kitekrazy Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 23 hours ago, caulfield12 said: See Nats/Strasburg. Their recent legacy will be having all that talent on one roster, yet never winning a playoff series. It must be frustrating to be a Nats fan. They are the most overrated team ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grinder Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Way too soon to call the rebuild a bust, I say take our time and do it right. I'd endure up to 2 more yrs of this God awful baseball. I just dont like to see our fan base further eroding, maybe its hit rock bottom as it is, esp with the other team in town establishing themselves as a permanent force that will be good for a long time if not indefinitely. Where I live in the cornfields of northwest Illinois, the white sox are what is in yr top dresser drawer. Whenever I go to a HS football game, they always include the cub score when giving area football scores. Isnt there another team around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 6 hours ago, The Grinder said: Where I live in the cornfields of northwest Illinois, the white sox are what is in yr top dresser drawer. Whenever I go to a HS football game, they always include the cub score when giving area football scores. Isnt there another team around? You should ask the PA guy about that...I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 This thread = Epic Fail 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 On 9/11/2018 at 9:05 PM, kitekrazy said: It must be frustrating to be a Nats fan. They are the most overrated team ever. Shutting Strasburg down that one year angered the baseball gods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 10 hours ago, Quinarvy said: Shutting Strasburg down that one year angered the baseball gods. Yep, they hated that Still salty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Jerksticks said: Yep, they hated that Still salty What would bd the reaction if the Sox had to do that with Kopech next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, ptatc said: What would bd the reaction if the Sox had to do that with Kopech next year. Which is why you attempt to stretch pitchers innings to be ready for 180 IP once they reach the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusguyman Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 13 minutes ago, ptatc said: What would bd the reaction if the Sox had to do that with Kopech next year. 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Which is why you attempt to stretch pitchers innings to be ready for 180 IP once they reach the majors. Dylan Cease is the more likely canidate for a shutdown. With a TJ already behind him, you really don't want to have a large year-over-year jump in IP, so if he forces his way to the majors next year, or even the one after, he may not be at 180 yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, gusguyman said: Dylan Cease is the more likely canidate for a shutdown. With a TJ already behind him, you really don't want to have a large year-over-year jump in IP, so if he forces his way to the majors next year, or even the one after, he may not be at 180 yet. And seeing as they shut him down early this year, that tells me they weren't fully confident in being able to push him a little further this year. That is a red flag to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 22 minutes ago, ptatc said: What would bd the reaction if the Sox had to do that with Kopech next year. They wouldn't be that stupid. If they were worried about innings but were a playoff contender, they would give him more breaks during the regular season, instead of just keeping him on a normal schedule then shutting him down for the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusguyman Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: And seeing as they shut him down early this year, that tells me they weren't fully confident in being able to push him a little further this year. That is a red flag to me. I believe the "Verducci Effect" risk zone is >30 IP added, and he was already at 31 more IP than last year so it was smart, though maybe even too late already. Still, that means next year is 150, and he couldn't hit 180 until 2020 (and that is optimistic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 1 minute ago, gusguyman said: I believe the "Verducci Effect" risk zone is >30 IP added, and he was already at 31 more IP than last year so it was smart, though maybe even too late already. Still, that means next year is 150, and he couldn't hit 180 until 2020 (and that is optimistic) The Sox don't really follow that rule. It is more touch and feel for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusguyman Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: The Sox don't really follow that rule. It is more touch and feel for them. FWIW, Dunning added 32 IP in 2017 and Hansen added 35 IP in 2017 (both had over half of their 2016 IP in college and IDK if that affects anything), and both have had huge IP drops this year. Maybe they should follow it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, gusguyman said: FWIW, Dunning added 32 IP in 2017 and Hansen added 35 IP in 2017 (both had over half of their 2016 IP in college and IDK if that affects anything), and both have had huge IP drops this year. Maybe they should follow it more. You can also go back and look at Quintana and Sale for examples where it worked just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 59 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said: They wouldn't be that stupid. If they were worried about innings but were a playoff contender, they would give him more breaks during the regular season, instead of just keeping him on a normal schedule then shutting him down for the playoffs. You would hope so. However, if they were in contention would they make the decision to skip starts during the year if it was a close race? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, ptatc said: You would hope so. However, if they were in contention would they make the decision to skip starts during the year if it was a close race? I believe back in 2012 the solution with both Sale and Quintana was they dropped their throwing days in-between starts to near minimum or non-existant, I think they also skipped a start or two with each of them but still kept putting them out there. Unfortunately their arms hit exhaustion during September and their ERAs spiked as the team fell off the pace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I believe back in 2012 the solution with both Sale and Quintana was they dropped their throwing days in-between starts to near minimum or non-existant, I think they also skipped a start or two with each of them but still kept putting them out there. Unfortunately their arms hit exhaustion during September and their ERAs spiked as the team fell off the pace. This would be the discussion. I'm not sure there is a right answer but they would need to decrease the innings but they would still be fatigued at the end and may not be useful. This is why they need to increase the innings while they can and why it was the correct decision to bring Kopech up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusguyman Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said: You can also go back and look at Quintana and Sale for examples where it worked just fine. Oh yeah, the Verducci thing is a rule of thumb at best, and it has not held up to any rigorous statistical study to date. However, the general thought process around it is what usually leads to pitchers being shut down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 23 minutes ago, ptatc said: This would be the discussion. I'm not sure there is a right answer but they would need to decrease the innings but they would still be fatigued at the end and may not be useful. This is why they need to increase the innings while they can and why it was the correct decision to bring Kopech up. It's all pretty arbitrary though, isn't it? Not all 6 inning outings are going to be the same. And with pitch counts, 100 pitches seems like someone's idea of a nice round number being a magic number, and it also kind of implies everyone is pretty much the same. There are probably guys who should go usually no more than 80 but throw 100 on a good day, and others where 120 wouldn't be too much of a problem, and maybe even 140 if needed once in a while. But people would freak out, and it is a cover your ass issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, ptatc said: What would bd the reaction if the Sox had to do that with Kopech next year. The Sox handled it better than that (see the year they broke Sale into the rotation). Instead of shutting the guy down, you just give a little more rest throughout the season to stretch him over the course of a full season instead of just cutting it short. Edited September 14, 2018 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: The Sox don't really follow that rule. It is more touch and feel for them. Which seems to make sense. Attached is a pretty interesting article on TJ with input from White Sox team doctor. https://www.si.com/edge/2016/06/14/fastballs-curveballs-tommy-john-surgery-mlb-youth-baseball-prevention Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Dick Allen said: It's all pretty arbitrary though, isn't it? Not all 6 inning outings are going to be the same. And with pitch counts, 100 pitches seems like someone's idea of a nice round number being a magic number, and it also kind of implies everyone is pretty much the same. There are probably guys who should go usually no more than 80 but throw 100 on a good day, and others where 120 wouldn't be too much of a problem, and maybe even 140 if needed once in a while. But people would freak out, and it is a cover your ass issue. It is. that's why it would be a discussion. However, as a general rule they would have gone from 160 to 200. Even if they did he would have been gassed and probably ineffective. In today's game I don't think the 120 to 140 would work. the pitchers throw so hard too often and gas themselves early. There may be a few that could do it but most don't look past 6 innings and 100 anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Coop likes his guys to pitch to contact. Pitchers who K a lot of guys throw a lot more pitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 21 hours ago, kitekrazy said: Coop likes his guys to pitch to contact. Pitchers who K a lot of guys throw a lot more pitches. The pitching to contact also goes along with not throwing at the top of your range to add more movement and protect your arm. Beat that ball into the ground! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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