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Hahn confirmed: No Eloy in '18

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2 hours ago, ptatc said:

We may. He may discuss it if he is that passionate about it or they are usually rumors about what each team offers. If he signs somewhere for less money than the Cubs offer, the union may use it as an example for the CBA negotiations to try to get the owners to change the rule.

But you're right that we may not know for sure, but I have a feeling it will come out.

Very true. That'll be pretty interesting if he chooses to discuss it.

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7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If he wasn't interested in signing something before he ever played a major league game that would set him up for life, he wasn't going to sign something if he has some success later just because the Sox called him up in September 2018. It's ludicrous to even consider that a possibility. Just like everyone else, if the Sox want to keep Eloy if he turns out to be great, will be to pay him the most money. Bryce Harper didn't sign an extension. The Nationals were pretty nice to him. Manny Machado didn't sign an extension. The Orioles were pretty nice to him. The days of the Sale-like extensions, especially for big time position player prospects are coming to an end. 

I'm not sure there is evidence to support this. There is always going to be a balance of those that take the money vs. those that risk it. People see manny/harper, but also notice guys like frazier/moustakas who didn't get near the payout they expected.

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13 minutes ago, bmags said:

I'm not sure there is evidence to support this. There is always going to be a balance of those that take the money vs. those that risk it. People see manny/harper, but also notice guys like frazier/moustakas who didn't get near the payout they expected.

Neither was the prospect Eloy was. Moustakis was highly regarded but really struggled for a while, yet, you take his numbers, he will have made about $1.5 million less than Tim Anderson was guaranteed when he bought out his arb and a year of free agency. Inflation would cover that IMO. I just don't think you can count on the offensive equivalent to Sale sign a team friendly extension even if it sets them up for life. The Sox had 3 of them. It's pretty incredible they were able to do that. If anything it shows guys actually like playing for the White Sox. The exact opposite of bitterness because they took advantage of the rules. 

Edited by Dick Allen

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8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Neither was the prospect Eloy was. Moustakis was highly regarded but really struggled for a while, yet, you take his numbers, he will have made about $1.5 million less than Tim Anderson was guaranteed when he bought out his arb and a year of free agency. Inflation would cover that IMO. I just don't think you can count on the offensive equivalent to Sale sign a team friendly extension even if it sets them up for life. The Sox had 3 of them. It's pretty incredible they were able to do that. If anything it shows guys actually like playing for the White Sox. The exact opposite of bitterness because they took advantage of the rules. 

Sale, Quintana, Eaton, Anderson, so 4, right? 

Edited by Jose Abreu

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33 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If he wasn't interested in signing something before he ever played a major league game that would set him up for life, he wasn't going to sign something if he has some success later just because the Sox called him up in September 2018. It's ludicrous to even consider that a possibility. Just like everyone else, if the Sox want to keep Eloy if he turns out to be great, will be to pay him the most money. Bryce Harper didn't sign an extension. The Nationals were pretty nice to him. Manny Machado didn't sign an extension. The Orioles were pretty nice to him. The days of the Sale-like extensions, especially for big time position player prospects are coming to an end. 

You do endorse holding guys down for Super 2 reasons. Why wouldn't that piss a player off? 

I think your term of ludicrous is way off. These are unique circumstances where we don't  know how it is going to go. Harper was brought up as what a 19 year old? He also is not going to sign with Washington this winter and they know it. The only other player to feel strongly enough about the way he was treated to file a grievance or discuss it was Bryant and even he did sign an extension to buy out his arb year but not his FA years. 

I'm not saying that once they didn't call him up in August that they shouldn't  keep him down now. I think they should keep him down until the next service time deadline. The reps I'm sure wouldn't have too many issues with that. It usually only a few weeks or so. However in this case where he was so obviously ready earlier in the year it's a much longer period of time.

Edited by ptatc

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9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Neither was the prospect Eloy was. Moustakis was highly regarded but really struggled for a while, yet, you take his numbers, he will have made about $1.5 million less than Tim Anderson was guaranteed when he bought out his arb and a year of free agency. Inflation would cover that IMO. I just don't think you can count on the offensive equivalent to Sale sign a team friendly extension even if it sets them up for life. The Sox had 3 of them. It's pretty incredible they were able to do that. If anything it shows guys actually like playing for the White Sox. The exact opposite of bitterness because they took advantage of the rules. 

The Sox brought Sale up the year he was drafted. The Sox have Quintana and Eaton the chances to succeed. They showed a great deal of good will and opportunities for those players. So far, the Sox have told Jimenez that we are only concerned with limiting your income. You are a business commodity to us.

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10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Neither was the prospect Eloy was. Moustakis was highly regarded but really struggled for a while, yet, you take his numbers, he will have made about $1.5 million less than Tim Anderson was guaranteed when he bought out his arb and a year of free agency. Inflation would cover that IMO. I just don't think you can count on the offensive equivalent to Sale sign a team friendly extension even if it sets them up for life. The Sox had 3 of them. It's pretty incredible they were able to do that. If anything it shows guys actually like playing for the White Sox. The exact opposite of bitterness because they took advantage of the rules. 

I'm not at all concerned about an Eloy extension at this point. He has a ton to prove between now and when he hits free agency, to the point where it is a non issue for me. We have essentially seven seasons of control, which is through Eloy's prime. Lets not freak about an extension right now. 

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2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The Sox brought Sale up the year he was drafted. The Sox have Quintana and Eaton the chances to succeed. They showed a great deal of good will and opportunities for those players. So far, the Sox have told Jimenez that we are only concerned with limiting your income. You are a business commodity to us.

You cannot compare pitching prospects to position player prospects in this regard. We were also trying to compete instead of rebuilding. 

Keeping Eloy down is the best long term decision for the organization, and it's difficult to argue with that. 

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37 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If he wasn't interested in signing something before he ever played a major league game that would set him up for life, he wasn't going to sign something if he has some success later just because the Sox called him up in September 2018. It's ludicrous to even consider that a possibility. Just like everyone else, if the Sox want to keep Eloy if he turns out to be great, will be to pay him the most money. Bryce Harper didn't sign an extension. The Nationals were pretty nice to him. Manny Machado didn't sign an extension. The Orioles were pretty nice to him. The days of the Sale-like extensions, especially for big time position player prospects are coming to an end. 

You do endorse holding guys down for Super 2 reasons. Why wouldn't that piss a player off? 

We just had the Scott Kingery extension this spring.

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9 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Sale, Quintana, Eaton, Anderson, so 4, right? 

If you want to include Sergio Santos, we could call it 5 depending on what you mean by "early".

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5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The Sox brought Sale up the year he was drafted. The Sox have Quintana and Eaton the chances to succeed. They showed a great deal of good will and opportunities for those players. So far, the Sox have told Jimenez that we are only concerned with limiting your income. You are a business commodity to us.

Eaton already had service time when the Sox acquired him. Sale took less of a bonus for the call up, limiting his income. Actually signing the extensions wound up limiting their income. 

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4 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

You cannot compare pitching prospects to position player prospects in this regard. We were also trying to compete instead of rebuilding. 

Keeping Eloy down is the best long term decision for the organization, and it's difficult to argue with that. 

I'm not arguing that. My argument is was it worth it to possibly anger his group to the point that when he reaches FA and his prime he won't  sign with the Sox unless they significantly offer more money than anyone else.

There is no doubt it is the correct business decision now, since they didn't call him up in August.  It is also the correct business decision vision to keep him down until the next service deadline in April.

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5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Eaton already had service time when the Sox acquired him. Sale took less of a bonus for the call up, limiting his income. Actually signing the extensions wound up limiting their income. 

However, in each case the players took the offered deal, possibly limiting their income because of the good will the Sox showed.

None of this has happened with Jimenez. 

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5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

However, in each case the players took the offered deal, possibly limiting their income because of the good will the Sox showed.

None of this has happened with Jimenez. 

The 2 most angry White Sox since JR took over IMO were Carlton Fisk and Jack McDowell. Fisk played until he was 45, and McDowell comes back here all the time, and would have come back to pitch for the White Sox had his body cooperated. 

This is part of the game, just like all rookie contracts. Again, you are for holding down guys so they don't get to Super 2. How is that not limiting their income and something that shouldn't piss them off? It's taking advantage of the loopholes provided, just like these players and their agents do whenever they get the chance. I think anyone who really thinks Eloy now has a grudge against the team is just speculating. I am of the believe he knew, and his agents are just being agents. 

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6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The 2 most angry White Sox since JR took over IMO were Carlton Fisk and Jack McDowell. Fisk played until he was 45, and McDowell comes back here all the time, and would have come back to pitch for the White Sox had his body cooperated. 

This is part of the game, just like all rookie contracts. Again, you are for holding down guys so they don't get to Super 2. How is that not limiting their income and something that shouldn't piss them off? It's taking advantage of the loopholes provided, just like these players and their agents do whenever they get the chance. I think anyone who really thinks Eloy now has a grudge against the team is just speculating. I am of the believe he knew, and his agents are just being agents. 

Of course it's speculation, your point is speculation as well.

My point is, was it worth it for the Sox to do this. In light of the article that Jimenez endorsed and the comments by his reps, they are taking a chance.

Edited by ptatc

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Just now, ptatc said:

Of course it's speculation, your point is speculation as well.

My point is, was it worth it for the Sox to do this. In light of the article that Jimenez endorsed and that comments by his reps, they are taking a chance.

Would a player of Eloy's status given the opportunity to write something, actually say he wasn't ready? Of course he thinks he's ready. So do I. That's not the point. The point is there is a business side to this.

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32 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I'm not arguing that. My argument is was it worth it to possibly anger his group to the point that when he reaches FA and his prime he won't  sign with the Sox unless they significantly offer more money than anyone else.

There is no doubt it is the correct business decision now, since they didn't call him up in August.  It is also the correct business decision vision to keep him down until the next service deadline in April.

He's not a free agent until 2025 essentially now. Way too soon to be talking about him not wanting to sign an extension before having his first professional at bat. Frankly, I hope he walks the walk when he comes up to the majors because he still has everything to prove. 

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23 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Would a player of Eloy's status given the opportunity to write something, actually say he wasn't ready? Of course he thinks he's ready. So do I. That's not the point. The point is there is a business side to this.

There is a business side, doesn't mean the business decision doesn't  piss people off.

My boss just told me there is no room in the wonderful  state budget to support any of our mandatory continuing education. This means i need to spend thousands of my own dollars to keep my job. Do I understand it, yes. Does it make me happy, no. Will it effect my future employment, good possibliity.

 Jimenez said what he should have said, however he wasn't forced to say anything. The fact that he did say something speaks volumes about his views.

Edited by ptatc

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10 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

He's not a free agent until 2025 essentially now. Way too soon to be talking about him not wanting to sign an extension before having his first professional at bat. Frankly, I hope he walks the walk when he comes up to the majors because he still has everything to prove. 

Thats fine if you arent concerned about retaining your good players. Welcome to the Chicago Pirates.

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7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

There is a business side, doesn't mean the business decision doesn't  piss people off.

My boss just told me there is no room in the wonderful  state budget to support any of our mandatory continuing education. This means i need to spend thousands of my own dollars to keep my job. Do I understand it, yes. Does it make me happy, no. Will it effect my future employment, good possibliity.

 Jimenez said what he should have said, however he wasn't forced to say anything. The fact that he did say something speaks volumes about his views.

Why won't you answer the Super 2 question? 

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3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Why won't you answer the Super 2 question? 

Wow you are down to picking a very isolated topic in the whole discussion. Getting desperate.

I did answer it, I think. In one of the posts I said that waiting a few weeks for that deadline is not the same as waiting the months at the end of the year.

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5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Wow you are down to picking a very isolated topic in the whole discussion. Getting desperate.

I did answer it, I think. In one of the posts I said that waiting a few weeks for that deadline is not the same as waiting the months at the end of the year.

Super 2 cutoff is usually around 65 days. Even longer than holding out Eloy now, and 2 weeks of next season for the extra year. And it's limiting their income by choice. Something you have stated is a no no. 

 

Edited by Dick Allen

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9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Super 2 cutoff is usually around 65 days. Even longer than holding out Eloy now, and 2 weeks of next season for the extra year. And it's limiting their income by choice. Something you have stated is a no no. 

 

Ok. In this situation, I would have a problem with the Super 2 deadline as should the player. I've stated all along that the next service time deadline after he is deemed ready is justifiable.  He is obviously ready now so the next deadline would be April 15th one whichever one that is. To skip over that one and now wait another 30 days or whatever that would be, would piss me off.

If he was still struggling, waiting the time in the minors at the beginning of the year is justiable.

Again, I'm not arguing it's not a good business decision in the short term. Just that is it worth the chance of harming thebl0ng term business plan.

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8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Ok. In this situation, I would have a problem with the Super 2 deadline as should the player. I've stated all along that the next service time deadline after he is deemed ready is justifiable.  He is obviously ready now so the next deadline would be April 15th one whichever one that is. To skip over that one and now wait another 30 days or whatever that would be, would piss me off.

If he was still struggling, waiting the time in the minors at the beginning of the year is justiable.

Again, I'm not arguing it's not a good business decision in the short term. Just that is it worth the chance of harming thebl0ng term business plan.

Is that really the case?  They have 6+ years to "make it right" to him.  IMO, the Sox offered him a team friendly contract to buy out his arb years and he declined.  That seems like he's chasing the money and more power to him if he bets on himself to outperform any previous offer.  The Sox could offer him a way better deal next year, but no matter what he's going to the highest bidder when he reaches free agency (and if it's us he stays and if it's not he walks).  I don't see the uproar.....

 

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3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Because the grudge opinion does not work. Every team would do this in the White Sox situation. They are one of the few that doesn't do it every time. If that means guys won't sign with these teams, they are going to limit their markets to teams that can't pay them anyways. 

Eloy and his reps know the score. They knew what was going to happen. This isn't shocking to them. It's the rules, and it's stupid for teams not to use them to their advantage, just like players use rules to their advantage. It was something that was collectively bargained. If Eloy and his agents have an issue with anyone, it's the Union for agreeing to this. Maybe he will be so pissed off he will refuse to join.

I really don't know what he would get out of facing the Tigers anyways. It's a glorified AAA team, and supposedly he gets nothing out of facing that kind of competition. 

Actually the Red Sox ( maybe it is Dombrowski ) does not do this. Obviosuly they brought up Beninteni and Moncada right from AA. They then traded Moncada and brought up Devers  at 20. I saw an article a few weeks ago where Dombrowski said he was against holding a player back for service time. He said the best coaches are in the majors and you can slow down progression leaving a kid in AAA. Now the other side of that is Boston has money and they are pretty confident they can keep their young players. But obviossly the Theo regime did not think this way. I wonder if Dombrowwski did the same thing in Detroit? Avi didn't spend much time in AAA

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