Trust the process

[soxfan49]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

BUT THE PRICES!!!!!!11111

Hell, even to sit in the gold box (IIRC the sections that go from dugout to dugout) it's only $129 for that same package. Not bad at all, but Greg is always right so

[greg775]

4 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Blowing $30-50mm on multi-year deals for Jake Arrieta and Mike Moustakas, just to win 71 games instead of 64, earning us a worse draft pick in the short term and tying up resources and roster spots on declining veterans during our competitive window instead of using those resources to get better players that fills important voids on the roster.

The Indians are .500 for gawd sakes. This rebuild is insane. You get in the playoffs and the Sox may pull an Ozzie and WIN IT ALL.  You'll never find out. We won one WS by catching lighting in a bottle. How many are we going to win this way? The division reeks. .500 to get in playoffs? Geez. We couda been contenders w/a few moves for a few dollars.

Edited May 8, 2018 by greg775

[Jose Abreu]

From my experience, I have been asked if I want onions on the $1 hot dogs every time. Maybe it's just because I go to the one by section 130something (138 or so?) every time

[BFirebird]

2 minutes ago, greg775 said:

The Indians are .500 for gawd sakes. This rebuild is insane. You get in the playoffs and the Sox may pull an Ozzie and WIN IT ALL.  You'll never find out.

The rebuild is insane?  Have you seen the talent in A & AA?  Obviously they won't all work, but wouldn't you rather try to have sustained 5-8 year window to win than pay FAs and try to win now?  The Sox have tried the latter....for years.  It worked once.

[greg775]

2 minutes ago, BFirebird said:

The rebuild is insane?  Have you seen the talent in A & AA?  Obviously they won't all work, but wouldn't you rather try to have sustained 5-8 year window to win than pay FAs and try to win now?  The Sox have tried the latter....for years.  It worked once.

But who's fauilt is it we won it once?

[BFirebird]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

But who's fauilt is it we won it once?

Not sure it is anyone's fault.  2006 team was arguably better but just barely missed the playoffs while winning 90+ games.  But the reason it was unsustainable is everyone that was good was 30 or older.  You can't continually win if your core is 28-32.  This is why the Cubs, Astros, Yankees, Red Sox will be good for years.  Their core is mid-lower twenties.  That is how you build your team to succeed.  This allows you to get mid-priced FAs and trade for players like Sale.  If your mid-priced FA fails it is your 4th or 5th SP that fails or if it is a position player, they become a platoon OFer.  This is much preferred instead of relying on LaRoche to be a starter or trading for Shields.  Cubs have made their fair share of mistakes in FA (Heyward comes to mind), but their talent pool covers up the wart.

[Eminor3rd]

31 minutes ago, greg775 said:

The Indians are .500 for gawd sakes. This rebuild is insane. You get in the playoffs and the Sox may pull an Ozzie and WIN IT ALL.  You'll never find out. We won one WS by catching lighting in a bottle. How many are we going to win this way? The division reeks. .500 to get in playoffs? Geez. We couda been contenders w/a few moves for a few dollars.

Greg, the White Sox have been doing exactly what you're asking every year since 2005, it's failed 100% of the time, and you are constantly calling for everyone to be fired.

[BFirebird]

4 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Greg, the White Sox have been doing exactly what you're asking every year since 2005, it's failed 100% of the time, and you are constantly calling for everyone to be fired.

This.  Time to try a new approach.  No guarantees of WS...nothing is.  But you give yourself more bites at the apple.

[greg775]

3 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Greg, the White Sox have been doing exactly what you're asking every year since 2005, it's failed 100% of the time, and you are constantly calling for everyone to be fired.

It seems to me the managers have sucked, the GM's moves have sucked and the acquisitions have sucked prior to the rebuild acquisitions. I think we should be able to rule the division withot the tank/rebuild. You folks should be upset if Kopech is called up now. What good will it be to have a Sale-like star on a 100-loss team? Unless we're prepping him for a sped up contender next season? 

[BFirebird]

9 minutes ago, greg775 said:

It seems to me the managers have sucked, the GM's moves have sucked and the acquisitions have sucked prior to the rebuild acquisitions. I think we should be able to rule the division withot the tank/rebuild. You folks should be upset if Kopech is called up now. What good will it be to have a Sale-like star on a 100-loss team? Unless we're prepping him for a sped up contender next season? 

I believe it was more of a philosophy issue.  "Going for it" every year at whatever cost, (ie trading Tatis, Jr for Shields) is a bad approach.  Hahn should/will be judged based on draft 2016 - on, FAs from here on out, and the trades he made to get the young talent we have now.  If multiple postseasons don't come out of this...he should be let go.  No doubt in my mind.

As far as Kopech goes, getting him big league time this year (July/August or September) is not a bad thing no matter how many games they lose.  Same thing with Eloy.  Players need to learn at Big League level just like every level of the minors.  It is very rare to just plug your young stars in and start winning.  Look at the Astros, it took them 2+ years to get everyone up and winning.  Cubs are the anomaly.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, BFirebird said:

I believe it was more of a philosophy issue.  "Going for it" every year at whatever cost, (ie trading Tatis, Jr for Shields) is a bad approach.  Hahn should/will be judged based on draft 2016 - on, FAs from here on out, and the trades he made to get the young talent we have now.  If multiple postseasons don't come out of this...he should be let go.  No doubt in my mind.

As far as Kopech goes, getting him big league time this year (July/August or September) is not a bad thing no matter how many games they lose.  Same thing with Eloy.  Players need to learn at Big League level just like every level of the minors.  It is very rare to just plug your young stars in and start winning.  Look at the Astros, it took them 2+ years to get everyone up and winning.  Cubs are the anomaly.

Have you looked at the Braves lately ?

[BFirebird]

17 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Have you looked at the Braves lately ?

Yes, both of them are playing well and will probably be passed by the Nats when they are healthy.  Both are doing a rebuild as well, but they are ahead of the White Sox timeline.  The Phillies are at least a year ahead of them (Hoskins, Herrera, Altherr, Franco, Kingery, Nola, Alfaro - all young talent in MLB).  The Phillies are actually a perfect example of what the White Sox could do to supplement their talent with some veterans when they are ready.  Phillies signed Santana and Arrieta to supplement their young talent.  At this point the Sox don't know what their holes will be....Phillies did.

Braves had some of their vets on their team already (Markakis, Freeman - he is still pretty young, Teheran, Inciarte) and are starting to add their young players in Acuna, Albies, Swanson (when healthy).  Braves are probably half/full season ahead of the Sox in terms of their rebuild.

Once the Sox add Eloy, Rodon, and Kopech the Sox are not a 100 loss team anymore.  Patience is needed with this.....Phillies and Braves are actually great examples that this CAN work.  FA's will be added once holes are shown (3B will be one) or if one of the top FAs this year is willing to sign (not holding my breath on that one).

Edited May 8, 2018 by BFirebird

[Thad Bosley]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

No "35  years"?  You are slipping.

We're actually up to 38 now, with Year 38 all set to look like 32 of it's 37 predecessors, meaning NO PLAYOFF APPEARANCE FOR THE WHITE SOX.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, BFirebird said:

Yes, both of them are playing well and will probably be passed by the Nats when they are healthy.  Both are doing a rebuild as well, but they are ahead of the White Sox timeline.  The Phillies are at least a year ahead of them (Hoskins, Herrera, Altherr, Franco, Kingery, Nola, Alfaro - all young talent in MLB).  The Phillies are actually a perfect example of what the White Sox could do to supplement their talent with some veterans when they are ready.  Phillies signed Santana and Arrieta to supplement their young talent.  At this point the Sox don't know what their holes will be....Phillies did.

Braves had some of their vets on their team already (Markakis, Freeman - he is still pretty young, Teheran, Inciarte) and are starting to add their young players in Acuna, Albies, Swanson (when healthy).  Braves are probably half/full season ahead of the Sox in terms of their rebuild.

Once the Sox add Eloy, Rodon, and Kopech the Sox are not a 100 loss team anymore.  Patience is needed with this.....Phillies and Braves are actually great examples that this CAN work.  FA's will be added once holes are shown (3B will be one) or if one of the top FAs this year is willing to sign (not holding my breath on that one).

I think you just argued against yourself in the Phillies part.  They just now added major league talent, and are probably a year or two ahead of the White Sox in terms of timeline.

[BFirebird]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think you just argued against yourself in the Phillies part.  They just now added major league talent, and are probably a year or two ahead of the White Sox in terms of timeline.

If I did...it wasn't intentional.  I just meant their young talent is IN the big leagues....the Sox is still coming up, no reason for the Sox to add a guy like Santana/Arrieta yet.  Phils are definitely 1-2 years ahead.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

The Indians are .500 for gawd sakes. This rebuild is insane. You get in the playoffs and the Sox may pull an Ozzie and WIN IT ALL.  You'll never find out. We won one WS by catching lighting in a bottle. How many are we going to win this way? The division reeks. .500 to get in playoffs? Geez. We couda been contenders w/a few moves for a few dollars.

Last year on June 14 Cleveland was 31-31. They won 102 games.

[GreenSox]

1 hour ago, BFirebird said:

I believe it was more of a philosophy issue.  "Going for it" every year at whatever cost, (ie trading Tatis, Jr for Shields) is a bad approach.  Hahn should/will be judged based on draft 2016 - on, FAs from here on out, and the trades he made to get the young talent we have now.  If multiple postseasons don't come out of this...he should be let go.  No doubt in my mind.

Acquiring Shields was a bad move even if going for it - the Sox seemed oblivious to his  obvious decline.   And then giving something legitimate for him made it a ridiculous effort.

Nevertheless, the  Sox should be going for it every year.  The reason they had to tear down is because their drafting, international signing (of young FAs) and development was largely impotent.  It's also a big reason why the Phillies are so far ahead of them, despite far less to trade when they dispersed.

The Sox have got to get that figured out.

[BFirebird]

31 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Acquiring Shields was a bad move even if going for it - the Sox seemed oblivious to his  obvious decline.   And then giving something legitimate for him made it a ridiculous effort.

Nevertheless, the  Sox should be going for it every year.  The reason they had to tear down is because their drafting, international signing (of young FAs) and development was largely impotent.  It's also a big reason why the Phillies are so far ahead of them, despite far less to trade when they dispersed.

The Sox have got to get that figured out.

Ah yes...I see the hole in my argument.  Once they are on the right path, I totally agree that the Sox should be going for it all the time 100%, but they had to get the foundation right first.  You can still draft well, sign international players, scout well when you are good...it isn't like the NBA where the only good talent is top 3-5 players.  I definitely agree with you on this point.  I guess I left out that they should go for it once the foundation is set during the rebuild.  Great point.

Edited May 8, 2018 by BFirebird

[GreenSox]

On 5/7/2018 at 9:59 PM, caulfield12 said:

Moustakas is still going to be available next offseason (and I was one of those advocating the same thing, signing Moustakas and Dyson to man CF for two years while waiting for Luis Robert)...this year, he would have prevented Sanchez and Davidson from getting playing time, and then still would have left at the end of the year in all likelihood.

 

Yolmer is the least of the problems; Moustakas is a marginal upgrade, if that.  They need to stabilize the pitching.  They brought in a bunch of veteran pitchers to do that,  and they are, to a man, fine additions tot the gallery that features Latos, and Holland and about 10 other veteran stiffs they've brought in the last 5 years.
It's been firmly established that the problem can't be the GM; and it can't be the scouting because the GM it can't be brought in new scouts; it's can't be the iconic pitching coach.   

Edited May 9, 2018 by GreenSox

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Yolmer is the least of the problems; Moustakas is a marginal upgrade, if that.  They need to stabilize the pitching.  This offseason, they brought in 2 old friends, both of whom can't pitch; then they traded for 2 vets to stabilize the pen, and both Soria and Avilan  are getting creamed.  The GM  can't be the problem: - that's been firmly established; it can't be the scouting because the GM whom it can't be brought in new scouts; it certainly can't be the iconic pitching coach.
What can they do?

It's just really sad when moves are made just for the sake of making moves. No real intent to improve the team one iota. If and when they strike out on big name free agents it will be disgusting. I just hope the off season moves were intended to keep us bad and spend their revenue sharing provisions and not made because they thought anyone they signed besides Castillo was any good. All they basically did was sign a bunch of bodies hoping some float .

It just would be nice if  the Sox showed they could pick out veterans that can actually provide talent before they actually really need to. I think that was driving my requests for  Moustakas more than anything.Well that and the fact LH power. youngish .cheapish and filled a need.

Edited May 9, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

16 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Last year on June 14 Cleveland was 31-31. They won 102 games.

They also won 22 consecutive games in the second half. That won’t happen again.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

17 hours ago, BFirebird said:

Yes, both of them are playing well and will probably be passed by the Nats when they are healthy.  Both are doing a rebuild as well, but they are ahead of the White Sox timeline.  The Phillies are at least a year ahead of them (Hoskins, Herrera, Altherr, Franco, Kingery, Nola, Alfaro - all young talent in MLB).  The Phillies are actually a perfect example of what the White Sox could do to supplement their talent with some veterans when they are ready.  Phillies signed Santana and Arrieta to supplement their young talent.  At this point the Sox don't know what their holes will be....Phillies did.

Braves had some of their vets on their team already (Markakis, Freeman - he is still pretty young, Teheran, Inciarte) and are starting to add their young players in Acuna, Albies, Swanson (when healthy).  Braves are probably half/full season ahead of the Sox in terms of their rebuild.

Once the Sox add Eloy, Rodon, and Kopech the Sox are not a 100 loss team anymore.  Patience is needed with this.....Phillies and Braves are actually great examples that this CAN work.  FA's will be added once holes are shown (3B will be one) or if one of the top FAs this year is willing to sign (not holding my breath on that one).

Why do people continue saying this? Sanchez has been one of the few bright spots this year. To me, the pitching still needs plenty of reinforcements over the next two winters even after factoring in future contributions from prospects. That’s far and away the biggest need imo. The offense looks pretty good in the near future between Moncada, Anderson, Davidson, Sanchez, Abreu, Jimenez, Robert, Collins, etc. assuming they can keep those guys relatively healthy.

[hogan873]

18 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

They also won 22 consecutive games in the second half. That won’t happen again.

What's more remarkable than winning 22 consecutive games was winning 71 of 100 after going 31-31.  That's damn good baseball for a long time.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

What's more remarkable than winning 22 consecutive games was winning 71 of 100 after going 31-31.  That's damn good baseball for a long time.

Winning 22 consecutive is still more remarkable. And yea, I don’t see them ripping off a 71% winning percentage the last 100 games of this season considering the 22 game win streak was a big part of it (49-29 excluding the win streak - still great but nothing extraordinary).

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

They also won 22 consecutive games in the second half. That won’t happen again.

They were 26-24 on May 31 in 2016 and won 91 games.