White Sox vs Yankees 8.6 game thread

[fathom]

1 minute ago, SoxAce said:

Said it before, Moncada has the higher ceiling but I'd bet the bank Eloy has the better career. 

Yet Yoan should easily have the higher WAR.  Agree with you though, Eloy has the bat skills that are just special.

[Sticky Stuff]

22 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

Why is this something that should be acknowledged? 

 

 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, fathom said:

Yet Yoan should easily have the higher WAR.  Agree with you though, Eloy has the bat skills that are just special.

People should remember, Avi was hitting .380 in Charlotte when he got called up. Avi also struggled badly for 3 seasons before he figured it out. Nobody knows anything about anyone until they get to the major leagues. The minors mean nothing other than for making prospect lists. They weed out the ones who really can't cut it. Failing miserably at the MLB level weeds out the rest. This season has taught me a lot, and that is to not even get excited about anyone until they prove it in the Bigs. You just don't know. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[scs787]

It's kinda weird to say it, considering he is near the top in strikeouts, but Moncada just needs to be more aggressive. I'm not so sure that's really that difficult of an adjustment to make. 

 

I would tell him that unless it's clearly a ball I want you hacking. If you can get to it, swing at it. 

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, scs787 said:

It's kinda weird to say it, considering he is near the top in strikeouts, but Moncada just needs to be more aggressive. I'm not so sure that's really that difficult of an adjustment to make. 

 

I would tell him that unless it's clearly a ball I want you hacking. If you can get to it, swing at it. 

You can't do that. It will only make things worse. That will get him to start chasing low breaking balls more often. 

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

People should remember, Avi was hitting .380 in Charlotte when he got called up. Avi also struggled badly for 3 seasons before he figured it out. Nobody knows anything about anyone until they get to the major leagues. The minors mean nothing other than for making prospect lists. They weed out the ones who really can't cut it. Failing miserably at the MLB level weeds out the rest. This season has taught me a lot, and that is to not even get excited about anyone until they prove it in the Bigs. You just don't know. 

Avi was a good prospect, but not some phenom.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

People should remember, Avi was hitting .380 in Charlotte when he got called up. Avi also struggled badly for 3 seasons before he figured it out. Nobody knows anything about anyone until they get to the major leagues. The minors mean nothing other than for making prospect lists. 

Yep. minors and former prospect rankings mean dittly squat for Moncada now. Torres from the yanks is close to passing Moncada in career WAR and Moncada has played 90 more games! There is a ton of young talent in mlb and very little of it is on the South Side unfortunately. 

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

Avi was a good prospect, but not some phenom.

I don't think Eloy is as good as people think he is. People want to put him in the Hall already. I hate that. I think he probably will average .280/.330/.820  in his prime years with 25-35 HR and 80-110 RBI. When I gush about Moncada, I'm talking about his talent level, not any actual performance. His performance is nowhere near his potential currently. I still have hope Moncada will figure it out, but evidence is mounting to the contrary. The fact that it has gone so far south on him this late in the season is a bad sign. He might have too many holes to overcome. There might be too many ways for pitchers to get him out. He's not even making loud outs anymore. It's all weak contact and Ks. which is really scary. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Sleepy Harold]

9 minutes ago, DH in the NL said:

Why is this something that should be acknowledged? 

 

 

Because it's an odd and quirky Sox fact.  

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, DH in the NL said:

Why is this something that should be acknowledged? 

 

 

This is such an odd thing to be worked up about it.

[Sticky Stuff]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

This is such an odd thing to be worked up about it.

Reporting how many times a position player has pitched in a season is news? Guess I’ve been watching the wrong thing when I watch a Sox game. I should be more interested in how many times Davidson is going to pitch the rest of the way. He’s obviously going to have many more opportunities to pitch on this shitty team. Can’t wait. 

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, DH in the NL said:

Reporting how many times a position player has pitched in a season is news? Guess I’ve been watching the wrong thing when I watch a Sox game. I should be more interested in how many times Davidson is going to pitch the rest of the way. He’s obviously going to have many more opportunities to pitch on this shitty team. Can’t wait. 

It's been probably most entertaining storyline this entire dreadful season

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

It's been probably most entertaining storyline this entire dreadful season

Dreadful is the proper way to describe this season. Very few positives to take from this season. I don't know how you can say the contention target hasn't been pushed back at least a season or two. I've been trying to stay as positive as I can this season, being as patient as I can, but honestly you can't say that there is one player on the MLB roster that will be part of the next Sox playoff team. Not one. I'm letting my negative side out tonight. I'm disappointed. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[footlongcomiskeydog]

13 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Dreadful is the proper way to describe this season. Very few positives to take from this season. I don't know how you can say the contention target hasn't been pushed back at least a season or two. I've been trying to stay as positive as I can this season, being as patient as I can, but honestly you can't say that there is one player on the MLB roster that will be part of the next Sox playoff team. Not one. I'm letting my negative side out tonight. I'm disappointed. 

Seriously?

Moncada, Anderson, Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Fry. That is 6 right there. 

[Jack Parkman]

54 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Seriously?

Moncada, Anderson, Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Fry. That is 6 right there. 

You can't say any of them for sure. Rodon might be gone or traded, Moncada, Giolito and Lopez have been wildly inconsistent. Anderson is meh. Fry is a reliever, so you don't know about them from year to year. Not one player is a lock. I was hoping to find one player that would be a lock. It would have had to be one of Moncada, Anderson, Lopez and Giolito. All of them have more questions about their ability to stick in the majors than answers. 

All I was asking out of the 2018 season is to have one lock for the 2021 (or whenever) contending roster. That low bar wasn't even reached. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[footlongcomiskeydog]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

You can't say any of them for sure. Rodon might be gone or traded, Moncada, Giolito and Lopez have been wildly inconsistent. Anderson is meh. Fry is a reliever, so you don't know about them from year to year. Not one player is a lock. I was hoping to find one player that would be a lock. It would have had to be one of Moncada, Anderson, Lopez and Giolito. All of them have more questions about their ability to stick in the majors than answers. 

Then this rebuild is already a massive failure and the future is just as bleak as the last 10 years have been. 

[Jack Parkman]

19 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Then this rebuild is already a massive failure and the future is just as bleak as the last 10 years have been. 

No, it isn't. Most of the talent is still a season or two away. I was telling everyone that unless the first wave was a big hit(meaning 3 of those players mentioned in the previous post were locks by the end of 2019)  the majority of the talent the Sox have won't even have their first full season in the majors until 2020. 2020 is and was an unrealistic goal, and 2021 or 2022 is more likely. If they only get one or two, then 2021 is possible. If they get zero then you're pushing it to 2022-23. As much as we'd like Machado, it makes zero sense for the Sox to spend money this offseason. They have to get a solid nucleus first. I'm not comfortable with anyone at the MLB level. 

I look at the waves as the following, with the years of their first full season in parentheses

Wave 1: Moncada, Lopez, Giolito (2017-18)

Wave 2: Jimenez, Kopech,  (2019)  Collins, Basabe, Cease (2019-20)

Wave 3: Hansen, Dunning,  Madrigal  Robert, Rutherford (and others such as Gonzalez, Walker, Burger(hopefully) and many more) (2020)

And the point is that most of the Sox talent that they have accumulated won't be here until mid 2019 and later. Unless the 1st wave all hits spectacularly 2020 is not a realistic goal for contention. 2021 or 2022 is much more likely. They're still 3-4 seasons away. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

41 minutes ago, DH in the NL said:

Reporting how many times a position player has pitched in a season is news? Guess I’ve been watching the wrong thing when I watch a Sox game. I should be more interested in how many times Davidson is going to pitch the rest of the way. He’s obviously going to have many more opportunities to pitch on this shitty team. Can’t wait. 

In a season where it has happened over 50 times for the 1st time in baseball history? Yes, it is news.

[soxfan49]

16 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

No, it isn't. Most of the talent is still a season or two away. 

But you just said Eloy isn’t that good, so Moncada, Fry, Rodon, Giolito and Anderson will be average and Eloy will be slightly better than Abreu.

What other talent is going to make this rebuild great then?

[Jack Parkman]

48 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

But you just said Eloy isn’t that good, so Moncada, Fry, Rodon, Giolito and Anderson will be average and Eloy will be slightly better than Abreu.

What other talent is going to make this rebuild great then?

Honestly I think Abreu is a good comp for his floor. Eloy still has star potential, but I think it is just as unlikely that Eloy is Manny Ramirez as it is that Moncada is Mike Trout.  However, the thing that makes a great team isn't only star power, but a lot of really good players and very few holes. That is what they are going for. Their pitching prospects have a higher ceiling as a group than their hitters. Out of all of their hitters, Moncada,  Jimenez, and Robert are the only ones with star potential, unless some surprise. The White Sox have almost never been that lucky to get a surprise superstar from a  B to C+ prospect. 

They have 4 potential ace-quality starters(I don't count Rodon because I don't think he'll be here when they're contending)  in Kopech, Cease, Giolito, and Hansen, with a  couple more with the upside of a #2-3(Lopez and Dunning,) Most of their high quality chips are in pitching. They have a ton of other players that should be average to above average MLB players, such as Madrgal, Rutherford, and others. They're more likely to contend with a dominant rotation than they are with a great offense unless both Moncada and Jimenez/Robert hit. Moncada and either Eloy or Robert MUST be superstars for this thing to have the greatest chance of success. Otherwise, they put all of the pressure on Kopech and Cease to both be ace quality pitchers, at the very least. They probably need one more as well. All being said, without Moncada this all falls apart very quickly. They are basically starting from scratch right now, and they have nothing to build around yet. Moncada and Jimenez are both incredibly important, and if either fails that failure puts incredible pressure on Robert. Without Moncada, they're going to have to add an IF superstar that reaches FA in order to get them from fringe WC contender to surefire playoff team. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Chisoxfn]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

He does. That doesn't change the fact that he's been bad this year. If he puts it all together, he has the chance to break baseball similar to Trout, but the guy has to put the bat on the ball, which he's been able to do everywhere but MLB. It is baffling to me what is happening to him. I really don't know what they can do if he continues to put up 0-4 with 3K four nights of the week. It wasn't this bad until late July. Like  I said earlier, before the ASB, he was up and down to the point that you thought a eureka moment was just around the corner. Now it has gone completely south on him. 

The random Trout comparisons (re: Moncada) have to stop. Trout is quite possibly the best position player to ever play the game (or at least is in that debate thus far in his career).  Odds of Moncada being better or equivalent to Trout are probably as good as odds of me winning the powerball (slim to none).  The reality is Moncada has upside and could emerge to be an elite player but he has a long ways to go. I'm not going to get worked up over game-to-game splits, but in general, I'd say 2018 has been a pretty big dissapointment thus far for Yoan. That said, he has flashed streaks that show his potential but far too often he has shown the rawness we saw in the minors (and which should have been every hint any of us needed that it would take time for him to adjust (and if he couldn't adjust...he had real flaws that could severely hinder his ability to reach his potential).  

The major bright side for Yoan is that by and large he's gotten a lot of at bats and while I'm hoping he finishes the season strong...he should have enough experience now to be able to work on some things in the off-season and take major steps forward in 2019.  Development is not always linear and we should remember that when we talk the "service time" game with Kopech / Jimenez....we can't just hold them back and think it means we get an extra "year" of greatness...more likely reality is we are just pushing out a "year" of growing pains and natural development those players need.  If we intend to contend in 2020, it would be nice to give those guys 1.5 (or a little less than 1.5 years) years to get their feet wet before that season (especially since next year other new guys would be coming up in need of development time).  

[Chisoxfn]

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Cause he still has incredible physical tools

Yep; Yoan had such a high ranking because of his "FV".  I am curious if at some point the Sox will be able to work out an extension for him (probably hard to do since Yoan already got paid).  I think Yoan is a critical part to the rebuild...if he becomes a star, I'll feel better about everything...I still think he ends up being a very good player and I think he'll be the type of guy who once the switch "flips"...he'll just start crushing it.  I actually think at some point his K-rate is going to drop significantly (don't ask me why...I just think he has too good of overall tools (quick hands and great eye) that he can't possibly strike out at this clip his whole career (and no I have zero stats to back that up).  

[Jack Parkman]

49 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

The random Trout comparisons (re: Moncada) have to stop. Trout is quite possibly the best position player to ever play the game (or at least is in that debate thus far in his career).  Odds of Moncada being better or equivalent to Trout are probably as good as odds of me winning the powerball (slim to none).  The reality is Moncada has upside and could emerge to be an elite player but he has a long ways to go. I'm not going to get worked up over game-to-game splits, but in general, I'd say 2018 has been a pretty big dissapointment thus far for Yoan. That said, he has flashed streaks that show his potential but far too often he has shown the rawness we saw in the minors (and which should have been every hint any of us needed that it would take time for him to adjust (and if he couldn't adjust...he had real flaws that could severely hinder his ability to reach his potential).  

The major bright side for Yoan is that by and large he's gotten a lot of at bats and while I'm hoping he finishes the season strong...he should have enough experience now to be able to work on some things in the off-season and take major steps forward in 2019.  Development is not always linear and we should remember that when we talk the "service time" game with Kopech / Jimenez....we can't just hold them back and think it means we get an extra "year" of greatness...more likely reality is we are just pushing out a "year" of growing pains and natural development those players need.  If we intend to contend in 2020, it would be nice to give those guys 1.5 (or a little less than 1.5 years) years to get their feet wet before that season (especially since next year other new guys would be coming up in need of development time).  

Eh, I disagree about the Trout comparisons. The reality is that there is no other good comparison for his potential other than Trout. He has all of the tools that Trout does, the difference is that Trout has done it consistently at the MLB level. The other comparison I'd use is Cano(on the juice) with 35+ SB potential. I fail to find  a better comparison to Moncada's ceiling other than Trout because Moncada has incredibly rare physical talent, The kind only the best of the best in baseball history have had.  The Trout stuff is if he reaches his ceiling. I have consistently said "a notch below Trout" is Moncada's ceiling mostly because he's never going to hit .340 like Trout has.(I could see Moncada in the .310-320 range for a season or two if he puts it all together)  In all other aspects of the game, his potential is right there. If You asked me if there was a player other than Trout that you would bet to be the next 40-40 player I'd pick Moncada. He's that talented.  I don't think there is a player in baseball who has that potential other than Trout and Moncada. There is only a handful of players that I could name off the top of my head that have/had the physical gifts that Moncada has. You wouldn't want me to name them, because the comparison would seem so ridiculous, but I will anyway: When it comes to tools, Moncada is up there with the following: Trout, Mantle, Mays, Ken Griffey Jr, Bonds(off the juice)  I'm not kidding and it isn't crazy either. What is crazy is saying that we know if he'll reach that level of performance.  He may not, but he is that talented. 

Moncada is also extremely raw for a 23 year old at the MLB level.  I think there is a 5-10% chance that Moncada reaches his ceiling, which is way more than the odds of you winning the powerball. There is also a >40% chance that he's a 4-6 WAR guy each year, given that he's already put up a 2.5 WAR in 160 games with the White Sox.  Moncada's ceiling is the best all around 2B to ever play baseball if he sticks there. How well the Sox coaching staff can tap into his talent is what will determine how good he gets. What makes Moncada so polarizing is that he oozes physical talent, the likes that have only been seen before in the best of the best baseball players of all time, but it is so incredibly unrefined for a player at his age and level. I don't think any of this is ridiculous or hyperbole. Moncada, if he reaches his ceiling, absolutely has a chance to be the starter at 2B in the "all time starting 9", and one of the 10 best position players to ever play the game. If it all goes south on him, he has the chance to be quite possibly the biggest bust in MLB history as well. It goes both ways. Because of the country Moncada came from, his variance on career outcomes is much higher than the players I listed earlier. If you don't think I acknowledge that, you haven't been listening. He got decent instruction later than most players. It seems that in Cuba they just let them go play baseball and let the talent take over. There seems to be very little, if any formal instruction on fundamentals. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

It is what he didn’t say. He had kind of slammed him before, when Jason was going over his recent stretch, Stone was silent.

If Stone is down on Kopech you have to figure it's because of the semi celebrity status he has with the high profile girlfriends. If you are going to be a gifted pitcher then be a celebrity for that and not a celeb because you have semi famous gf's and are a King in the Twitterverse.

[southsider2k5]

8 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

If Stone is down on Kopech you have to figure it's because of the semi celebrity status he has with the high profile girlfriends. If you are going to be a gifted pitcher then be a celebrity for that and not a celeb because you have semi famous gf's and are a King in the Twitterverse.

The same Steve Stone who was on the cover of Playgirl?  That had better not be why he has an attitude towards Kopech.