Kopech has a torn UCL, TJS recommended

[Jack Parkman]

8 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Basabe is a prospect by any definition (close to top 100 in several lists). Just stop already.

I included him. For the real prospects in the trades, I included Moncada/Jimenez/Basabe as the hitters and Giolito/Lopez/Kopech/Cease/Dunning as the pitchers. 

If you only count guys with high end potential, you subtract Basabe and Dunning. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[NWINFan]

I could only read to much as there is plenty of overreaction here. 

That doesn't mean this isn't a devastating setback. It obviously is. But now the front office has a real challenge. No one can expect rebuilds to go perfectly. So how is the team going to respond now? How long can it expect other prospects to develop? 

I would like to know what is being said behind closed doors in the organization. Are they going to keep telling fans to be patient when Kopech is hurt and Moncada is developing slowly? The front office must demonstrate somehow that it has a real plan. Selling the youth movement is not going to work anymore especially with the string of losing seasons.  2020 will make it 15 years since the World Series. Do they want to make it to 2025 and extend it to 20?

I saw logic of the rebuild even as it tried my patience.  I won't have any patience unless I see some real deep thinking from the organization. 

[Kyyle23]

1 minute ago, NWINFan said:

I could only read to much as there is plenty of overreaction here. 

That doesn't mean this isn't a devastating setback. It obviously is. But now the front office has a real challenge. No one can expect rebuilds to go perfectly. So how is the team going to respond now? How long can it expect other prospects to develop? 

I would like to know what is being said behind closed doors in the organization. Are they going to keep telling fans to be patient when Kopech is hurt and Moncada is developing slowly? The front office must demonstrate somehow that it has a real plan. Selling the youth movement is not going to work anymore especially with the string of losing seasons.  2020 will make it 15 years since the World Series. Do they want to make it to 2025 and extend it to 20?

I saw logic of the rebuild even as it tried my patience.  I won't have any patience unless I see some real deep thinking from the organization. 

do you honestly think that the organization is just gonna open up and tell us all what you want them to tell us?  

[soxfan49]

3 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I could only read to much as there is plenty of overreaction here. 

That doesn't mean this isn't a devastating setback. It obviously is. But now the front office has a real challenge. No one can expect rebuilds to go perfectly. So how is the team going to respond now? How long can it expect other prospects to develop? 

I would like to know what is being said behind closed doors in the organization. Are they going to keep telling fans to be patient when Kopech is hurt and Moncada is developing slowly? The front office must demonstrate somehow that it has a real plan. Selling the youth movement is not going to work anymore especially with the string of losing seasons.  2020 will make it 15 years since the World Series. Do they want to make it to 2025 and extend it to 20?

I saw logic of the rebuild even as it tried my patience.  I won't have any patience unless I see some real deep thinking from the organization. 

The Astros didn't let the horrible career of Mark Appel hinder their rebuild, although at the time of his failures I bet the vast majority of their fans were extremely distraught/disappointed/pessimistic. The Sox and their fans need to do the same here.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

4 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

The Astros didn't let the horrible career of Mark Appel hinder their rebuild, although at the time of his failures I bet the vast majority of their fans were extremely distraught/disappointed/pessimistic. The Sox and their fans need to do the same here.

Quit comparing the Sox rebuild to the Astros. The Astros rebuilt mainly around position players and didn't trade a future HOF pitcher for Mark Appel.

Also, you are assuming that the Sox FO is as talented as Luhnow and company. The Sox FO is nowhere close. It's like comparing a law degree from SIU to one from Harvard. The two are not even close to equal.

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Quit comparing the Sox rebuild to the Astros. The Astros rebuilt mainly around position players and didn't trade a future HOF pitcher for Mark Appel.

Also, you are assuming that the Sox FO is as talented as Luhnow and company. The Sox FO is nowhere close. It's like comparing a law degree from SIU to one from Harvard. The two are not even close to equal.

As long as you pass the BAR exam the degrees are equal. What is the pass rate on the BAR for each school?

Edited September 8, 2018 by ptatc

[soxfan49]

9 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Quit comparing the Sox rebuild to the Astros. The Astros rebuilt mainly around position players and didn't trade a future HOF pitcher for Mark Appel.

Also, you are assuming that the Sox FO is as talented as Luhnow and company. The Sox FO is nowhere close. It's like comparing a law degree from SIU to one from Harvard. The two are not even close to equal.

I'm not comparing the rebuilds. I'm comparing the loss of a major cog of the rebuild. Appel was supposed to be a huge piece, but he sucked and IIRC is no longer in pro baseball. Kopech was on the way up and won't pitch for one season. Hopefully all of the terrible pieces (in your words) like Moncada, Robert, and Madrigal have better 2019's.

[Chisoxmb35]

35 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Quit comparing the Sox rebuild to the Astros. The Astros rebuilt mainly around position players and didn't trade a future HOF pitcher for Mark Appel.

Also, you are assuming that the Sox FO is as talented as Luhnow and company. The Sox FO is nowhere close. It's like comparing a law degree from SIU to one from Harvard. The two are not even close to equal.

Your posts make this board hard to read to be honest. It's sad. 

[Flash]

Time to get back to the business of tanking. No reason to finish with pick 6-10 when some well executed losing can net us #3.

[southsider2k5]

38 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Quit comparing the Sox rebuild to the Astros. The Astros rebuilt mainly around position players and didn't trade a future HOF pitcher for Mark Appel.

Also, you are assuming that the Sox FO is as talented as Luhnow and company. The Sox FO is nowhere close. It's like comparing a law degree from SIU to one from Harvard. The two are not even close to equal.

This also proves that all posts are not comparable. 

[southsider2k5]

 

[whitesoxbrad]

10 minutes ago, Flash said:

Time to get back to the business of tanking. No reason to finish with pick 6-10 when some well executed losing can net us #3.

What is the difference, 3 or 10, let me know what difference maker we have drafted in the last 3 years under Nick hostetler and this front office, unfortunately to this point none.

[wrathofhahn]

This is why it was so stupid to call him up. Say good bye to two years of service time.

[reiks12]

14 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

This is why it was so stupid to call him up. Say good bye to two years of service time.

So he stays in AAA until next year and it tears during Spring training and hes out until mid 2020. What then?

[ptatc]

14 minutes ago, whitesoxbrad said:

What is the difference, 3 or 10, let me know what difference maker we have drafted in the last 3 years under Nick hostetler and this front office, unfortunately to this point none.

Most prospects drafted don't make it to the MLB in 3 years so right now the answer is inconclusive.  However some should make their MLB debut next year. That's when we can start drawing conclusions.

[Bob Sacamano]

14 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

So he stays in AAA until next year and it tears during Spring training and hes out until mid 2020. What then?

They probably would have discovered it a lot sooner than spring training considering he still would have been pitching in the minors (and more inning since 2 of his starts here were shortened by rain). The pain has been building up for who knows how long.

Edited September 8, 2018 by soxfan2014

[ptatc]

20 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

They probably would have discovered it a lot sooner than spring training considering he still would have been pitching in the minors (and more inning since 2 of his starts here were shortened by rain). The pain has been building up for who knows how long.

He reported it wasn't. Just some recent soreness that he though was normal soreness. He was ready to make his next start but decided to tell the medical staff anyway.

[Dominikk85]

Actually the white sox have had one of the lower injury rates in the majors the last 6-7 years.

[Lip Man 1]

27 minutes ago, dominik-keul@gmx.de said:

Actually the white sox have had one of the lower injury rates in the majors the last 6-7 years.

It's actually been longer than that although the past few seasons that has gone up dramatically for them according the Sox media guide.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Lip Man 1

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

14 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

THey might be a little more conservative with Cease, but not because of this - his innings total was less this year than Kopech's was last year, so they may want to stop him on September 1 next year to avoid overloading him.

The Cubs and the Sox have always been conservative with Cease since he was drafted in the 6th round and given a hefty bonus for a 6th rounder who was about to have Tommy John surgery.

It's pretty much the whole reason fangraphs doesn't give him a ringing endorsing. He is kind of perceived as somewhat frail.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, The Sir said:

Going to be very quick because I’m home on leave for the weekend, but I really don’t share the pessimism for 2019. Next year was more about Moncada/Anderson/Rodon/Giolito/ Lopez making progress. Kopech was a hell of a nice topper, but if those other guys didn’t progress as expected, it was going to be meaningless. Let’s sign a few FAs, call up Eloy two weeks in, and win 86 games and shoot for the second WC. Be ready to dominate in 2020 when Kopech returns and Cease, Madrigal and others join us. Keep your heads up.

This team still doesn't have a ton of positional talent on it, Eloy will make a difference but as a rookie he might still have a slump or two in him. 3b is being covered by a utility guy, our catcher was suspended for steroids, our middle infield is young and struggled a ton, CF is a black hole, we might have a decent DH, but our RF who was an all star last year was bad enough he could be nontendered this year, and our 1b has had the worst season of his career at age 31. Some of that might improve next year just by luck, but if we were thinking of getting to mid-80s wins next year, we'd get there because the strength on the organization would be a rough rotation led by Kopech and Rodon, with better depth at 3 and 4 than we have had in a decade. If that rotation stepped forwards then we could have surprised next year, but we just lost the key piece. .500 next year was already an "everything is going right" kinda setup, and this destroys that concept. Now just for 2019 we have 2 rotation slots to fill in addition to a bullpen that is at best inexperienced and a young lineup with a lot of holes. 

Kopech isn't going to come out and throw 200 innings in 2020 and he might not even be very effective, it takes a while to rebuild strength from this surgery. Madrigal in 2020 is a huge rush. Hopefully by then we're seeing serious progress from Moncada, we'll have some guys like Collins up, but the Winston-Salem team that is so talent loaded won't be ready to take over the OF and other spots until 2021. 

[footlongcomiskeydog]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This team still doesn't have a ton of positional talent on it, Eloy will make a difference but as a rookie he might still have a slump or two in him. 3b is being covered by a utility guy, our catcher was suspended for steroids, our middle infield is young and struggled a ton, CF is a black hole, we might have a decent DH, but our RF who was an all star last year was bad enough he could be nontendered this year, and our 1b has had the worst season of his career at age 31. Some of that might improve next year just by luck, but if we were thinking of getting to mid-80s wins next year, we'd get there because the strength on the organization would be a rough rotation led by Kopech and Rodon, with better depth at 3 and 4 than we have had in a decade. If that rotation stepped forwards then we could have surprised next year, but we just lost the key piece. .500 next year was already an "everything is going right" kinda setup, and this destroys that concept. Now just for 2019 we have 2 rotation slots to fill in addition to a bullpen that is at best inexperienced and a young lineup with a lot of holes. 

Kopech isn't going to come out and throw 200 innings in 2020 and he might not even be very effective, it takes a while to rebuild strength from this surgery. Madrigal in 2020 is a huge rush. Hopefully by then we're seeing serious progress from Moncada, we'll have some guys like Collins up, but the Winston-Salem team that is so talent loaded won't be ready to take over the OF and other spots until 2021. 

Yep. Next year is looking like another tank year for sure. Way too many question marks on the position player side of things. Unless the Sox shock the world and spend big this offseason we are looking at more playing time for stalwarts like Adam Engel, Matt Davidson, Avi Garcia, Wellington Castillo, and Carlos Sanchez.

The Sox might even resign big game James to a one year deal to take Kopechs place and eat some innings again.

Gonna be another exciting year on the South Side! Get your 2019 tix before they are gone!

[NWINFan]

3 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

do you honestly think that the organization is just gonna open up and tell us all what you want them to tell us?  

No, not really. But there are ways to communicate to fans to instill confidence. Powerful organizations do it with the public all the time without letting people in on private conversations. I would like to have something to hang my hat on, if you don't mind. The team has put together a horrible decade, and my confidence level is not all that high. Ten years without going to the post season. In the era of the wild cards, that stinks.  Two things I don't want to hear: Be patient. And I don't want to listen to over-hyping prospects when they get called up. The hype on Kopech was absurd.

 

[Balta1701]

39 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Yep. Next year is looking like another tank year for sure. Way too many question marks on the position player side of things. Unless the Sox shock the world and spend big this offseason we are looking at more playing time for stalwarts like Adam Engel, Matt Davidson, Avi Garcia, Wellington Castillo, and Carlos Sanchez.

The Sox might even resign big game James to a one year deal to take Kopechs place and eat some innings again.

Gonna be another exciting year on the South Side! Get your 2019 tix before they are gone!

I would have hated re-upping Shields 2 days ago, because I would have liked to see them go for someone stronger to fill the back of that rotation and I thought that could be a legit strength. Our offense and defense wouldn't have measured up to the big boys even with Eloy and Machado, just go compare the guys we have to Cleveland, Boston, Houston, or New York, but a rotation of Kopech, Rodon Lopez, Giolito, and a legit 5th guy could have been as good as any of them. That could have been the thing our organization was strong in, strong enough to push .500. Drop out the top name on that rotation list and the back side is now a gaping hole. Now, adding in Shields and another arm are necessary just to fill innings, and it's basically impossible for the rotation to be a strength without blowing a huge amount of money.

A couple days ago I thought that right now, the White Sox were a 90 loss team, and I thought that over the offseason, improvement in guys would probably bring them up to an 85 loss team level. They were a 100+ loss team at the start of the year, improvement during the year probably has made them a 93-95-ish loss team, adding in Kopech would have made this a ~90 loss team. Now, improvement over the offseason just makes up for losing Kopech and they're still a 90-ish loss team. Adding in 10 wins on the free agent market isn't cheap. That's a $100 million payroll boost just to get to .500.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I woke up from a nap to this news the other day. Had to wipe my eyes because I thought it was a spam account. Truly unbelievable. The White Sox can’t have nice things. How many guys have gotten hurt this year? Seems like every major prospect. Just an absolute Mike Tyson level gut punch. Just as I was starting to get excited for the off-season and the rotation next year. This is why you throw a large volume of pitching prospects in the system. The silver lining is it happened now and not when they were competing. Get well Kopech. See ya in 2020!