Jump to content

Re-defining what a pitcher having "good or great stuff" actually means


Jack Parkman
 Share

Recommended Posts

I think we all need to re-think what "good stuff" for a pitcher actually is

I think it is a combination of the following:

1. Spin on pitches

2.  Achieving swings and misses from MLB hitters on a given pitch

3. Being able to achieve the backwards K vs MLB hitters. 

I think velocity is secondary to these three things. 

I bring this up to start a discussion on how to define "stuff" and why sometimes a pitcher with great velocity and movement on breaking pitches continues to get hammered and not miss bats, while someone like Buehrle could get MLB hitters out for the great majority of his career, even without gaining tons of strikeouts. 

 

Edited by Jack Parkman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think of it very simply.  The batter has a really good idea what is coming and he still can't  handle it.  All the things you mention enter into it but for any pitcher any one may come into play.  The exception to my own statement might be the guy with four good pitches that can get you out because you can't guess what is coming.  Maybe great is here it is , it don't matter, you aint hitting it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think we all need to re-think what "good stuff" for a pitcher actually is

I think it is a combination of the following:

1. Spin on pitches

2.  Achieving swings and misses from MLB hitters on a given pitch

3. Being able to achieve the backwards K vs MLB hitters. 

I think velocity is secondary to these three things. 

I bring this up to start a discussion on how to define "stuff" and why sometimes a pitcher with great velocity and movement on breaking pitches continues to get hammered and not miss bats, while someone like Buehrle could get MLB hitters out for the great majority of his career, even without gaining tons of strikeouts. 

 

So velocity is secondary, but Dane Dunning isn’t going to make with a “90 to 92 MPH”?  Maybe you should reference this post in the future when you start writing off Dane again.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So velocity is secondary, but Dane Dunning isn’t going to make with a “90 to 92 MPH”?  Maybe you should reference this post in the future when you start writing off Dane again.

THANK YOU! He also said Kyle Hendricks is garbage cause he throws 86-88 and is "smoke and mirrors" despite the fact he's been one of the better starters in the NL going on what.. three years now before editing his post several times... Here's one of the threads here on FS board.

Edited by SoxAce
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spin rate and horizontal/vertical movement, and velocity and velocity deltas, mostly. When scouts talk about "stuff" I think they are usually discussing it independent of results. A guy with good "stuff" gets good results if he can mix and command his pitches to fool hitters. A guy with bad "stuff" can still get good results if he is really good at mixing and commanding (Kyle Hendricks, latter-day Bartolo, etc). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/16/2018 at 6:19 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

So velocity is secondary, but Dane Dunning isn’t going to make with a “90 to 92 MPH”?  Maybe you should reference this post in the future when you start writing off Dane again.

Lopez/Hendricks are causing me to re-evaluate my view on stuff. For some reason Lopez has great velocity, A good FB-CH split and decent movement on a breaking ball and he still doesn't miss bats. There has to be something more. I know there have always been pitchers that have thrown less than 90 and get hitters out. I'm trying to figure out what it is that cause pitchers with all of the right velocity metrics to just not miss bats and those who have "nothing" to get hitters out on  a regular basis. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So velocity is secondary, but Dane Dunning isn’t going to make with a “90 to 92 MPH”?  Maybe you should reference this post in the future when you start writing off Dane again.

Seems weird to give  guy crap after he has clearly re-thought his position and changed his mind a bit.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/15/2018 at 9:57 PM, Jack Parkman said:

I think we all need to re-think what "good stuff" for a pitcher actually is

I think it is a combination of the following:

1. Spin on pitches

2.  Achieving swings and misses from MLB hitters on a given pitch

3. Being able to achieve the backwards K vs MLB hitters. 

I think velocity is secondary to these three things. 

 

I am fairly certain that velo is a prerequisite to #2 and #3. Perhaps everyone who has #2 and #3 doesn't have velo. However, generally speaking - it certainly helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well good stuff basically means swing and misses regardless of velo. When a guy has elite stuff he gets swings and misses on chases but also within the zone. It is good to get chases a few inches off or on a high fastball but when you watch guys like scherzer they will get some misses on pretty fat pitches. That doesn't mean he can survive throwing dickshots all the time, he needs to locate too but it helps if you fall behind to be able to throw a slightly elevated fastball middle in and still get a miss or foul.

 

Zone contact% is a good indicator. League average is around 85%. If it is 80 it is great, approaching high 80s is worrisome (can find z con on fangraphs player page under plate discipline).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's the ability to generate sings and misses and backwards Ks and soft contact.  Now, HOW you get those things is above my pay grade.  Obviously it helps to have velocity, spin rate and pinpoint command.  I'd say a necessary (but not sufficient) component of that is having at least two pitches you can throw for a strike in any count.  Like when Nate Jones comes out and throws 10 straight fastballs it doesn't matter if it's 96-97 because timing wise, he has no threat of an offspeed pitch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...