southsider2k5 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, ptatc said: The only youngsters that will be in The MLB are Jimenez and Kopech. Most of the prospects will be developing in 2020. The true competitive team won't be here until 2021. Which is exactly why I laid out about when specific prospects should be getting here. I feel like any set of expectations that doesn't include the timelines of who is going to be here isn't really very valid. If you expectation is playoffs in 2020, wouldn't you expect the bulk of your rebuild to be here? It is like betting on an internet company to triple in price without their being any products in the pipeline during that time. I don't get the idea of setting arbitrary deadlines that don't correspond to anything in reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 48 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: They *may* be interested in Avi. But you sure as shit aren't getting Welker for 1 year of avi. I would say Avi is worth a 100-150 prospect. And the Rockies have plenty of guys who can play 3b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrlesque Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 In general, I'm not really in favor of a low level prospect for prospect trade. There are too many unknowns that make it unsettling, and that's probably why it pretty much never happens (minus change of scenery types, which I'd be in favor of). To me, the whole point of having prospect depth at a single position is that you don't know which ones will pan out and which ones won't. You undermine that advantage by trading one away. What if the one you trade turns out to be a major leaguer and the ones you kept don't? Sure, there's high reward if the guy you trade busts, but it's super risky and, unless you have a inkling you are selling high on a prospect, I'd rather wait. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said: Which is exactly why I laid out about when specific prospects should be getting here. I feel like any set of expectations that doesn't include the timelines of who is going to be here isn't really very valid. If you expectation is playoffs in 2020, wouldn't you expect the bulk of your rebuild to be here? It is like betting on an internet company to triple in price without their being any products in the pipeline during that time. I don't get the idea of setting arbitrary deadlines that don't correspond to anything in reality. In the trades, the White Sox acquired 5 guys who were in the top 25-ish of prospect lists. Every one of those guys should be up by April 15 of 2019. If that's not the bulk of the rebuild then we did something systematically wrong with the guys we acquired. By April 15 of 2020 you're going to add Cease and possibly the catchers to that. The only top 25-ish talents in our org who won't be up by then are Robert and Madrigral - our 2018 draft pick. If that amount of talent isn't making a dent in 2020, then we ought to at least be extremely concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: In the trades, the White Sox acquired 5 guys who were in the top 25-ish of prospect lists. Every one of those guys should be up by April 15 of 2019. If that's not the bulk of the rebuild then we did something systematically wrong with the guys we acquired. By April 15 of 2020 you're going to add Cease and possibly the catchers to that. The only top 25-ish talents in our org who won't be up by then are Robert and Madrigral - our 2018 draft pick. If that amount of talent isn't making a dent in 2020, then we ought to at least be extremely concerned. Outline your expectations for players for me, because I am not seeing it. I still see a lot of holes in the starting line up, especially if we haven't realigned our prospect list to cover our holes better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 1 hour ago, yesterday333 said: I would say Avi is worth a 100-150 prospect. And the Rockies have plenty of guys who can play 3b. Avi and Abreu are great fits for the Rockies next year assuming they plan to make another run at the playoffs. Slide Desmond back to the LF to replace Parra, move Abreu to 1b, replace Gonzo with Avi in RF. Abreu and Avi’s combined 2019 salary will be a relatively small increase from what they are paying Parra and Gonzo this year. Abreu and Avi should return Welker++ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: Which is exactly why I laid out about when specific prospects should be getting here. I feel like any set of expectations that doesn't include the timelines of who is going to be here isn't really very valid. If you expectation is playoffs in 2020, wouldn't you expect the bulk of your rebuild to be here? It is like betting on an internet company to triple in price without their being any products in the pipeline during that time. I don't get the idea of setting arbitrary deadlines that don't correspond to anything in reality. The Sox better be going after it in 2020. That will be year 4 of the rebuild. Same year that the Cubs started their playoff run. Sox should be able to do the same. Competing in 2020 will require JR to open the checkbook but if you wanna be a big boy club in today's MLB you gotta be willing to spend. 1B/ Zach Collins 2B Yoan Moncada SS Tim Anderson 3B Nolan Arenado LF Eloy Jimenez CF Luis Robert RF Luis Gonzalez C JT Realmeto DH Palka/Davidson until Adolfo is ready. SP1=Patrick Corbin SP2=Carlos Rodon SP3=Michael Kopech SP4=Reynaldo Lopez SP5=Dane Dunning/Giolito/Stephens/Adams Bullpen will be some mix of Burdi, Hamilton, Fry, Flores, Burr, Medrios, and a FA signing. Yolmer as utility guy Zavala back up catcher Sox trade Madrigal, Cease, and Hansen for JT Realmeto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said: The Sox better be going after it in 2020. That will be year 4 of the rebuild. Same year that the Cubs started their playoff run. Sox should be able to do the same. Competing in 2020 will require JR to open the checkbook but if you wanna be a big boy club in today's MLB you gotta be willing to spend. 1B/ Zach Collins 2B Yoan Moncada SS Tim Anderson 3B Nolan Arenado LF Eloy Jimenez CF Luis Robert RF Luis Gonzalez C JT Realmeto DH Palka/Davidson until Adolfo is ready. SP1=Patrick Corbin SP2=Carlos Rodon SP3=Michael Kopech SP4=Reynaldo Lopez SP5=Dane Dunning/Giolito/Stephens/Adams Bullpen will be some mix of Burdi, Hamilton, Fry, Flores, Burr, Medrios, and a FA signing. Yolmer as utility guy Zavala back up catcher Sox trade Madrigal, Cease, and Hansen for JT Realmeto. You expect a team with 3 position player rookies starting to make the playoffs? Again, not really seeing that as realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: You expect a team with 3 position player rookies starting to make the playoffs? Again, not really seeing that as realistic. The Yanks are running two position player rookies out there right now. Atlanta has acuna, Albies, and Camargo in their starting lineup. Collins was drafted as an advanced college bat in 2016. He should be ready to go by 2020 especially if he is moved off catcher. Luis Robert was signed in the Summer of 2017. He will be 23 in 2020. Kids like Soto and Acuna are up now producing at age 19 and 20. I would expect Robert could do the same. Gonzalez is another college bat drafted in 2017 that should be ready by 2020. Edited August 10, 2018 by footlongcomiskeydog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 minute ago, footlongcomiskeydog said: The Yanks are running two position player rookies out there right now. Atlanta has acuna, Albies, and Camargo in their starting lineup. Neither of which is 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: You expect a team with 3 position player rookies starting to make the playoffs? Again, not really seeing that as realistic. 2015 Chicago Cubs, literally the team he used, rookie starters 3b: Kris Bryant SS: Addison Russel RF: Jorge Soler/Kyle Schwarber (600 PAs between them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: 2015 Chicago Cubs, literally the team he used, rookie starters 3b: Kris Bryant SS: Addison Russel RF: Jorge Soler/Kyle Schwarber (600 PAs between them) Have we gotten the Cubs checkbook? Awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Have we gotten the Cubs checkbook? Awesome! You asked people to provide examples man. Look around baseball. There are young kids producing all over the place. Some of these young kids from the Sox need to hit the ground running. I guess that is the nice thing about rebuilding though. Everything can always just be pushed out a year due to the idea that not all development is linear. Edited August 10, 2018 by footlongcomiskeydog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I'd also point out that Gonzalez and Robert are currently in A ball in August 2018, and you penciling them in as playoff starters in 2020. Did people learn nothing from 2017 and 2018? Honestly I wonder if part of the reason people are so angry is their expectations are ridiculous. What you are looking at here is a 100% best case scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said: The Sox better be going after it in 2020. That will be year 4 of the rebuild. Same year that the Cubs started their playoff run. Sox should be able to do the same. Competing in 2020 will require JR to open the checkbook but if you wanna be a big boy club in today's MLB you gotta be willing to spend. 1B/ Zach Collins 2B Yoan Moncada SS Tim Anderson 3B Nolan Arenado LF Eloy Jimenez CF Luis Robert RF Luis Gonzalez C JT Realmeto DH Palka/Davidson until Adolfo is ready. SP1=Patrick Corbin SP2=Carlos Rodon SP3=Michael Kopech SP4=Reynaldo Lopez SP5=Dane Dunning/Giolito/Stephens/Adams Bullpen will be some mix of Burdi, Hamilton, Fry, Flores, Burr, Medrios, and a FA signing. Yolmer as utility guy Zavala back up catcher Sox trade Madrigal, Cease, and Hansen for JT Realmeto. The bolded is a fireable offense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I would not focus on a 3rd baseman as I believe we have internal options, including Burger, Moncada and who knows...maybe Bush can be fast tracked. I would be focused on a catcher who can nurture and grow with our young pitchers. Specifically, I like Will Smith on Dodgers (#2 catcher and #3 prospect in their system). Said to be a defensive gem who can also play 3rd. Maybe we can convince them to toss in Gavin Lux, a 50FV SS who hits from left side. Rodon and ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I'd also point out that Gonzalez and Robert are currently in A ball in August 2018, and you penciling them in as playoff starters in 2020. Did people learn nothing from 2017 and 2018? Honestly I wonder if part of the reason people are so angry is their expectations are ridiculous. What you are looking at here is a 100% best case scenario. I find it hilarious that you just hand wave away the Cubs example of a team making the playoffs with 3 rookie starters. Do you live in an alternate reality where that didn't happen? People have been comparing the Sox rebuild to the Cubs for months now. Why are we all of sudden saying that it isn't realistic for this team to be competing for the playoffs in 2020? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said: I find it hilarious that you just hand wave away the Cubs example of a team making the playoffs with 3 rookie starters. Do you live in an alternate reality where that didn't happen? People have been comparing the Sox rebuild to the Cubs for months now. Why are we all of sudden saying that it isn't realistic for this team to be competing for the playoffs in 2020? Because the White Sox won't spend like the Cubs. We don't have their revenue streams, and we don't have their fanbase. If we start getting 40,000 to the park every night before we start winning, I will reevaluate that line of thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Because the White Sox won't spend like the Cubs. We don't have their revenue streams, and we don't have their fanbase. If we start getting 40,000 to the park every night before we start winning, I will reevaluate that line of thought. This rebuild is doomed if you think the Sox can field a competitive team solely from the farm. That is 100% not realistic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Just now, footlongcomiskeydog said: This rebuild is doomed if you think the Sox can field a competitive team solely from the farm. That is 100% not realistic! To add to the list, I am also extremely skeptical that a team which can't develop position players will suddenly start pumping out a playoff team's worth of position players. But that is why the idea of a rebuild seemed like an insane proposition to me in the first place, and I can't see putting an aggressive timeline on it being a reasonable idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 7 hours ago, Balta1701 said: I do not object to prospect for prospect deals, but they should be much more change of scenery type deals - Carson Fulmer comes to mind as an ideal candidate. As of right now if any of the OFs you just named are starting OFs for the White Sox in 2020 that means they developed hugely. You really want to tell me that you're going to trade away Rutherford because Engel, Tilson, and Cordell give you confidence that CF is covered? Carson Fulmer for Kevin Maitan. Two well regarded prospects who fell from off the prospect cliffs for vastly different reasons. Plus the Angels just drafted Jeremiah Jackson this June, and at 18 (same age as Maitan) has been killing it in rookie ball, so Jackson could easily pass him on their org depth chart anyway, and given their similar ages, would block Maitan out. But obviously that wouldn't help our need for a 3B by 2020, as Maitan is probably 3-4 years away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Or Fulmer to the Brewers for 3B Lucas Erceg. Or if the Rays for some reason wanted Fulmer, and we get 3B Christian Arroyo back. Basically as someone else said, look for a "change of scenery" type move where we can get a 3B prospect back who stalled in their development, similar to Fulmer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 30 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Have we gotten the Cubs checkbook? Awesome! We have the Cubs checkbook, just an owner unwilling to spend it. And fans willing to defend his frugalness. https://www.forbes.com/profile/jerry-reinsdorf/#525653d56d28 I used to defend the concept of small market vs big market but have come to realize it's all BS. Reinsdorf has a net worth of $1.4 billion. All MLB owners are massively wealthy. They could afford to spend more to win games but refuse to do so, Pittsburgh and Tampa are even clearer examples. I understand the concept of business profit loss but MLB teams are not normal businesses. They should be about winning games, which increases profits, with some risk, but owners would rather be cheap in order of long term financial gain, nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footlongcomiskeydog Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 23 minutes ago, Dam8610 said: The bolded is a fireable offense. 4 WAR catchers don't come cheap. Also, if trading James Shields for Tatis JR isn't a fireable offense then nothing is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said: We have the Cubs checkbook, just an owner unwilling to spend it. And fans willing to defend his frugalness. https://www.forbes.com/profile/jerry-reinsdorf/#525653d56d28 I used to defend the concept of small market vs big market but have come to realize it's all BS. Reinsdorf has a net worth of $1.4 billion. All MLB owners are massively wealthy. They could afford to spend more to win games but refuse to do so, Pittsburgh and Tampa are even clearer examples. I understand the concept of business profit loss but MLB teams are not normal businesses. They should be about winning games, which increases profits, with some risk, but owners would rather be cheap in order of long term financial gain, nothing else. Last I checked the Cubs had something like double the Sox revenues. Someone's net worth is absolutely pointless here, especially when that net worth isn't cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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