BigSqwert Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 And can we alter the title of this thread? I feel guilty thinking of fat jokes every time I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 minute ago, BigSqwert said: And can we alter the title of this thread? I feel guilty thinking of fat jokes every time I see it. That's your own hangup dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 21 minutes ago, BigSqwert said: I personally don't even think this line of thinking and action is about votes. GoSox05 posted this article in another thread that gets to the heart of the matter IMO. It's a good read even if you may not agree with the content. One snippet: Another great tweet on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 21 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Jesus Christ, you wrote "Harley Davidson taking a few jobs out of the country" is a "body blow" on the day that the Court upheld the Muslim ban thanks entirely to a Supreme Court seat they rewrote all the rules to take, and the day after they approved the racial gerrymanders in Texas and North Carolina that will help them keep the House this fall? 20 minutes ago, BigSqwert said: I personally don't even think this line of thinking and action is about votes. GoSox05 posted this article in another thread that gets to the heart of the matter IMO. It's a good read even if you may not agree with the content. One snippet: Okay maybe Im completely misunderstanding. Are you guys suggesting that we should go outside of the govt system to try and effectuate change? Such as revolution etc? Or are you saying that we should play within the system to try and win? Because if its the former its an entirely different discussion. If its the latter, then way to win is by getting more votes. You win elections, you get to pick SC judges. You win elections, you get to write laws. You win elections, you get to undo what Trump has done. You win elections... Notice how this begins and ends with "Winning elections." If Republicans win the next 2 elections, it could have devastating consequences. So instead of worrying about spitting in her food, Im worry about... Winning elections. Maybe thats the difference between Republicans and Democrats. All they do is try and win elections. They dont give a fuck about policy or whatever, they just care about getting 1 more vote and will do whatever it takes to get it. Thats what I care about. Because if you win elections, you get to determine the course of the US. If you lose, you sit on the sidelines and spit in food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 23 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I think that we have turned a blind eye to people who should have been disgraced long ago as they kept getting jobs over at Fox News and elsewhere. Legitimate criminals like Oliver North, the architects of the Bush administration's torture policy, outright racists like Pat Buchanan. Polite society has not shunned them even when they ordered despicable acts or committed outright crimes, and the end result has been that they continued working to undermine polite society. The people who are in this administration should never, ever hold jobs in public service again. They should be working in the mailroom somewhere in South Carolina. They should feel uncomfortable about what they did every single day of their lives. You do realize none of this is going to happen. And the idea that you can control a cable TV network that is about making money is just out there. The powers that be at FOX news would put anything on their network if they thought it would increase their share price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Soxbadger said: Okay maybe Im completely misunderstanding. Are you guys suggesting that we should go outside of the govt system to try and effectuate change? Such as revolution etc? Or are you saying that we should play within the system to try and win? Because if its the former its an entirely different discussion. If its the latter, then way to win is by getting more votes. You win elections, you get to pick SC judges. You win elections, you get to write laws. You win elections, you get to undo what Trump has done. You win elections... Notice how this begins and ends with "Winning elections." If Republicans win the next 2 elections, it could have devastating consequences. So instead of worrying about spitting in her food, Im worry about... Winning elections. Maybe thats the difference between Republicans and Democrats. All they do is try and win elections. They dont give a fuck about policy or whatever, they just care about getting 1 more vote and will do whatever it takes to get it. Thats what I care about. Because if you win elections, you get to determine the course of the US. If you lose, you sit on the sidelines and spit in food. Tolerating these people, letting them back into civil society, letting the people who ordered wars and torture come back and campaign like they did not commit war crimes...that is helping us lose elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: Tolerating these people, letting them back into civil society, letting the people who ordered wars and torture come back and campaign like they did not commit war crimes...that is helping us lose elections. Who are tolerating these people Democrats or Republicans? Im not even sure what the argument is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Just now, Soxbadger said: Who are tolerating these people Democrats or Republicans? Im not even sure what the argument is here. For example, you, who want society to politely treat them as though what they're doing is normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Just now, Balta1701 said: For example, you, who want society to politely treat them as though what they're doing is normal. I want to win elections. How does treating Sanders poorly win the next election. Where have I said what they are doing is normal? Ive consistently said what you are suggesting will hurt the Democrats chances of winning. You have yet to address this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 51 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If the premise is that the Democrats will win by acting more like Trump, I think they have already lost. Over the past decade (at least), the Republican Party has moved further and further to the Right, allowing somebody like Donald Trump to not only earn the Republican nomination, but also get elected President of the United States. The policies that were fringe ideas during the Bush II Administration are now mainstream Republican positions. And when Donald Trump acts insane, and lies over and over and over again, a few Republicans issue chastise him and then go back to carrying his water because they are terrified of offending his base (and maybe his policies aren't that extreme to them). The Republican Party changed the rules to steal a Supreme Court seat that Obama should have appointed. They threw out the rules of decorum when it benefited them, and they got a lifetime appointment out of it - an appointment that probably swung both the cases that were decided today. There is a reason for anger on the left. This administration's words and actions toward minority communities are as bad as I have ever seen in my life in this country. And the left sees that the Republican Party was moved further and further to the right by the loudest and most extreme faction of their party. My issue with the Sanders stuff is that the Left just isn't as good at playing this game. The Conservative media (with a major assist from the mainstream media) continues to make Sarah Huckabee Sanders a martyr when she has not been treated nearly as badly as the President treats sitting Senators from his Twitter account (seriously, stop using a racial slur for Elizabeth Warren). That's red meat for the Republican base, and it's the type of thing that might turn off independent voters who the Democrats need to take back the House, and keep a reasonable margin (or even win back) the Senate. Keep up the heat on the issues. Keep showing how the Trump administration is failing the environment. Keep showing how the Trump administration's immigration policies are abhorrent and the anti-thesis of the American ideal. Keep showing the grift in Cabinet (hello Pruitt). Keep the spotlight on the complete and utter failure of the trade policies, and how the Administration pisses off our allies while cozying up to dictators (hey, maybe point out that we're already back to pointing out that the NK nuclear threat remains - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/us/politics/north-korea-national-emergency-trump-nuclear.html). You aren't going to win over his base, but you sure can win over independents and expand the tent with new voters. End rant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 minute ago, illinilaw08 said: My issue with the Sanders stuff is that the Left just isn't as good at playing this game. The Conservative media (with a major assist from the mainstream media) continues to make Sarah Huckabee Sanders a martyr when she has not been treated nearly as badly as the President treats sitting Senators from his Twitter account (seriously, stop using a racial slur for Elizabeth Warren). That's red meat for the Republican base, and it's the type of thing that might turn off independent voters who the Democrats need to take back the House, and keep a reasonable margin (or even win back) the Senate. Keep up the heat on the issues. Keep showing how the Trump administration is failing the environment. Keep showing how the Trump administration's immigration policies are abhorrent and the anti-thesis of the American ideal. Keep showing the grift in Cabinet (hello Pruitt). Keep the spotlight on the complete and utter failure of the trade policies, and how the Administration pisses off our allies while cozying up to dictators (hey, maybe point out that we're already back to pointing out that the NK nuclear threat remains - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/us/politics/north-korea-national-emergency-trump-nuclear.html). You aren't going to win over his base, but you sure can win over independents and expand the tent with new voters. End rant... You said it in more words, but this is what I was trying to get at. There is no point in playing a game that will result in more losses. Its not that Im not mad/angry/whatever, its that I want to win. And I will do whatever it takes to win, even if that means I have to be "polite" to people that may be monsters. Once the elections are won, then you can get real revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 If Dems do what Balta (and others) suggests, the Dem party gains nothing. You normalize this sort of behavior. The independents you hope to gain will think "well both parties suck" and not vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: You said it in more words, but this is what I was trying to get at. There is no point in playing a game that will result in more losses. Its not that Im not mad/angry/whatever, its that I want to win. And I will do whatever it takes to win, even if that means I have to be "polite" to people that may be monsters. Once the elections are won, then you can get real revenge. It's tough for many of us to sit back and be quiet/polite (read: do nothing) and wait a few years while we are witnessing an escalating number of families, people of color, Muslims, and the LGBTQ community being severely harmed in the last year and a half. It's easy for a bunch of white people not being directly impacted to say "just wait until election time". Edited June 26, 2018 by BigSqwert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 hour ago, BigSqwert said: And can we alter the title of this thread? I feel guilty thinking of fat jokes every time I see it. Calling women fat, nice! That will show her! #MeToo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said: If Dems do what Balta (and others) suggests, the Dem party gains nothing. You normalize this sort of behavior. The independents you hope to gain will think "well both parties suck" and not vote. Republicans: Yes, we are locking up children in cages and banning Muslims from coming to America Democrats: We refused service to a public official. Independent: Wow, It's like I can't even tell them apart. Edited June 26, 2018 by GoSox05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said: Calling women fat, nice! That will show her! #MeToo I'm sure her boss has called her that to her face at least a few times. He's a standup guy, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Just now, GoSox05 said: Republicans: Yes, we are locking up children in cages and banning Muslims from coming to America Democrats: We refused service to a public official. Independent: Wow, It's like I can't even tell them apart. I would say the majority of the country, republicans included, were not happy with admn's family separation policy. The attention that story drew, and the clear dislike from a large portion of Trump's base, resulted in Trump changing his position in about a 3 day period of time. Instead of continuing to pressure him on change, one of your reps decided it would instead be better to rile up mobs to go after cabinet/admn members in public places. She stole all the headlines for a day and the immigration issue is/was essentially over. There's a time and a place. There are important targets and not important targets. I'd say not serving the press secretary, days after the gay wedding cake decision came out, was a pretty dumb move, made worse by someone who should have known better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, BigSqwert said: It's tough for many of us to sit back and be quiet/polite (read: do nothing) and wait a few years while we are witnessing an escalating number of families, people of color, Muslims, and the LGBTQ community being severely harmed in the last year and a half. It's easy for a bunch of white people not being directly impacted to say "just wait until election time". That isnt what Im saying at all. Im asking you, what do you propose to do to actually impact change. What is your other option. If you have another option that can change things, I would love to see it/hear it/whatever. There are rules of the game that we are playing, and if you know some sort of way around these rules, please enlighten us. But otherwise you have to win the game you are playing. And again, im not saying do nothing, Im saying do what you can within the confines of the system/game. You want do so something, go convince those people who are getting hammered to vote. Explain to them this is the consequence of people not voting. There are more people who disagree with Trump than who agree with him. But on election day those people need to show. They need to convince their friends to vote, anyone they know. Becaus that is how you win this game. And then once you are in power, you rig the game in your favor. And yes I know Democrats did a really shitty job of rigging it when Obama was President. They tried to be somewhat fair. And I have no problem if people say that the Democrats should do what the Republicans did, refuse to seat SC justices, etc. The Republican's changed those rules, and I would smash them in the face with their changes. But again, how is spitting in their food changing the dynamics of what is about to happen. The whole reason we got in this mess is because not enough people voted. And that is the way we get out. 3 minutes ago, GoSox05 said: Republicans: Yes, we are locking up children in cages and banning Muslims from coming to America Democrats: We refused service to a public official. Independent: Wow, It's like I can't even tell them apart. The problem is you arent putting yourself in the mind of someone who is truly independent. If this was all so easy, Democrats would win running away every time. If it was so easy to convince people how horrific Trump was, he wouldnt be President. So maybe the problem with Democrats is that they seem to think its so simple and that their point of view is so easy for independents and everyone else to see as "correct." Ive still yet to see a persuasive argument about how Democrats are more likely to win the next election because of this Sanders shit. Which is really all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said: I would say the majority of the country, republicans included, were not happy with admn's family separation policy. The attention that story drew, and the clear dislike from a large portion of Trump's base, resulted in Trump changing his position in about a 3 day period of time. Instead of continuing to pressure him on change, one of your reps decided it would instead be better to rile up mobs to go after cabinet/admn members in public places. She stole all the headlines for a day and the immigration issue is/was essentially over. There's a time and a place. There are important targets and not important targets. I'd say not serving the press secretary, days after the gay wedding cake decision came out, was a pretty dumb move, made worse by someone who should have known better. Jenks, Some people will never see it this way. In my opinion this is all a blown opportunity. There were good arguments, and instead it was blown on some nonsense that is entirely irrelevant. But hey Sanders couldnt eat somewhere! BIG WIN FOR IMMIGRANTS GUYS BIG WIN! (edit) Its like they dont even understand the Trump narrative. He wants you to spit on his peoples food. He wants you to deny them service. That is the shit they used to lie about all the time, now they actually have proof. Edited June 26, 2018 by Soxbadger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: Im saying do what you can within the confines of the system/game. 1 How is publically shaming this administration not within the confines of the system? They should be mocked and ridiculed every time they go out in public and it's completely legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 minute ago, BigSqwert said: How is publically shaming this administration not within the confines of the system? They should be mocked and ridiculed every time they go out in public and it's completely legal. Does the team that shames the most public officials get to pick he next SC justice? Does the team who has been shamed the most lose seats in the Senate? Im wondering how you think this wins the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: Does the team that shames the most public officials get to pick he next SC justice? Does the team who has been shamed the most lose seats in the Senate? Im wondering how you think this wins the game. People's lives aren't a game to me. That where we have fundamentally different perspectives. If someone took my daughter away for 10 minutes I'd start cracking skulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 I'm sure all the elections will be totally upended in 6 months because Sarah H. Sanders couldn't eat dinner one night in June. No Independent was going to vote Democrat because he saw the torture of children and couldn't possibly vote for Trump, but then changed their mind because of that. They were just always going to vote for Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, BigSqwert said: People's lives aren't a game to me. That where we have fundamentally different perspectives. If someone took my daughter away for 10 minutes I'd start cracking skulls. Its all a game. I know its hard to disassociate from the world that way, but that is the reality of everything. You start cracking skulls, you go to jail for a long time. Then you maybe never see your daughter again or maybe worse, maybe they kill you on the spot. Is that an acceptable outcome for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 minute ago, GoSox05 said: I'm sure all the elections will be totally upended in 6 months because Sarah H. Sanders couldn't eat dinner one night in June. No Independent was going to vote Democrat because he saw the torture of children and couldn't possibly vote for Trump, but then changed their mind because of that. They were just always going to vote for Trump. Again not the point. Does doing this to Sanders give you a better or worse chance of winning. If you think better, do it. If you think worse, dont. So if you personally think it will help win, then by all means do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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