Old Farts Only: 50 + Year Sox Fans

[bubba phillips]

We were reminiscing on another thread about some of the players on that infamous 1970 team that holds the record for most losses in a season (106).  That got me thinking about some of the worst trades that the Sox made, trades that probably cost us a pennant or two.

I'm talking about the trades that the sainted owner Bill Veeck allowed GM Frank Lane to make after the 1959 season.  The intent was to make sure that the '59 pennant was not a fluke and to compete for additional league championships.  To that end, they traded youngsters for over-the-hill veterans (some things never change).

We traded the likes of future 30-game winner Denny McLain, solid catcher Earl Battey,  young outfielder Johnny Callison and others for a bunch of has-beens.  Had we not made those trades, our record would have been a lot better in the mid to late 1960's, years in which we lost the pennant by a handful of games in a couple of those years.

I know that hindsight is 20/20 but I can't help wondering "what if".

[GreenSox]

I believe that they also traded Norm Cash around that time.

[bubba phillips]

14 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

I believe that they also traded Norm Cash around that time.

Absolutely right.  I don't know how I missed him. I believe Norm hit  .361 one year for Detroit.

Edited September 17, 2018 by bubba phillips

[GreenSox]

15 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

Absolutely right.  I don't know how I missed him. I believe Norm hit  .361 one year for Detroit.

I don't think he quite did that,  but he was an above average regular for them for 10+ years.
The post 58 transactions are probably the most egregious, but, as you said, they have a habit of doing that sort of thing.  In the late 60s they trade for Tommy Davis and an aging Aparicio and the team hits the skids.  Then it's Ron Santo and Ralph Garr.  And then Bobby Bonds (for the highly productive Brian Downing; Dotson coming the Sox way as a thrown-in took some of the sting away).

Edited September 17, 2018 by GreenSox

[pcq]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

I don't think he quite did that,  but he was an above average regular for them for 10+ years.
The post 58 transactions are probably the most egregious, but, as you said, they have a habit of doing that sort of thing.  In the late 60s they trade for Tommy Davis and an aging Aparicio and the team hits the skids.  Then it's Ron Santo and Ralph Garr.  And then Bobby Bonds (for the highly productive Brian Downing; Dotson coming the Sox way as a thrown-in took some of the sting away).

Yes Norm won the batting title in 1961. He was quite happy hitting at Tiger Stadium. He later gave career thanks to a short RF porch, expansion pitching and corked bats. From what I heard during the 1990's the bats were then being made by a guy in Chicago. Norm put in about 15 years with the Tigs. Also never wore a helmet but used a hat with plastic liner. 

[MnSoxFan]

2 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

We were reminiscing on another thread about some of the players on that infamous 1970 team that holds the record for most losses in a season (106).  That got me thinking about some of the worst trades that the Sox made, trades that probably cost us a pennant or two.

I'm talking about the trades that the sainted owner Bill Veeck allowed GM Frank Lane to make after the 1959 season.  The intent was to make sure that the '59 pennant was not a fluke and to compete for additional league championships.  To that end, they traded youngsters for over-the-hill veterans (some things never change).

We traded the likes of future 30-game winner Denny McLain, solid catcher Earl Battey,  young outfielder Johnny Callison and others for a bunch of has-beens.  Had we not made those trades, our record would have been a lot better in the mid to late 1960's, years in which we lost the pennant by a handful of games in a couple of those years.

I know that hindsight is 20/20 but I can't help wondering "what if".

We did not trade Denny McLain, he was just a kid and had to be protected under some rule. There were 3 kids and only 2 could be protected. So they protected Bruce Howard and Dave DeBusschere (yes the future NBA star). If Sox had known DeBusschere would leave a bright MLB future for the NBA. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

[WBWSF]

3 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

We were reminiscing on another thread about some of the players on that infamous 1970 team that holds the record for most losses in a season (106).  That got me thinking about some of the worst trades that the Sox made, trades that probably cost us a pennant or two.

I'm talking about the trades that the sainted owner Bill Veeck allowed GM Frank Lane to make after the 1959 season.  The intent was to make sure that the '59 pennant was not a fluke and to compete for additional league championships.  To that end, they traded youngsters for over-the-hill veterans (some things never change).

We traded the likes of future 30-game winner Denny McLain, solid catcher Earl Battey,  young outfielder Johnny Callison and others for a bunch of has-beens.  Had we not made those trades, our record would have been a lot better in the mid to late 1960's, years in which we lost the pennant by a handful of games in a couple of those years.

I know that hindsight is 20/20 but I can't help wondering "what if".

Veecks GM was Hank Greenberg, not Frank Lane. Veeck and his GM traded Callison, Battey, Romano, Mincher and Cash. Veteran White Sox players like Landis, Pierce and Fox couldn't believe Veeck traded all the White Sox young talent for older players. I always found it interesting that the media in Chicago had a high opinion of Veeck. They never mentioned how he traded off the teams young talent after the  1959 season. The September 1965 issue of Baseball Digest had a article "How Veeck Ruined The White Sox". This article pointed out all the bad trades Veeck made after the 1959 season. Everybody else in the media gave Veeck a pass.

Edited September 18, 2018 by WBWSF

[The Mighty Mite]

56 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Veecks GM was Hank Greenberg, not Frank Lane. Veeck and his GM traded Callison, Battey, Romano, Mincher and Cash. Veteran White Sox players like Landis, Pierce and Fox couldn't believe Veeck traded all the White Sox young talent for older players. I always found it interesting that the media in Chicago had a high opinion of Veeck. They never mentioned how he traded off the teams young talent after the  1959 season. The September 1965 issue of Baseball Digest had a article "How Veeck Ruined The White Sox". This article pointed out all the bad trades Veeck made after the 1959 season. Everybody else in the media gave Veeck a pass.

You beat me to it, Lane left the Sox around 1957 for the Cards and then the Indians where he traded managers with the Tigers and then  traded fan favorite Rocky Colovito to Detroit for Harvey Kueen, Tribe fans went nuts after that trade.

The trades after the 1959 season were horrible but Ed Short a few years later made some very good trades which led to the 3 best consecutive Sox seasons in their history, in 63, 64, and 65 the Sox were the best team in the AL winning 94, 98 and 95 games for a 3 year total of 287-199. How I miss those years when we had 17 straight winning seasons and Chicago was a Sox town.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by The Mighty Mite

[elrockinMT]

4 hours ago, GreenSox said:

I don't think he quite did that,  but he was an above average regular for them for 10+ years.
The post 58 transactions are probably the most egregious, but, as you said, they have a habit of doing that sort of thing.  In the late 60s they trade for Tommy Davis and an aging Aparicio and the team hits the skids.  Then it's Ron Santo and Ralph Garr.  And then Bobby Bonds (for the highly productive Brian Downing; Dotson coming the Sox way as a thrown-in took some of the sting away).

Hated that trade with the Mets of Tommie Agee to the Mets for Tommy Davis

[Lip Man 1]

20 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

We were reminiscing on another thread about some of the players on that infamous 1970 team that holds the record for most losses in a season (106).  That got me thinking about some of the worst trades that the Sox made, trades that probably cost us a pennant or two.

I'm talking about the trades that the sainted owner Bill Veeck allowed GM Frank Lane to make after the 1959 season.  The intent was to make sure that the '59 pennant was not a fluke and to compete for additional league championships.  To that end, they traded youngsters for over-the-hill veterans (some things never change).

We traded the likes of future 30-game winner Denny McLain, solid catcher Earl Battey,  young outfielder Johnny Callison and others for a bunch of has-beens.  Had we not made those trades, our record would have been a lot better in the mid to late 1960's, years in which we lost the pennant by a handful of games in a couple of those years.

I know that hindsight is 20/20 but I can't help wondering "what if".

This and that:

The Sox traded the cream of their minor league crop before the start of the 1960 season. They traded Johnny Callison (whom they tried to reacquire before the start of the 1962 season), Norm Cash, John "Honey" Romano, Don Mincher and Earl Battey They also traded pitcher Barry Latman. Every one of those guys made the All-Star team in the next few seasons.

Veeck knew he needed to get power because the Yankees had just acquired a guy named Roger Maris.

He originally wanted to get Orlando Cepeda and Bill White. Had a tentative deal with Giants for him that included Sherm Lollar but it fell apart. He then did what he could by getting Minoso, Gene Freese and Roy Sievers. Oddly enough those guys all performed well in 1960, but down years from the veteran regulars Fox, Aparicio, Landis and the drop in pitching from Early Wynn and Bob Shaw meant a third place finish.  Along with this bizarre situation:

August 28, 1960 - Of all the crazy games and things that have happened when the Sox played at Baltimore, this one topped the list. The Sox started the day 2 ½ games behind the Yankees and trailed the O’s 3-0 going into the eighth inning. With two out, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox and Roy Sievers ripped consecutive singles, scoring a run and putting the tying runs on base. Manager Al Lopez called on Ted Kluszewski to pinch hit.

“Big Klu” drilled the pitch from Milt Pappas into the right field stands for an apparent three run homer except for one small thing…

Third base umpire Ed Hurley called time! Nobody remembered seeing him do it but he refused to change his call. Fox were ejected in the confrontation afterwards and Lopez played the game under protest.

The next day Hurley was quoted in the newspapers as saying "I wish to heck I hadn’t called it, I’d gladly take it back...” End result was the Sox lost, and were now three games behind the Yankees. Kluszewski later recalled that this game was the one that broke the team’s spirit that season.

Regarding Denny McLain...he wasn't traded:

April 8, 1963 – On this date, one of the biggest ‘what if’s’ in franchise history took place. As per the rules at the time, the White Sox had to choose between two pitchers signed to ‘bonus baby’ contracts. The rules stated that only one player signed to a deal for over a certain amount of money could remain in the organization. The other would have to be waived.

With that in mind rookies Bruce Howard and Denny McLain squared off in an intra-squad game to see who would be released and who got promoted to Double A Lynchburg. Howard won 2-1. McLain got his walking papers and was claimed by Detroit the following week. He’d go on to win 131 big league games including 31 in 1968. 

When I interviewed Milo Hamilton, he remembered this about McLain:

MH: “Well the pitch-off was only part of the reason the Sox let him go. He was a cocky kid. His high school used to get tickets to Sox games and I can still remember him sitting by the dugout yelling “I can beat those guys.” He was hard to handle and his attitude was something that Al Lopez (Author’s Note: White Sox manager) and the organization just wasn’t going to put up with. In spring training he ran up a 700 hundred dollar phone bill talking to his girlfriend and he refused to pay it.”  

“Howard was a clean cut kid. Never gave anyone any trouble. Unfortunately he didn’t turn out to be much of a pitcher and in that respect you have to give McLain his due, he turned into a great pitcher. I mean he won 30 games one season.”  

 

[NWINFan]

By the end of the Sixties, the White Sox were in horrible shape. The team had little talent, less money, a shrinking fan base, an aging stadium, and were completely overshadowed by the 1969 Cubs. In a large sense, the franchise never fully recovered. But I don't wonder about "what ifs" of over 50 years ago anymore. I wonder what if the current rebuild doesn't work.

[Lip Man 1]

On 9/17/2018 at 4:08 PM, GreenSox said:

I don't think he quite did that,  but he was an above average regular for them for 10+ years.
The post 58 transactions are probably the most egregious, but, as you said, they have a habit of doing that sort of thing.  In the late 60s they trade for Tommy Davis and an aging Aparicio and the team hits the skids.  Then it's Ron Santo and Ralph Garr.  And then Bobby Bonds (for the highly productive Brian Downing; Dotson coming the Sox way as a thrown-in took some of the sting away).

Ralph Garr played well for the Sox.

[Lip Man 1]

On 9/17/2018 at 5:40 PM, pcq said:

Yes Norm won the batting title in 1961. He was quite happy hitting at Tiger Stadium. He later gave career thanks to a short RF porch, expansion pitching and corked bats. From what I heard during the 1990's the bats were then being made by a guy in Chicago. Norm put in about 15 years with the Tigs. Also never wore a helmet but used a hat with plastic liner. 

In a story in Sports Illustrated he showed in detail how he used to cork his bats.

[GreenSox]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Ralph Garr played well for the Sox.

Garr's batting average was good.  His OPS was modest, to be kind.