Which of the current mlb players are significant pieces of the next good team?

[soxfan49]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

He was also the 4th best defensive shortstop in MLB that year according to UZR. Tim Anderson is 13th out of 22 qualified. 

What I'll say is that his argument had nothing to do with Anderson's defense, rather his argument was no one with a low OBP should be a starter.

However, was Uribe always a top 5 defensive SS? Because some guys, you know, take time to develop.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

It really wasn't that hard to actually look.

Should I bring the torches?  I mean what an eye opening experience!  That is just crazy!

[Balta1701]

Just now, soxfan49 said:

What I'll say is that his argument had nothing to do with Anderson's defense, rather his argument was no one with a low OBP should be a starter.

However, was Uribe always a top 5 defensive SS? Because some guys, you know, take time to develop.

Basically yeah. He was a positive defender in 2002 when he had a full season with the rockies, he was an elite defender in 2004 when the White Sox used him as a utility man, and he was an elite defender in 2005 when the White Sox made him a full time SS. He was an elite defender by age 24. 

[soxfan49]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Basically yeah. He was a positive defender in 2002 when he had a full season with the rockies, he was an elite defender in 2004 when the White Sox used him as a utility man, and he was an elite defender in 2005 when the White Sox made him a full time SS. He was an elite defender by age 24. 

So again, Anderson has no chance of getting there? They should release him or make him a utility player?

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

So again, Anderson has no chance of getting there? They should release him or make him a utility player?

If people want to provide examples of guys who, after they reach the age of 25, gradually become better defenders at shortstop, I'm open to hearing them. Out of the top 10 defensive shortstops in the league, there's only 1 guy on there who started off as a poor defender and eventually got better. Almost all of them: Simmons, Iglesias, Lindor, Gregorius, Turner, Boagerts, Swanson - they all came into the league as strong defenders. Literally only 1 of the top 10 defenders this year started off as a weak defender, and that was because he never was coached on being a shortstop in the minor leagues, and that was Marcus Semien. Almost all of the shortstops in the league who are good defenders start off as good defenders and get gradually worse as their athleticism fades. 

I'd say if Anderson's going to improve, it needs to be with the bats. 

[Jose Abreu]

I don't know if you can view UZR in smaller samples but I'd guess that since early-mid May, Anderson has been a top 10 defensive shortstop by UZR.

[wrathofhahn]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If people want to provide examples of guys who, after they reach the age of 25, gradually become better defenders at shortstop, I'm open to hearing them. Out of the top 10 defensive shortstops in the league, there's only 1 guy on there who started off as a poor defender and eventually got better. Almost all of them: Simmons, Iglesias, Lindor, Gregorius, Turner, Boagerts, Swanson - they all came into the league as strong defenders. Literally only 1 of the top 10 defenders this year started off as a weak defender, and that was because he never was coached on being a shortstop in the minor leagues, and that was Marcus Semien. Almost all of the shortstops in the league who are good defenders start off as good defenders and get gradually worse as their athleticism fades. 

I'd say if Anderson's going to improve, it needs to be with the bats. 

Well the majority of Tim Anderson being a poor defender was errors. He had 28 last year 16 fielding 12 throwing. 

Errors are by definition correctable and while he'll never be a top 10 shortstop in the league defensively I don't see why he can't be average as long as he keeps the number of mistakes to a manageable number. Like in 2016 and this year.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Well the majority of Tim Anderson being a poor defender was errors. He had 28 last year 16 fielding 12 throwing. 

Errors are by definition correctable and while he'll never be a top 10 shortstop in the league defensively I don't see why he can't be average as long as he keeps the number of mistakes to a manageable number. Like in 2016 and this year.

If he's going to be an average shortstop then it would be darn helpful if he was better with the bats. I know that recently the White Sox have traded away all their average players for guys like Samarzija and Frazier and so just having guys who are average would be an upgrade, but it would be really, really nice to have an above average player at a few positions. 

[TaylorStSox]

I'd like to see Anderson continue to develop his situational hitting. To me, he can be a prototypical 2 hole hitter, but he has to develop better bat control. I think he'll end up being a plus defensive SS, with some pop and good speed. .265-.280/25 out of a good defensive SS works for me. Do metrics value situational hitting at all?

[soxfan49]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

If people want to provide examples of guys who, after they reach the age of 25, gradually become better defenders at shortstop, I'm open to hearing them. Out of the top 10 defensive shortstops in the league, there's only 1 guy on there who started off as a poor defender and eventually got better. Almost all of them: Simmons, Iglesias, Lindor, Gregorius, Turner, Boagerts, Swanson - they all came into the league as strong defenders. Literally only 1 of the top 10 defenders this year started off as a weak defender, and that was because he never was coached on being a shortstop in the minor leagues, and that was Marcus Semien. Almost all of the shortstops in the league who are good defenders start off as good defenders and get gradually worse as their athleticism fades. 

I'd say if Anderson's going to improve, it needs to be with the bats. 

Who said he has to be great? Yeah, ideally every player for this team is great defensively but I imagine that’s rare. If Anderson is good defensively (top 10-12 using your metric) and continues to hit 20+ homers and steal 30+ bases a year, I’d say he’s valuable.

[wrathofhahn]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

If he's going to be an average shortstop then it would be darn helpful if he was better with the bats. I know that recently the White Sox have traded away all their average players for guys like Samarzija and Frazier and so just having guys who are average would be an upgrade, but it would be really, really nice to have an above average player at a few positions. 

I meant average defensively. Right now he's basically replacement level with a bad bat and average defense.

As far as above average players go sure but it's hard to do that when we don't even know what we need because our young guys haven't been exposed by MLB yet. I do think we could have done a better job in the offseason bringing in guys who could play on short term deals.

We really had no reason not to particularly in the rotation and DH. I'd have liked to have move Shields to the bullpen and have Davidson/Sanchez battling for 3B

[Balta1701]

12 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

I meant average defensively. Right now he's basically replacement level with a bad bat and average defense.

As far as above average players go sure but it's hard to do that when we don't even know what we need because our young guys haven't been exposed by MLB yet. I do think we could have done a better job in the offseason bringing in guys who could play on short term deals.

We really had no reason not to particularly in the rotation and DH. I'd have liked to have move Shields to the bullpen and have Davidson/Sanchez battling for 3B

I think it's fair to say Davidson and Sanchez have both had the opportunity to compete for 3b this year and neither one of them has proved worthy of being a starter. Both have pretty well confirmed they're backups, and at least Sanchez is a plus defender at a couple middle infield spots so he's more useful. 

[Jose Abreu]

You guys are also living and dying by UZR. He's also 6th in defensive range for shortstops and 11th in overall defensive rating for shortstops, per Fangraphs. Since a lot of that it skewed by his rough start, I think he already is a top 10 defensive shortstop.

[GreenSox]

On 8/5/2018 at 5:56 AM, dominik-keul@gmx.de said:

A lot of young players are up but not many have been really good. Also a lot of good prospects are still down. Which pieces of the current mlb players do you think will be significant pieces and who will be pushed out or relegated to a bench role?

 

Anderson, Moncada, Lopez, Giolito and Fry WILL be pieces; but if they don't improve, they will be the fillers or bullpen pieces of a contending team (presuming we have a contending team).
Leury and Yolmer look like solid bench/utility players.
Narvaez and Palka may be; Narvaez has to improve his defense (and consistently hit above ops .750.);  Palka has to advance  from bust/boom status.

But none look like key pieces, at  least as of now.

Edited August 11, 2018 by GreenSox

[Timmy U]

What about Rodon?  Seems like a key piece.

[Balta1701]

9 hours ago, Timmy U said:

What about Rodon?  Seems like a key piece.

He's a free agent after 2021 and a Boras client who already has been a tough negotiation for this franchise, if he's good enough that we want him to stay then someone will probably offer him $200 million+. Will they hold onto a guy who might only be there for 1 year while the team is competitive, if that? Should they? 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

He's a free agent after 2021 and a Boras client who already has been a tough negotiation for this franchise, if he's good enough that we want him to stay then someone will probably offer him $200 million+. Will they hold onto a guy who might only be there for 1 year while the team is competitive, if that? Should they? 

Realistically?  Probably not.  If someone offers a Quintana package we should probably take it.  The problem is there aren’t a ton of contenders with systems deep enough to acquire someone like Rodon.  The Padres could make some hella interesting offers.  The Yankees & Braves could probably pull it off too.  Who else after that makes sense?  The A’s would have the chips, but would they be willing to commit multiple cost-controlled assets into three years of Rodon?  The other problem is the Mets have a couple arms that will likely be on the market and both have better track records of being TOR starters.

[Timmy U]

I just don't understand this desire to trade Rodon.  The Sox have literally no one tied up long term.  If they could throw the Shields money directly into the sewer, then they can afford to be the ones who give Rodon $200 million.  Are we supposed to rebuild forever?  Plus, we still have 3 years of control on a guy entering his prime.  I guess listen to offers, but unless it's one of the best prospects in all of baseball, I'm against it.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

I just don't understand this desire to trade Rodon.  The Sox have literally no one tied up long term.  If they could throw the Shields money directly into the sewer, then they can afford to be the ones who give Rodon $200 million.  Are we supposed to rebuild forever?  Plus, we still have 3 years of control on a guy entering his prime.  I guess listen to offers, but unless it's one of the best prospects in all of baseball, I'm against it.

We certainly shouldn’t trade him just to trade him, but you have to listen and be willing to pull the trigger if someone is willing to make a Quintana type offer.  Paying him $200M is an incredibly risky proposition for someone with his track record of health.  I’m all for offering him an extension this offseason that buys out a year or two of free agency, but that’s simply not likely with Boras as his agent.  So the reality quickly becomes losing him for nothing right when our competitive window is opening or trade him for a haul now.  

The best course of action is to probably wait and see what happens with the whale free agents and react accordingly.  If we can somehow land Machado, then that speeds up the rebuild timeline enough to keep Rodon. If not, test the waters and see anyone is willing to pay a haul for Carlos.  If we trade Rodon this offseason, we can always use the prospect capital acquired to land a controllable starter in a year or two when the rest of the pieces are in place.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Chicago White Sox

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We certainly shouldn’t trade him just to trade him, but you have to listen and be willing to pull the trigger if someone is willing to make a Quintana type offer.  Paying him $200M is an incredibly risky proposition for someone with his track record of health.  I’m all for offering him an extension this offseason that buys out a year or two of free agency, but that’s simply not likely with Boras as his agent.  So the reality quickly becomes losing him for nothing right when our competitive window is opening or trade him for a haul now.  

The best course of action is to probably wait and see what happens with the whale free agents and react accordingly.  If we can somehow land Machado, then that speeds up the rebuild timeline enough to keep Rodon. If not, test the waters and see anyone is willing to pay a haul for Carlos.  If we trade Rodon this offseason, we can always use the prospect capital acquired to land a controllable starter in a year or two when the rest of the pieces are in place.

+infinity. 

Excellent post. 

[iWiN4PreP]

On 8/10/2018 at 2:06 PM, Jack Parkman said:

I don't like starting guys who get on base at less than a .300-.310 clip. This is just one man's opinion, but the amount of outs he makes saps a lot of his value in other areas away. Doesn't mean he can't be a super sub or something like that, playing SS/2B/OF. But in my book, he's best used as a super sub playing roughly 100-120 games. 

I agree with this line of thinking. I used to think Anderson could turn it around and be a huge piece for us, especially given his amazing start to the season and high counting stats (HR/SB), but now with his months long struggles we are seeing the real Timmy again. An OBP below .290 is just god awful. 

 

Cool player with lots of spirit, but we will likely need to find a better SS and he's not part of the core here. Super sub? Ok, that works well.