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southsider2k5

2018-2019 Official NBA thread

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12 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

 

These two posts greatly sums my issue and frustration with this front office. Doncic was my #1 option, but I also rather have the 4 high ceiling high bust wing players drafted after Carter, or even trade out of this draft to build future assets. But the FO is ok with just drafting safe players in hope of developing the next Jimmy Butler or Taj Gibson. We don't have much to show for in terms of future asset and the current core of this team is pretty low in ceiling as well.

Honestly this reminds me of when Sox  were not willing to take high risk/high reward players in draft, not willing to spend internationally or invest in analytics department. Maybe the Bulls will eventually follow suit once they see success from the Sixers or Suns rebuild.

I just like the wings next year more than the ones who got picked after Carter this year. Next year is wing heavy, so Im fine getting the big now.

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2 hours ago, bmags said:

Also relevant to this all:

 

 

The fact that this is even up for debate shows you just how bad the Jimmy Butler trade was.  Obviously we should not resign LaVine to make the trade look better, but if all we end up with is a serviceable point guard and a pick swap then good fucking god that's beyond terrible.

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3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

For all of the teams that seemed to be willing to give away first round picks for various reasons, I just don't believe that the Bulls weren't willing to take part in some of these deals.  It is so freaking frustrating.

What team "gave away" first round picks?  I don't recall any deals where a team "bought" a first round pick?  

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1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

An interesting name to track going forward will be Brian Bowen.  He was on the same team as Jackson Jr at LaLumiere in high school, and some even thought was a better player than him early in their HS careers. He got caught up in the bribery shoe money scandal, and was drummed out of Louisville.  He had enrolled at South Carolina, but was ruled ineligible by the NCAA so he declared for the draft without having played a second of college ball.  He went undrafted last night, and I would love to see the Bulls try to bring him in to camp.

Very interesting name; would be a great get.  

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https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/the-bulls-gar-forman-and-john-paxson-are-on-the-clock-and-hopefully-hype-free/

Thought this was a solid read from Cowley.  And this is coming from someone who Cowley once called a nerd who lived in a basement...or something along those lines).  

 

Quote

One NBA executive said the draft is top-heavy with fool’s gold, but the area between the 15th and 30th picks is loaded with players close in talent with a lot of upside. That’s why there’s a realistic chance the player the Bulls draft at No. 22 — the pick they received from the Pelicans — will turn out to be better than the player they take at No. 7.

Three dream scenarios for the Bulls

1. They are able to package the No. 7 and No. 22 picks with a future protected first-round pick to move up and grab Marvin Bagley III, the player the coaching staff thinks would be the best fit with Markkanen.

2. They are able to package the No. 7 and No. 22 picks to move up and grab Jaren Jackson Jr., the player the coaching staff thinks would be the second-best fit with Markkanen.

 

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4 hours ago, bmags said:

Also relevant to this all:

 

 

This is so Bulls. LaVine had near-universal support and then returned from a horrific injury to play 24 games and the support is gone? You were confident enough to acquire a player coming off a shredded knee one year ago knowing full-well he'd be a restricted free agent before providing you any value, and now the BULLSHIT is flying?

This is POSTURING by the Bulls. "Oh we've soured on LaVine"... why? This is exactly what you SIGNED UP FOR. To flip like this shows that there's absolutely no plan in place. They are just posturing to wind up saving cash when they decide not to match whatever offer comes his way. Then they'll sell us that he didn't work hard enough or whatever. 

  1. We acquired him despite x because we believe in him
  2. x happened
  3. We have soured on him because of x

That is all complete BULLSHIT.*

 

*Please note I am not saying "match any offer". I am simply pointing out that the logic doesn't add up that they've soured on the kid when nothing has happened that was unexpected.

Edited by Steve9347
f*** the bulls

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7 minutes ago, Steve9347 said:

This is so Bulls. LaVine had near-universal support and then returned from a horrific injury to play 24 games and the support is gone? You were confident enough to acquire a player coming off a shredded knee one year ago knowing full-well he'd be a restricted free agent before providing you any value, and now the BULLSHIT is flying?

This is POSTURING by the Bulls. "Oh we've soured on LaVine"... why? This is exactly what you SIGNED UP FOR. To flip like this shows that there's absolutely no plan in place. They are just posturing to wind up saving cash when they decide not to match whatever offer comes his way. Then they'll sell us that he didn't work hard enough or whatever. 

  1. We acquired him despite x because we believe in him
  2. x happened
  3. We have soured on him because of x

That is all complete BULLSHIT.*

 

*Please note I am not saying "match any offer". I am simply pointing out that the logic doesn't add up that they've soured on the kid when nothing has happened that was unexpected.

I buy this. There is nothing LeVine did during the 2017-18 season that should have altered any thinking on him. I don't know what they could have expected. It seems to me to be a cost saving measure. They sell 2nd round picks for cash, now don't want to pay much for guys they considered their "core". If they really think they can develop superstars, this is the one guy who possesses the skills to be far better than he's been.

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Steve, you are bouncing from two different points of view. On one hand, I agree if they truly soured off of 24 games if their conclusions are based upon on the court performance (when you knew darn well last year would essentially be a lost year). On the flipside, if you have soured because you acquired him and now have major concerns due to work ethic or other unknowns, I suppose I could see that (I don' t think this is the case, but I could buy into it) or if for example he was reinjured or you had other injuries.  

However, if all they are doing is posturing to save cash, well, than I see that as par for the course of any front office and doing what Gar & Pax should be doing.  In general when I read this report, it very much read to me very much as public posturing around his new contract.  With so few teams having big money cap and him having a limited sample size post injury, I still believe he will get an offer much lower than posters on this forum are indicating. However, if he gets a full max offer, if you don't believe he is close to a full max player, than you are going to have to make a move away from Lavine.  

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I think when someone shoots sub 40% people start to wonder, irrespective of knee injury. Also some people seem to think Dunn/Lavine dont really work well together. 

Think there are a lot of reasons they could have soured on Lavine once he got here. Real key is not to overpay him and if necessary cut your losses.

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6 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Steve, you are bouncing from two different points of view. On one hand, I agree if they truly soured off of 24 games if their conclusions are based upon on the court performance (when you knew darn well last year would essentially be a lost year). On the flipside, if you have soured because you acquired him and now have major concerns due to work ethic or other unknowns, I suppose I could see that (I don' t think this is the case, but I could buy into it) or if for example he was reinjured or you had other injuries.  

However, if all they are doing is posturing to save cash, well, than I see that as par for the course of any front office and doing what Gar & Pax should be doing.  In general when I read this report, it very much read to me very much as public posturing around his new contract.  With so few teams having big money cap and him having a limited sample size post injury, I still believe he will get an offer much lower than posters on this forum are indicating. However, if he gets a full max offer, if you don't believe he is close to a full max player, than you are going to have to make a move away from Lavine.  

 He shot 33.7% in March, including 1/11, 3/15, 3/13/ and 4/12. That is extremely concerning even if you give him the benefit of the doubt on being injured. His shot % actually went down from when he came back until he ended. So I absolutely think you could say his play made them really question what his future is. 

Edited by Soxbadger

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1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

 He shot 33.7% in March, including 1/11, 3/15, 3/13/ and 4/12. That is extremely concerning even if you give him the benefit of the doubt on being injured. His shot % actually went down from when he came back until he ended. So I absolutely think you could say his play made them really question what his future is. 

Yeah, though you could say he just lost his legs and he'll be much better conditioned for basketball, something that conditioning for is hard to recreate.

I wouldn't say that, because I have very little confidence in Lavine being good.

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3 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

I think when someone shoots sub 40% people start to wonder, irrespective of knee injury. Also some people seem to think Dunn/Lavine dont really work well together. 

Think there are a lot of reasons they could have soured on Lavine once he got here. Real key is not to overpay him and if necessary cut your losses.

Which is completely rational, but also represents a huge black mark for our front office.  LaVine was a key piece of the Butler trade and to lose him for nothing makes the return pretty fucking disasterous.  In fact, I’d argue that he was perhaps the centerpiece of the deal despite being injured and only having one year of control.  Our front office deemed him worthy of those risks so cutting bait on him now would suggest they are terrible at player evaluations.

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33 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Which is completely rational, but also represents a huge black mark for our front office.  LaVine was a key piece of the Butler trade and to lose him for nothing makes the return pretty fucking disasterous.  In fact, I’d argue that he was perhaps the centerpiece of the deal despite being injured and only having one year of control.  Our front office deemed him worthy of those risks so cutting bait on him now would suggest they are terrible at player evaluations.

The Wolves trade was stupid. Im on record about how much I hated it. I never liked Lavine and I didnt like Dunn. Dunn actually may prove me wrong. Lavine seems like a guy who is going to make a lot of money and one day his best value will be as an expiring contract.

They took a chance on him, it seems to be a miss. But Im actually happy if they decide to cut their losses instead of sticking with him to try and prove how right they were.

It may be his legs were tired, who knows. But those stat lines are pretty brutal, so I guess the hope is no one else wants to take a risk. Maybe in some odd way it turns out in the Bulls favor and they get him at a discount and then he comes back with a chip on his shoulder.

Edited by Soxbadger

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5 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

The Wolves trade was stupid. Im on record about how much I hated it. I never liked Lavine and I didnt like Dunn. Dunn actually may prove me wrong. Lavine seems like a guy who is going to make a lot of money and one day his best value will be as an expiring contract.

They took a chance on him, it seems to be a miss. But Im actually happy if they dont decide to cut their losses instead of sticking with him to try and prove how right they were.

It may be his legs were tired, who knows. But those stat lines are pretty brutal, so I guess the hope is no one else wants to take a risk. Maybe in some odd way it turns out in the Bulls favor and they get him at a discount and then he comes back with a chip on his shoulder.

Couldn't agree more.  The Butler trade was bad, but what's done is done.  Can't change it now.  It would only compound the problem to sign LaVine to a massive deal and then tie up our cap space with a player who isn't a star.

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45 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

 He shot 33.7% in March, including 1/11, 3/15, 3/13/ and 4/12. That is extremely concerning even if you give him the benefit of the doubt on being injured. His shot % actually went down from when he came back until he ended. So I absolutely think you could say his play made them really question what his future is. 

I just am not that worried about his shot. He has a beautiful shot and I think it had a lot more to do with rhythm and in-game repetition.  His jumper had only improved every year prior to injury and form, etc, looks very good. Shot selection was poor...stamina wasn't great (no surprise coming back from injury) and thus you aren't getting your legs underneath you...his timing finishing around the basket was off (again not unexpected). I guess I expected a lot of rust so wasn't that shocked.

To me the big thing was he looked explosive and quick and he still played with an edge (was aggressive...even though he didn't finish...which gave me confidence of his "mental" edge).  Defensively he isn't a good player so that is one where I think it is a matter of how much the coaching staff and how much he's willing to put in that work (he has all the tools to be a quality defender (if not a good defender) but he's got to put in the time, focus and energy.  

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30 minutes ago, dasox24 said:

Couldn't agree more.  The Butler trade was bad, but what's done is done.  Can't change it now.  It would only compound the problem to sign LaVine to a massive deal and then tie up our cap space with a player who isn't a star.

I didn't like the Butler trade but it is done. Of course I wouldn't have traded Butler and I'd be sitting here this year and would have had the franchise positioned to make major free agent offers (whether they worked or not who knows). Heck, I don't even know what the Bulls evaluations were on Lauri and whether they could have moved up to get him a year ago had they kept Jimmy Buckets, etc?  All of those things are hard to say...I was a believer that we had a star signed to a fair deal and were in position to have a lot of cap flexibility and could have been players. I also am (and was) a huge believer in Buckets being the type of guy who can legitimately recruiter players.

Heck, for all I know we could have ended up acquiring Kyrie Irving last year (not saying we had all those assets but maybe Kyrie forces a deal to Chicago vs. Boston (because of his tightness with Buckets).  Nothing I can predict and I'm not going to waste anymore time discussing it. What is done is done and I hope the front office maximizes the opportunities they have from here-out.  

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Bulls signed Donte Ingram for summer league. I know a lot of people wanted him as a second rounder.

Depending on how he does, could make a good two-way deal if Blakeney takes Kilpatrick's spot.

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40 minutes ago, bmags said:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-spt-bulls-wendell-carter-profile-20180623-story.html

Nice little profile piece in the trib on WCJ. Reminds me a lot of the Roquan Smith profiles. These georgia stars always seem to have good heads on their shoulders.

Gordon Beckham?  Hawkeroo?

Herschel Walker might be one of the impressive off the field, fwiw.

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I was watching Nick Friedell yesterday. He claims Pax wants to make the playoffs this year, which would be at best a 7 or 8 seed,and if they are not at least close to making them,  Hoiberg may get canned. So the goal is NBA hell, unless someone like Lebron falls into their lap, which is never going to happen.

 

The other thing that was beyond bizarre, is Hutchinson's claim the Bulls were all over him since he was a sophomore, back when he was averaging 6 pts a game and hitting 23% of his 3s in an average at best conference. Nothing like locking in. I guess Boise State's coach and Hoiberg are buddies. Will Boise State be the new Iowa State for the Bulls?

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That's a bit surprising just due to the Mirotic trade taking them out of a big free agency haul this year.

I would honestly feel bad for Fred in that situation because he basically only had a roster close to his style for about 20 games.

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4 minutes ago, bmags said:

That's a bit surprising just due to the Mirotic trade taking them out of a big free agency haul this year.

I would honestly feel bad for Fred in that situation because he basically only had a roster close to his style for about 20 games.

Yes, I don't know if he can coach at the NBA level or not, but they haven't really provided him with much of a chance to find out. 

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Zach Lowe had a good discussion on the Bulls in his latest podcast. They are in really good position going forward with basically nothing on the books. They'll be able to afford 2 max guys two years from now if they really wanted to (Anthony Davis sweepstakes).

Both Lowe and Kevin Arnovitz agreed that either the Bulls are going to be sneaky good in the next season or two (if Markennan, Carter, Dunn, etc. develop) with lots of room to add max FA's. Or, they'll be a team like Orlando but with no bad contracts.

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11 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Zach Lowe had a good discussion on the Bulls in his latest podcast. They are in really good position going forward with basically nothing on the books. They'll be able to afford 2 max guys two years from now if they really wanted to (Anthony Davis sweepstakes).

Both Lowe and Kevin Arnovitz agreed that either the Bulls are going to be sneaky good in the next season or two (if Markennan, Carter, Dunn, etc. develop) with lots of room to add max FA's. Or, they'll be a team like Orlando but with no bad contracts.

I'll believe the Bulls will sign 1 max guy, let alone 2, when they actually do it. I think the White Sox have a better shot of signing Machado and Harper this offseason than that happening.

Edited by Dick Allen

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