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White Sox @ Reds, 7/3/18, 6:10 pm CDT


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16 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I won't doubt him. He is a stud. My biggest complaint is the tank/rebuild people don't seem to want ANY current White Sox who have been around a while on our WS teams. I contend Avi and Abreu will be perfect veterans on the WS teams. Also I feel the trade/tank people for some odd reason don't want to pay any players ... ever. Cause even they admit Moncada and Eloy and guys like that will walk when it's time for them to get paid. In conclusion ... the rebuilders don't want any old guys on the WS teams and they certainly don't want to pay Avi or Abreu real money. Very bizarre behavior IMO.

Avi and Jose are not going to be part of the contending team in 2020+.  Hopefully they play out of their asses the next 3 weeks and get us some stud prospects!  Mentors don’t win championships.

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26 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Benetti has talent. He's a good announcer.

39 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Seriously how could any baseball fan not realize he's a great hitter in the making? The eye test is enough on Moncada for gosh sakes. His critics are being baseball stupid IMO.

OMFG, Greg the voice of reason?? Wow. 

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Jason is a dipstick who says lots of dumb things. Stone is losing his mind. Neither of them has much to say about the hallowed rebuild. They are just filling dead air btw the hot dog promos. 

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25 minutes ago, tray said:

Avi has developed into a .300 hitter with power. He keeps getting better but some people just keep doubting him.
I wouldn't trade him unless the offer was overwhelming. It is hard to get All-Star level player at any position let alaone someone who hit .330 over an entire season.

I swear to god some of you must of have not followed the Sox very closely in recent years.  Avi has had plenty of stretches like this before and every time people buy into it like he’s finally breaking through before we all realize it was just a hot stretch.  I really hope he proves me wrong and makes me look like a total asshole because the talent is there, but I’m not buying it based on a couple of good games.

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29 minutes ago, tray said:

Avi has developed into a .300 hitter with power. He keeps getting better but some people just keep doubting him.
I wouldn't trade him unless the offer was overwhelming. It is hard to get All-Star level player at any position let alaone someone who hit .330 over an entire season.

I tend to agree.  With Avi, it appears that the Sox finally have a hitter who is a) really good and b) ascending.  This FO has spent so many resources and so much energy over the past decade chasing players who are past their prime.    Those are the players to trade away.
Regardless, they don't need to move Avi anytime soon.

On another note, I thought Santiago's best work in his first Sox stint was as a short-stint reliever.  Really nice effort tonight in that regard.

Edited by GreenSox
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1 hour ago, greg775 said:

I can't believe there are fans out there who don't care about intangibles in sports at all. Avi and Abreu are good examples for all the Spanish speaking ballplayers as well as the English speaking ballplayers. My feeling is some of you actually think we can win a pennant without any veterans. I guess some of you might want a veteran starter and think that's enough. My feeling is also you want to win WS titles with payrolls of about 70 million total. Why you guys feel this way amazes me. I could give a damn about Jerry Reinsdorf's wallet. I hope he pays money for ballplayers until it hurts. He doesn't care about my wallet; why should I care about his?

Megan Trainor said it best.

No.

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Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Avi did have a great season in 2017, but he’s incredibly unlikely to repeat that batting average.  And without such a high batting average, he’s not a great offensive player unless the power comes around.  What I don’t get is why you are taking it personal.  I don’t think Avi sucks, I’m just not prepared to pay him top dollar based on an outlier season.  And we don’t have to rely on all the prospects I mentioned, but there are better guys we can spend our money on that Avi.

Not taking it too personal just a wee bit. And we basically agree there's no reason to sign him long term . But you did start off by saying he sucked earlier in the season like it was some proof that he had reverted back to his 1st few seasons when it was an incredibly small sample size .

Maybe I do sound like it's personal but in my mind there's an over reliance on stats and not enough on what goes on between the white lines. Every positive gets spun negatively  every negative in the case of prospects gets spun positively and you guys are considered the smart ones while the rest of us are whiners. I don't ignore stats of course but the group dynamic comes into play way too often and I feel like i get lumped in with some of the posters some of us don't take really seriously . I don't like defensive metrics much or pitch framing stats and BABIP gets mentioned way too often.  I've been around long enough and read plenty of arguments to see that more than half of the people trying to use advanced stats have no idea how to use them. Not saying thats you.

There's a lot of concern about the 3 true outcomes in baseball and talk of banning shifts . I say learn to hit to all fields and put the ball in play if you don't like it. A walk, while a great thing is boring. Strikeouts are boring . I want to see people flying around the bases but certainly I am not against trotting around the bases either.

I'm trying to say baseball's a great game when it's played the right way and and I'm sorry if I came off like an ass. It's just hard to believe people can be so critical when there's a lot to be positive about with Avi. We are all warned constantly about SSS an to see it used for 8 games while ignoring all of last year just bugged me. Trust me I looked at the game logs way before we had this conversation so I was loaded for bear when Avi critics showed up in the midst of an incredible hot streak like no one currently on the Sox can do when combining high batting average and just tattooing the ball all over the park with HR's to left , left center, center  and right center, a triple high off the wall,  a couple doubles ,

You have to admit that, yea, we have seen Avi get hot before, but never with this many HR's in such a short period of time. I just wanted to enjoy it and maybe should 've stayed out of the game thread .

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19 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Not taking it too personal just a wee bit. And we basically agree there's no reason to sign him long term . But you did start off by saying he sucked earlier in the season like it was some proof that he had reverted back to his 1st few seasons when it was an incredibly small sample size .

Maybe I do sound like it's personal but in my mind there's an over reliance on stats and not enough on what goes on between the white lines. Every positive gets spun negatively  every negative in the case of prospects gets spun positively and you guys are considered the smart ones while the rest of us are whiners. I don't ignore stats of course but the group dynamic comes into play way too often and I feel like i get lumped in with some of the posters some of us don't take really seriously . I don't like defensive metrics much or pitch framing stats and BABIP gets mentioned way too often.  I've been around long enough and read plenty of arguments to see that more than half of the people trying to use advanced stats have no idea how to use them. Not saying thats you.

There's a lot of concern about the 3 true outcomes in baseball and talk of banning shifts . I say learn to hit to all fields and put the ball in play if you don't like it. A walk, while a great thing is boring. Strikeouts are boring . I want to see people flying around the bases but certainly I am not against trotting around the bases either.

I'm trying to say baseball's a great game when it's played the right way and and I'm sorry if I came off like an ass. It's just hard to believe people can be so critical when there's a lot to be positive about with Avi. We are all warned constantly about SSS an to see it used for 8 games while ignoring all of last year just bugged me. Trust me I looked at the game logs way before we had this conversation so I was loaded for bear when Avi critics showed up in the midst of an incredible hot streak like no one currently on the Sox can do when combining high batting average and just tattooing the ball all over the park with HR's to left , left center, center  and right center, a triple high off the wall,  a couple doubles ,

You have to admit that, yea, we have seen Avi get hot before, but never with this many HR's in such a short period of time. I just wanted to enjoy it and maybe should 've stayed out of the game thread .

Avi was sucking to start the season. Honestly, I think the season could have snowballed on him if he didn't get hurt. The 8 week injury may have been the best thing for him, as it allowed him to reset like it was Opening Day again. 

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I just don't get the Avi hate either.   The idea that he is fools gold...that we've seen the good but he always returns to the bad??  Here are his first half second half splits basically for his Sox career...doesn't that look like a young player getting better??   Also if you excuse his April as playing while injured...he is above 1.000 OPS this year. He JUST turned 27...his defense seems to be getting better...why is this not a guy you build around?   

  OPS
2015 0.698
2015 0.650
2016 0.633
2016 0.783
2017 0.850
2017 0.933
2018 0.830
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2 hours ago, greg775 said:

I can't believe there are fans out there who don't care about intangibles in sports at all. Avi and Abreu are good examples for all the Spanish speaking ballplayers as well as the English speaking ballplayers. My feeling is some of you actually think we can win a pennant without any veterans. I guess some of you might want a veteran starter and think that's enough. My feeling is also you want to win WS titles with payrolls of about 70 million total. Why you guys feel this way amazes me. I could give a damn about Jerry Reinsdorf's wallet. I hope he pays money for ballplayers until it hurts. He doesn't care about my wallet; why should I care about his?

Didn't Avi sleep with a teammates wife? (prince fielder)

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11 minutes ago, Hot FiRe said:

Didn't Avi sleep with a teammates wife? (prince fielder)

Yes, and there's a rumor that Miguel Cabrera aggravated an injury trying to break up the ensuing clubhouse scuffle between Avi and Fielder. 

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14 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Avi was sucking to start the season. Honestly, I think the season could have snowballed on him if he didn't get hurt. The 8 week injury may have been the best thing for him, as it allowed him to reset like it was Opening Day again. 

Actually it was just 8 games he sucked from 4/9 through 4/21. The 1st 8 games from opening day to 4/8 he was 12 for 35 with 3 doubles and a HR. He had 2 other games right before he got injured where he was 3/6 no xbh. so in10 games he was 15/41 or .366 and in the 8 others he was 2 for 32 or .063. SO 10 games, hot 10 games, incredibly cold 8 .Again too small of a sample size but now the hot games are starting to lap the bad games . Again I will mention the no walks and yes that is critical especially when you are struggling you have to get some. SSS size theater really either way hot or cold .

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3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Actually it was just 8 games he sucked from 4/9 through 4/21. The 1st 8 games from opening day to 4/8 he was 12 for 35 with 3 doubles and a HR. He had 2 other games right before he got injured where he was 3/6 no xbh. so in10 games he was 15/41 or .366 and in the 8 others he was 2 for 32 or .063. SO 10 games, hot 10 games, incredibly cold 8 .Again too small of a sample size but now the hot games are starting to lap the bad games . Again I will mention the no walks and yes that is critical especially when you are struggling you have to get some. SSS size theater really either way hot or cold .

I guess we'd have to wait until mid-late August before we know what he is this year. 

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29 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

 

 

 

I just don't get the Avi hate either.   The idea that he is fools gold...that we've seen the good but he always returns to the bad??  Here are his first half second half splits basically for his Sox career...doesn't that look like a young player getting better??   Also if you excuse his April as playing while injured...he is above 1.000 OPS this year. He JUST turned 27...his defense seems to be getting better...why is this not a guy you build around?   

  OPS
2015 0.698
2015 0.650
2016 0.633
2016 0.783
2017 0.850
2017 0.933
2018 0.830

Oh I get it. People can use stats every which way they want like you did. When there's ton of stats out there you can always find something . Before he lost all the weight last year  he was pretty much a young overly heavy guy who didn't take walks and while heavy and muscular he didnt show much in game power nor any plate discipline . Throw in the extra weight hurt his fielding and base running and you got a prwtty bad playerwho wasn't home grown and wasn't showing too many signs of improving.

I think people tend to overlook how much the weight lose has actually helped his overall game but  not his plate discipline which everyone is quick to point out.And that's fair because it's hard to be a good hitter when you can't learn to recognize pitches. He was always a line drive hitter but when you are not getting on base much you better hit some HR's or a ton of doubles especially when you play a lousy right field to boot. I just believe he has so much talent that he's just realizing how much time and effort and being in peak physical shape matters. I love that they can't shift on him much.It's just that darn plate discipline thats really holding him back from being a superstar instead of an enigma.

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1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Oh I get it. People can use stats every which way they want like you did. When there's ton of stats out there you can always find something ...

I was agreeing with you...and using stats in a reasonable way by looking at OPS every half season to eliminate SSS and they showed Avi was not just up and down but in fact seems to be growing as a hitter.  As for the low walk rate...Kirby Puckett, Andre Dawson, Ivan Rodriquez, Orlando Cepeda....it makes it harder to be a hall of famer without walking much but there are examples.  

 

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7 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Not taking it too personal just a wee bit. And we basically agree there's no reason to sign him long term . But you did start off by saying he sucked earlier in the season like it was some proof that he had reverted back to his 1st few seasons when it was an incredibly small sample size .

Maybe I do sound like it's personal but in my mind there's an over reliance on stats and not enough on what goes on between the white lines. Every positive gets spun negatively  every negative in the case of prospects gets spun positively and you guys are considered the smart ones while the rest of us are whiners. I don't ignore stats of course but the group dynamic comes into play way too often and I feel like i get lumped in with some of the posters some of us don't take really seriously . I don't like defensive metrics much or pitch framing stats and BABIP gets mentioned way too often.  I've been around long enough and read plenty of arguments to see that more than half of the people trying to use advanced stats have no idea how to use them. Not saying thats you.

There's a lot of concern about the 3 true outcomes in baseball and talk of banning shifts . I say learn to hit to all fields and put the ball in play if you don't like it. A walk, while a great thing is boring. Strikeouts are boring . I want to see people flying around the bases but certainly I am not against trotting around the bases either.

I'm trying to say baseball's a great game when it's played the right way and and I'm sorry if I came off like an ass. It's just hard to believe people can be so critical when there's a lot to be positive about with Avi. We are all warned constantly about SSS an to see it used for 8 games while ignoring all of last year just bugged me. Trust me I looked at the game logs way before we had this conversation so I was loaded for bear when Avi critics showed up in the midst of an incredible hot streak like no one currently on the Sox can do when combining high batting average and just tattooing the ball all over the park with HR's to left , left center, center  and right center, a triple high off the wall,  a couple doubles ,

You have to admit that, yea, we have seen Avi get hot before, but never with this many HR's in such a short period of time. I just wanted to enjoy it and maybe should 've stayed out of the game thread .

We should all enjoy it.  I hope he’s finally learned to elevate because that what needs to happen for him to become a great hitter.  I just think the “let’s extend him” posts based on a few games are absurd.  We still don’t know what he is and the complete lack of walks (before tonight) in about 20% of season is a huge red flag IMO.  But hey, we control him for another 1 1/2 years if the power finally comes for good then I’m open to signing him to a long-term deal.

And BTW, I am not a sabermetric guy because I reference statistics.  I strongly endorse scouting & qualitative factors in all my analysis.  I just happen to feel pretty strongly based on the huge data set that is baseball history that a .396 BABIP isn’t sustainable.  And look, Avi at a respectable .330 BABIP as we speak.  That is not finding a negative in a positive as you put it, it’s trying to be objective when we considering making a significant long-term investment.

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I suppose they will not keep Avi as it would result in a significant investment. That means he will be available in the off-season. I think he is closer to a stud than a dud. 

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I would keep Avi before I'd keep Abreu.
Bad in the clubhouse is a problem, but keeping players because they are "good in the clubhouse" is for the birds, especially on a team like this.
Avi hasn't caused any problems in Chicago.

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7 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

If Avi turns out to be a good player, he would end up being exhibit A for patience with whomever gets called to Chicago from the minors. 

See, I hate this idea.

With Avi, we as fans and all of his team mates had to suffer through 2 1/2 seasons of him sucking out loud at baseball. Now, 5 years into his tenure as a  White Sox player/prospect, we STILL don't know for sure if he's a good player or not.

I have to believe that there's a better way to "coach up" the top prospects in this org. You see other orgs keep the #1 prospect in all of baseball in AAA all year, & when he comes up, Kris Bryant kicks ass & takes names, RIGHT AWAY.

When was the last time this org gave a top prospect an entire year in AAA to iron out his weaknesses? I honestly can't remember. (Moncada, Anderson, Avi, Beckham, etc... were all here after less than a full season @  Charlotte.)

Maybe Avi would have only had 1 or 1 1/2 seasons of suck, had he stayed in AAA longer. Maybe Moncada wouldn't have an embarassing line as a RHH if they didn't stupidly rush him up. 

You look around MLB, & if other teams are doing better w/their young players than we are, maybe we shouldn't stupidly rush players up. And then, maybe, just MAYBE, their adjustment period to MLB could be shorter & easier for them.

We can all be patient, & hopeful for Avi. But at the same time, we can all pile the criticism, scorn, & ridicule on this stupid front office for continuing to do stupid things.

Just a thought.

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6 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I was agreeing with you...and using stats in a reasonable way by looking at OPS every half season to eliminate SSS and they showed Avi was not just up and down but in fact seems to be growing as a hitter.  As for the low walk rate...Kirby Puckett, Andre Dawson, Ivan Rodriquez, Orlando Cepeda....it makes it harder to be a hall of famer without walking much but there are examples.  

 

I know you were and I truly appreciate the support. But the Avi debate has been going on a while so I was more focusing on the fact you said you don't get the Avi hate.  It's easy to understand was more my point . There's ammo on both sides plus his bad history outweighs his recent history and the fact he's going to get expensive soon and they just need more proof and the walk rate is very concerning to them so much so that even a massive hot streak like now  plus last year doesn't outweigh the history and the terrible walk rate.

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2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We should all enjoy it.  I hope he’s finally learned to elevate because that what needs to happen for him to become a great hitter.  I just think the “let’s extend him” posts based on a few games are absurd.  We still don’t know what he is and the complete lack of walks (before tonight) in about 20% of season is a huge red flag IMO.  But hey, we control him for another 1 1/2 years if the power finally comes for good then I’m open to signing him to a long-term deal.

And BTW, I am not a sabermetric guy because I reference statistics.  I strongly endorse scouting & qualitative factors in all my analysis.  I just happen to feel pretty strongly based on the huge data set that is baseball history that a .396 BABIP isn’t sustainable.  And look, Avi at a respectable .330 BABIP as we speak.  That is not finding a negative in a positive as you put it, it’s trying to be objective when we considering making a significant long-term investment.

Well the long term signing thing is pretty much just a certain poster and arguing with him is pointless.  Most of us are understanding that Avi still has flaws that cause major concerns. I think when you talk about upside like we do with prospects Avi's is huge but he is getting expensive soon  unlike prospects and he has to show that one season wasn't an outlier or else the money could be spent on a more statistically balanced player. Maybe I just have more faith in AVi then I do in Sox management to make the right choice of finding that player.

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