Official NHL COVID season thread

[SoxAce]

It was only a matter of time. Thanks for everything Q. See you in the HOF. 

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

Which is what assistant coaches are for. Exactly that. And there was plenty of debate over the years if Bowman was forcing assistants on Q. But I digress. 

I will say this, if you're on either the "Fire Stan" or "Fire Q" train, you can't be that far off on the other, can you? I'm on the fence on Bowman personally, but thought Q needed to go last year. I'd be on the Clean House train if it wasn't for Stan's drafting. 

[SoxAce]

Laz is an idiot. I'm going to be staying off sports radio for the rest of the day. If anything, both Stan and Q should be gone, not one or the other.

But I'm excited to see what Colliton can do. He is a much more modern analytical guy with current NHL systems and he knows which Rockford players down there will help this team. Excited to see what he can do here. If he fails, Stan has no more excuses. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by SoxAce

[LittleHurt05]

I agree that Bowman is more to blame than Q.  Have to wonder if that's Rocky's decision choosing between the two, I guess we'll see how long Bowman sticks around.

I agree with most of what Laz says, but disagree with the "you can't find a better coach than Q and change for sake of change is foolish" argument.  Plenty of times in sports, change has helped and a "lesser" coach has turned a team around.    You can't fire all the players, but firing a coach could be the kick in the ass they need.

[SoxAce]

Didn't realize Colliton and Seabrook were teammates on WJC teams. That's gotta be weird for him. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by SoxAce

[LittleHurt05]

18 minutes ago, Tony said:

I agree with this when a roster is underperforming. This isn't the case here. The roster is bad. It's bad because of who built it. 

Hey, maybe they come out and surprise me. Hope that's the case. I just don't see it. 

Say Colliton does turn it around and they start playing much better.  What does that lead to, a Wild Card berth instead of missing the playoffs?  Then where does that leave the franchise and Bowman.  Like you say, that's probably their ceiling at best.  

[southsider2k5]

55 minutes ago, Tony said:

Which is what assistant coaches are for. Exactly that. And there was plenty of debate over the years if Bowman was forcing assistants on Q. But I digress. 

That is the one thing under Q that has always amazed me.  With as many amazing skill players as the Hawks have had over the years, the PP has just been amazingly ordinary to awful over the years.

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, Tony said:

And to expand on that point, this roster and team is heading the wrong direction. Coach Q isn't the coach for that "rebuild." I get that. 

It's just the PR approach of getting rid of Q, but keeping the "architect" around that bothers me...

How much of that is Bowman's fault and how much of it is 19/88/2/7 getting older though? It's obvious both Keith and Seabrook aren't the same players they were even in 2015. Toews has had a couple down years too. Father time is undefeated. 

Like I said, re-signing Seabrook and trading Panarin for Saad if they knew Hossa was retiring were the only two moves that are egregious since they won the Cup in 2015. Go look at the 2011 roster and go look at the one that nearly won 3 straight cups, and actually did win 2. Bowman had a lot to do with those rosters. In my mind, he has the remainder of this season, as well as next season to get his shit together. If they're not ascending by summer 2020, then Bowman should be gone or his seat should be on fire at the very least. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

Even though Bowman didn't get fired today, there is no doubt that firing Q puts him on notice.  His time is limited if something doesn't change quickly.

[Jack Parkman]

4 hours ago, Tony said:

Which is why you build around those players with a supporting cast. They have done a piss poor job of that. 

Crosby and Malkin are getting older, too. Both older than Kane and Toews actually. They seem fine.

It takes time, they went for it in 2015 and 2016. I don't blame them for it one bit. It's obvious they really miss those 1st/2nd rounders they traded during those years. They didn't have the cap space to get a supporting cast through FA. Players come and go, championship banners fly forever. They have rebuilt the pipeline over the last two seasons but the help is a season or two away. They needed to take this step back immediately after the 2015 cup. Now, it will be too late for 19/88. That is my disagreement. 

Crosby and Malkin have a cap hit 4+M below 19/88 and they're both better players. Quit using Pittsburgh as a comparable. There is no comparison. Also, did you forget how long they had to wait for the cap to get high enough to put a team around Crosby and Malkin? They lost in the 1st round 4 seasons in a row. from 2011-2015. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

13 minutes ago, Tony said:

I absolutely will not, because they absolutely are a comparable. If you chose not to accept that, that's on you. 

They got an advantage of signing Crosby and Malkin to deals the Hawks didn't have an opportunity to due to timing. Sorry dude. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. They also languished in 1st round exit purgatory for 6 seasons prior to their second two cup wins because of Crosby and Malkin's contracts. Crosby would have a roughly 12.5M caphit over an 8 year term, and if Malkin was up a year or two later he'd be making 11M. If you don't see that as a huge, massive advantage due to nothing more than timing, idk. Both Malkin and Crosby signed their extensions before salaries exploded. The Hawks didn't have that option. Pittsburgh was the beneficiary of dumb luck. 

The only comparable is the Kings and ask them how paying Kopitar and Doughty 22 M combined is working for them. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

Wow.  That is going all in as Ex-players.

[southsider2k5]

 

[Jack Parkman]

I was optimistic until this presser. Not so much anymore, as it is obvious McCub is running the show. I'm not sure he knows a puck from his asshole. 

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Awful.

Stan just tightened the noose around his own neck.

[soxfan49]

6 hours ago, Tony said:

 

Fitting for a guy like Carcillo to say that seeing as if how Bowman signing him was a dumbass & pointless move.

 

9 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

How much of that is Bowman's fault and how much of it is 19/88/2/7 getting older though? It's obvious both Keith and Seabrook aren't the same players they were even in 2015. Toews has had a couple down years too. Father time is undefeated. 

Like I said, re-signing Seabrook and trading Panarin for Saad if they knew Hossa was retiring were the only two moves that are egregious since they won the Cup in 2015. Go look at the 2011 roster and go look at the one that nearly won 3 straight cups, and actually did win 2. Bowman had a lot to do with those rosters. In my mind, he has the remainder of this season, as well as next season to get his shit together. If they're not ascending by summer 2020, then Bowman should be gone or his seat should be on fire at the very least. 

The Bickell signing was a dogshit one, too (and in turn lost them Teuvo). Keeping Kane and Toews is obvious and to debate it is stupid, but there’s no reason why his US scouting department was so terrible. That’s on Bowman. Those are his scouts. He was unable to successfully surround the stars with quality guys. End of story.

Edited November 7, 2018 by soxfan49

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

Fitting for a guy like Carcillo to say that seeing as if how Bowman signing him was a dumbass & pointless move.

 

The Bickell signing was a dogshit one, too (and in turn lost them Teuvo). Keeping Kane and Toews is obvious and to debate it is stupid, but there’s no reason why his US scouting department was so terrible. That’s on Bowman. Those are his scouts. He was unable to successfully surround the stars with guys. 

You can't blame Bowman for Bickell getting MS. Had they diagnosed him correctly, they could have put him on LTIR and kept TT. Q always put TT in his doghouse anyway, so I doubt he'd be as good as he is in Carolina here. Given that it took until today for Q to get fired, I doubt TT would be here anyway. He'd have been traded for less than what the Hawks got in that trade at the time. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[soxfan49]

33 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

You can't blame Bowman for Bickell getting MS. Had they diagnosed him correctly, they could have put him on LTIR and kept TT. Q always put TT in his doghouse anyway, so I doubt he'd be as good as he is in Carolina here. Given that it took until today for Q to get fired, I doubt TT would be here anyway. He'd have been traded for less than what the Hawks got in that trade at the time. 

What? Bickell stunk his entire career except for the 2015 playoffs. He paid him anyway and it backfired. I’m not blaming him for MS- don’t be an idiot- but it’s not like Bickell was even close to being worth $4m a year.

[Jack Parkman]

4 hours ago, Tony said:

At this point, just move on. According to Parkman, because of Toews and Kane holding the contracts they have (that Bowman created by the way), there is no way the Hawks could be successful long term. But because they draft well, Q is mostly to blame for the roster looking like it does right now. 

The fact that Forsling, Dylan Sikura, and Ejdsell  are in Rockford and Plugs like Martinsen, Kunitz and Manning are with the Hawks is 100% on Q. In an era where development of young players is paramount, Q would doghouse them constantly for one mistake. There are countless promising prospects that Bowman ended up trading for nothing because Q wouldn't play them. Daley for Scuderi was 100% Q. The roster looks worse than it had to because Q would rather play geriatric players like Handzus, Slowszival, Scuderi, and Kunitz rather than develop the kids. Q would rather play plugs like Bollig, Mashinter and Martinsen over young players.

TT would never have been a 65 pt player under Q. The best thing that happened to TT is leaving the Hawks. Q's treatment of Jimmy Hayes directly cost the Hawks Kevin Hayes. There are other prospects that weren't put in a position to succeed either.

Q is more to blame for the current state of the roster. He stunted growth much more than people realize. 

Q's unwillingness to adapt to the Modern NHL led to a ton of the poor trades and contracts that you point to. A lot of Bowman's trades were in direct response to Q doghousing young players, or tanking the value of vets by healthy scratching them because they had to trade Oduya and Hjalmarsson. 

He 100% deserved to be fired today. 

Q is a great coach for a talented group of players looking to take a step to Cup contention. He is the wrong coach for a retool or rebuild. 

Ask Daley and Kempny how grateful they ars that Q doghoused them and they go win a ring the same season they are traded, while playing a significant role. What a genius Q is. 

I'm shocked that I have to defend Stan this much. Blaming him is just being lazy or not accepting the major role Q had in the roster derailment. I'm not saying Stan is without any fault, but Q is getting all of the credit and none of the blame, and the opposite is true of Stan. The truth is somewhere in the middle. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[soxfan49]

10 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

The fact that Forsling, Dylan Sikura, and Ejdsell  are in Rockford and Plugs like Martinsen, Kunitz and Manning are with the Hawks is 100% on Q. In an era where development of young players is paramount, Q would doghouse them constantly for one mistake. There are countless promising prospects that Bowman ended up trading for nothing because Q wouldn't play them. Daley for Scuderi was 100% Q. The roster looks worse than it had to because Q would rather play geriatric players like Handzus, Slowszival, Scuderi, and Kunitz rather than develop the kids. Q would rather play plugs like Bollig, Mashinter and Martinsen over young players.

Who signed Kunitz? Quenneville?

Forsling would 100% be in the NHL if he was any good. He's also recovering from an injury, IIRC.

This "develop the kids" hatred of Quenneville is so overblown. He played Niemi. He played Kane. He played Toews. He played Eager. He played Ladd. He played Versteeg. He played Brouwer. He played Byfuglien. He played Bolland. He played Bickell. He played Hjalmarsson. He played Kruger. He played Panarin. He played Saad. He played Leddy. He played Teuvo. He played Hartman. He played Frolik. He played Bollig. He played Shaw. He's playing Debrincat. He's playing Schmaltz. He's playing Jokiharju. 

There are COUNTLESS examples of him "playing the kids." There are also countless examples of "kids" that people wanted him to play that sucked- Hayes, Nordstrom, Pirri, Clendening, Morin, Rundblad, Barker, Dahlbeck, Baun, Ben Smith, Stalberg, Skille, Dowell, etc.

What lesson did you just learn? If you're decent and give a s*** defensively or you're really good offensively or really good defensively, Quenneville would have found a spot for you. The only reason they dealt Teuvo is so Carolina would take the Bickell contract (that apparently Quenneville gave out).

TT would never have been a 65 pt player under Q. The best thing that happened to TT is leaving the Hawks. Q's treatment of Jimmy Hayes directly cost the Hawks Kevin Hayes. There are other prospects that weren't put in a position to succeed either.

Please elaborate on what players weren't put in a position to succeed under Quenneville that went on to be very good elsewhere.

Jimmy Hayes sucks. He's never had 20 goals in a season and is a -2 over the course of his career. Jimmy's terrible play costed the Hawks Kevin, not Quenneville. Speaking of which, Kevin hasn't been great in his career either.

Q is more to blame for the current state of the roster. He stunted growth much more than people realize. 

Oh for gods sake. See point #1.

Q's unwillingness to adapt to the Modern NHL led to a ton of the poor trades and contracts that you point to. A lot of Bowman's trades were in direct response to Q doghousing young players, or tanking the value of vets by healthy scratching them because they had to trade Oduya and Hjalmarsson. 

Wait, Quenneville's unwillingness to adapt to the modern NFL *forced* Bowman to trade poorly and sign awful contracts? Stop.

He 100% deserved to be fired today. 

And so did Bowman.

Q is a great coach for a talented group of players looking to take a step to Cup contention. He is the wrong coach for a retool or rebuild. 

And a guy who can't draft is a great GM for a retool or rebuild?

Ask Daley and Kempny how grateful they ars that Q doghoused them and they go win a ring the same season they are traded, while playing a significant role. What a genius Q is. 

Daley was 30 when he was here and is a +6 over 11 NHL seasons. Kempny will never be better than a #4. What's your point?

I'm shocked that I have to defend Stan this much. Blaming him is just being lazy or not accepting the major role Q had in the roster derailment. I'm not saying Stan is without any fault, but Q is getting all of the credit and none of the blame, and the opposite is true of Stan. The truth is somewhere in the middle. 

Besides Debrincat, which draft pick or young player they've acquired has been your favorite over the last 5 years? Maybe when you have to sit and ponder that question, you'll know why you have to defend him so much.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by soxfan49

[Jack Parkman]

@soxfan49

To answer your question, I think Kunitz, Ward, and Manning were guys that Q went to bat for and Stan signed them to let Q hang himself. I do not think any of the three, with the possible exception of Ward, would be with the Hawks if it was up to Stan.  Over the years, it has become obvious who the Q guys and Stan guys are. Kunitz and Manning have Q's name stamped on their asses. I am convinced that Stan has deferred to Q and was the GM in name only since the Daley fiasco. I put the majority of the personnel decisions, starting with the Daley-Scuderi trade on Q. I think that is the reason why Stan has a reasonable amount of job security, and Q is gone. I believe this roster is on Q, not Stan.  I think Stan gave Q carte blanche on NHL roster decisions and let him hang himself. 

With regard to "besides Debrincat, who else did you like over the last 5 years?" Nick Schmaltz and Forsling to name a few. I really liked Danault too, but Q wouldn't play him over Kruger when it was obvious who was better. Gee, he's having success as a 3rd liner in MTL. I liked Marko Dano too, but he got squeezed out in WPG, and Q never put him with talented enough players here.  TT was always in Q's doghouse. Danault and TT are better away from the Hawks than they would have been here. I don't blame Stan for Kruger's contract. I believe that if Stan had his way, Kruger would have walked after 2015 and been replaced by Danault. Obviously, this is all speculation but that is my belief. 

I laugh at the idea that Bowman has sucked at drafting. That is the most preposterous thing I have heard. They didn't have a 1st or 2nd in 2015, and the 2/3 2nds they had in 2016 were from Shaw. Their two high 2nds were DeBrincat and Kayumov, who is a decent prospect. Out of the 7 first round picks that Stan has made from 2010-2017, exactly 1 is not in the NHL currently, and all others are at the very least 3rd liners. Jury is still out on Boqvist and Beaudin, but I really like them. TT and Jokiharju are really good for where they were drafted. Most NHLers are 1st or 2nd round picks. Name me another GM with a better track record of drafting.  Not to mention 2nd round gems like Saad and DeBrincat, and he got Shaw in the 5th round who was an integral part of the 2 later cup teams. You don't expect 3rd-7th round picks to become anything. The percentage is very low. When you get one it is a huge bonus. 

Nobody knows how Bickell would have played had he not come down with MS. He absolutely could have been a 20-20 or 25-20 player playing with Toews and Hossa. Do you forget how much of a beast he was in the 2013 playoffs? We'll never know. Blame the team medical staff for losing TT, not Stan. Even so, I doubt TT would be this good here. He found himself in Q's shithouse constantly. 

The fact that Q tanked Daley's value, Stan traded him for Scuderi, and Q played Scuderi the remainder of his time here is an indictment on Q's coaching ability. I blame that barrage of moves 100% on Q. I'd bet Scuderi was a Q request. Q is an idiot. Yes, Kempny is a #4 defenseman but he was something the Hawks needed at the time. It came out last year that Q healthy scratched Murphy for the sole reason that Hjalmarsson wasn't here. That sounds like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum because he lost his blanket. 

I believe much more in Stan's vision in roster construction than Q's. The power struggle existed, no matter the public denial, and the power struggle on personnel is what tanked the team. I believe over the last few years, that Stan has deferred to Q so he could let him hang himself, and that is exactly what Q did. Someone is going to be right and someone is going to be wrong over the next few years. If I'm wrong, I'll own it. I expect Stan to come out looking a lot better in a year or two after it all comes out that this was all a Q power play. Stan might have been the GM in name, but I think it was Q calling the shots since the Daley fiasco. I think the team will be in a much better place by the end of next year. 

I'm not going to argue this anymore. I strongly disagree with most of your points. We'll have to agree to disagree. 

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[soxfan49]

If you don't include 2017 or 2018 since it's too early to make determinations, since 2012 he has drafted two good players (Debrincat, Terevainen), two mediocre players (Hinostroza, Hayden) and one player who might be good (Schmaltz). That's it. The rest of the guys haven't made an NHL impact.

If you call a first line player, two 2nd line players and two bottom 6 players in FIVE years "good drafting," that's your prerogative.  

Quenneville didn't play Murphy because he isn't good. Stop making it out to be "he wanted to get fired and was upset about trading Hjalmarsson." He wouldn't have voluntarily tried to get fired and lose out on millions of dollars. You sound stupid.

Edited November 7, 2018 by soxfan49

[southsider2k5]

Probably, I mean let's face it.  No matter where the fault lies, the die has been cast.  If Q is really the hero in this story, the Hawks will continue to lose, and Bowman is on the hot seat now anyway.  It is now officially his team, with no one else to hide behind.  If this continues to deteriorate, Bowman is next.  If Q was part of the problem, in theory we should see some improvement, and that is what we really want.

[Jack Parkman]

11 hours ago, soxfan49 said:

If you don't include 2017 or 2018 since it's too early to make determinations, since 2012 he has drafted two good players (Debrincat, Terevainen), two mediocre players (Hinostroza, Hayden) and one player who might be good (Schmaltz). That's it. The rest of the guys haven't made an NHL impact.

If you call a first line player, two 2nd line players and two bottom 6 players in FIVE years "good drafting," that's your prerogative.  

Quenneville didn't play Murphy because he isn't good. Stop making it out to be "he wanted to get fired and was upset about trading Hjalmarsson." He wouldn't have voluntarily tried to get fired and lose out on millions of dollars. You sound stupid.

For where he was drafting, absolutely. It is really hard to get a 1st line player outside of the top 15 of the draft. Schmaltz put up 52 points last year, so I think it is pretty established he's an up and coming player. Hartman was drafted with the last pick in the 1st round. It is more than reasonable to expect nothing more than a 3rd liner out of a bottom 10 pick. It is unreasonable to expect a top 6 F or top 2 D out of every 1st round pick. 

I'm staying out of this thread until the dust settles a bit from this. The amount of hate for Stan is ludicrous. I stand by my belief that this is Q's roster, and don't be shocked if Kunitz and Manning are waived/released by the end of January, and Martinsen is in the Rock where he belongs ASAP. If those three players remain on the roster for the entirety of the season, I'll eat crow. 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]