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The 2016, 2017, & 2018 draft classes should provide us with a better idea of our organization’s ability to identity & deveop talent.  These are Hostetler’s first full drafts and represent a shift in strategy from taking toolsy athletes to selecting true baseball players on the positional side.  Guys that fill that bill that were taken in the higher rounds are Collins, Call, Fisher, Burger, Sheets, & Gonzalez.  To me, if the majority of those guys fail it will reflect poorly on Getz’s team’s ability to develop talent.  

So far, the results haven’t been great, although it’s super early and the sample size is minuscule.  However, seeing a guy like Fisher whose one true above average tool was his hit tool struggle to make contact on a regular basis is a bit terrifying.  And while I’m not ready to write-off Collins by any means, if he fails to hit enough to not even sniff the major leagues as a 1B/DH type at the very least that raises a lot of questions as well.

I think this fails to take into account that you're lucky you get 2-3 quality players out of a draft class, so the majority of the guys you listed will fail. That said, the White Sox need to start having classes where they get 2-3 good players instead of 0-1. 2016 seems to be fairly promising on that front (Collins, Hansen, Burdi). Too early to judge 2017, but it's not looking great at the moment (of course a hot streak from Gonzalez,  Sheets, and Yurchak could turn that around very quickly, plus Henzman and McClure are getting good results). Just be patient, it's not going to happen overnight. It's going to take time and there will be bumps.

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

But even having Sale/Quintana/Eaton wasn't luck.  The drafted and developed Sale.  They targeted Quintana as a minor league free agent who hadn't pitched above A ball, and managed to turn him into a front line pitcher.  Eaton the Sox scouted and identified to bring into the organization.

I think they were lucky all those teams passed on Sale. I also think they were lucky Q was  basically released as a minor league free agent. I give them credit for signing him, but if they were so sure what he was, they probably would have traded for him before that. So there was luck there. The Eaton trade was genius. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I think they were lucky all those teams passed on Sale. I also think they were lucky Q was released. I give them credit for signing him, but if they were so sure what he was, they probably would have traded for him before he was released. So there was luck there. The Eaton trade was genius. 

Its luck if its good, and stupidity if its bad...

[Dick Allen]

I do think one reason they have been more successful with pitchers is volume. In drafts, they seemed to concentrate on pitching for years, thinking if you can develop that, you can trade for bats. 

[Dick Allen]

I give credit to the White Sox for drafting Sale, but the fact that he was available was luck. And the guy who drafted him, has been sort of pushed aside, and no one here seems to mind. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Dam8610]

Just now, Tony said:

They have established a track record with developing and getting the most out of hitters. 

I believe the last hitter the Sox drafted that made an All-Star game was Joe Crede. 

That's....not good. 

The last 4 hitters they've drafted in the Top 10 were Zack Collins, Gordon Beckham, Frank Thomas, and Robin Ventura. That list will likely expand this year, but again, we have to be patient. Players can and will have struggles before the light comes on, so if Collins and the #4 overall pick this year bust out, absolutely be critical of the player development team, but we won't know that for at least another 2-3 years, probably longer.

Also, Aaron Rowand made an all-star game (first rounder in 1998, Crede was a 5th rounder in 1996). Give it a few years, and Tim Anderson likely will as well.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

The last 4 hitters they've drafted in the Top 10 were Zack Collins, Gordon Beckham, Frank Thomas, and Robin Ventura. That list will likely expand this year, but again, we have to be patient. Players can and will have struggles before the light comes on, so if Collins and the #4 overall pick this year bust out, absolutely be critical of the player development team, but we won't know that for at least another 2-3 years, probably longer.

Also, Aaron Rowand made an all-star game (first rounder in 1998, Crede was a 5th rounder in 1996). Give it a few years, and Tim Anderson likely will as well.

One Hall of Famer, one Hall of Very Good-er, and another with essentially 8 years of service at the major league level.  That is actually pretty crazy.

[Chicago White Sox]

28 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

I think this fails to take into account that you're lucky you get 2-3 quality players out of a draft class, so the majority of the guys you listed will fail. That said, the White Sox need to start having classes where they get 2-3 good players instead of 0-1. 2016 seems to be fairly promising on that front (Collins, Hansen, Burdi). Too early to judge 2017, but it's not looking great at the moment (of course a hot streak from Gonzalez,  Sheets, and Yurchak could turn that around very quickly, plus Henzman and McClure are getting good results). Just be patient, it's not going to happen overnight. It's going to take time and there will be bumps.

When I say if we fail with a draft pick. I don’t mean not developing them into quality major leaguers.  You’re spot on with how many quality major leaguers we should be getting out of a draft.  I’m speaking more in the sense of seeing general improvements with their flaws and remaining productive as they move up to more advanced levels.  

Again with Fisher, the odds were always against him becoming a quality major leaguer, but a guy with his hit tool shouldn’t flame out in high A.  Now, if he could make it to AAA but a lack of power or defensive ability ultimately prevented him from getting to the pros then that’s still a win in my book.  

All I’m saying is if we are drafting guys more on baseball ability than pure tools, we should be able see more of them make their way up the system without significant holes in their games if we have a competent development staff in place.