New Owner

[Panerista]

54 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

One thing WOULD be different:  the new owner would dump the incompetents that Reinsdorf is so damn loyal to (Williams, Steverson, etc.).

How would that make this rebuild any different?

[Lip Man 1]

5 hours ago, turnin' two said:

Gosh, I can only dream of the day when the Sox have an owner willing to pony up for contracts like Carl Crawford, Daisuke, Edwin Jackson, Jason Heyward and Yu Darvish.  Those will be the days.

To be fair he's been able to overcome those mistakes and actually win. When the Sox sign stiffs like Dunn, LaRoche, Shark et al they're DOA.

[caulfield12]

Apparently we need to show the career OPS numbers of all the Cubs' position prospects that have come up in the last half decade and compare them.

Do we get any credit for Palka?  A little, I guess...

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 9/20/2018 at 5:32 PM, AustinIllini said:

How would that make this rebuild any different?

Well, we can't prove the unprovable here. 

But, we're into the truly difficult part of the rebuild, which is the development phase; I think the extant front office has not done everything to maximize the assets they acquired earlier. Thus, with "fresh eyes" on the assets in residence, perhaps a more prudent course could have been taken with certain players, and cords could have been cut with others that should have been cut loose sooner.

The other side of the coin is that having more or less the same top of the front office likely means that there hasn't been much innovation insofar as operations. [Yes, I'm speculating, but long-term incumbency tends to invite stagnation in organizations.]

[bubba phillips]

5 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Well, we can't prove the unprovable here. 

But, we're into the truly difficult part of the rebuild, which is the development phase; I think the extant front office has not done everything to maximize the assets they acquired earlier. Thus, with "fresh eyes" on the assets in residence, perhaps a more prudent course could have been taken with certain players, and cords could have been cut with others that should have been cut loose sooner.

The other side of the coin is that having more or less the same top of the front office likely means that there hasn't been much innovation insofar as operations. [Yes, I'm speculating, but long-term incumbency tends to invite stagnation in organizations.]

Reinsdorf is letting the same schmucks who ran the franchise into the ground in the first place, be in charge of the rebuild.  Does that make sense, in any business?

[fathom]

3 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

Reinsdorf is letting the same schmucks who ran the franchise into the ground in the first place, be in charge of the rebuild.  Does that make sense, in any business?

How anyone kept their job after 2016 is the biggest mystery of all of this 

[Eminor3rd]

The desperation with which you want a scapegoat is amazing. Just making up numbers about value, saying you wish the team was losing money, and generally assuming that you have any clue as to how JR’s ownership actually affects day-to-day baseball operations is just random meatball bullshit. 

The team is financially stable, staff enjoy working for the group, and theyve shown they have no problem maintaining a payroll in the top half of the league when it makes sense (or even sometimes when doesn’t make sense) to do so. The team can win. There is no reason to believe ownership is the problem. 

[GreenSox]

3 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

There is no reason to believe ownership is the problem. 

Except that the ownership let the same people who ran the org. into the ground stay in charge for the rebuild, as per above.  That is a problem, and, if this doesn't work in the next couple of years, the problem.

Edited September 24, 2018 by GreenSox

[Panerista]

On 9/22/2018 at 9:33 PM, fathom said:

How anyone kept their job after 2016 is the biggest mystery of all of this 

Well there are a ton of things that are beyond you.  Too many to mention when it comes to baseball.

[kitekrazy]

On 9/20/2018 at 8:45 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

To be fair he's been able to overcome those mistakes and actually win. When the Sox sign stiffs like Dunn, LaRoche, Shark et al they're DOA.

 Hopefully they have come to their sense that veteran NL talent is always a bust for them.

[Dick Allen]

Since Rick Hahn has taken over as GM the Sox are 130 games,almost a full season, below .500. Their best finish in the AL Central, where they hold several advantages, is 4th place. 

 

To say another team would give him him the opportunity to do a total rebuild is silly. I get once they commit to the rebuild, they have to see it through, but the leash has to be short. If they aren’t contending in 2020,he has to go, and he can take KW with him.

[WBWSF]

Bobby Evans just got fired from his GM job with the Giants. He had 2 winning seasons and then after 2 losing seasons he was shown the door. Hahn has been here 6 years and the team has not had one winning season.  Hahn is lucky he's working for a owner who doesn't care about winning.  I read  where Hahns contract runs thru the 2019 season. It will be interesting to see if he gets rehired.

Edited September 25, 2018 by WBWSF

[ptatc]

30 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Booby Evans just got fired from his GM job with the Giants. He had 2 winning seasons and then after 2 losing seasons he was shown the door. Hahn has been here 6 years and the team has not had one winning season.  Hahn is lucky he's working for a owner who doesn't care about winning.  I read  where Hahns contract runs thru the 2019 season. It will be interesting to see if he gets rehired.

Is that really a fair judgement of his talent though? I think most of the time managers and GMs are fired it's being too reactionary to idiot fans. A team can't have a winning team without consistency. Some other factors that could play into the decision are things like JR demanding they stay in win now mode for so long. I can see why the FO was given the chance at a rebuild since they had been pushing itvfor so long.

They irony is that this was all brought on by JR always wanting to keep a winning team on the field. 

[Dick Allen]

35 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Is that really a fair judgement of his talent though? I think most of the time managers and GMs are fired it's being too reactionary to idiot fans. A team can't have a winning team without consistency. Some other factors that could play into the decision are things like JR demanding they stay in win now mode for so long. I can see why the FO was given the chance at a rebuild since they had been pushing itvfor so long.

They irony is that this was all brought on by JR always wanting to keep a winning team on the field. 

It's a fair point, but when he was trying to win and selling his team as playoff caliber, the best he could do was 78 wins. 

To me, the leash has to be short, and winning in 2020 is a must. But I think if there are enough hiccups in 2019, that is grounds to make a change.

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It's a fair point, but when he was trying to win and selling his team as playoff caliber, the best he could do was 78 wins. 

To me, the leash has to be short, and winning in 2020 is a must. But I think if there are enough hiccups in 2019, that is grounds to make a change.

I agree. There needs to be a winning record I 2020. That is year 3 of the rebuild and there should be positive results by then. 

[Balta1701]

53 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I agree. There needs to be a winning record I 2020. That is year 3 of the rebuild and there should be positive results by then. 

I think a big reason why people keep saying stuff like this is that there now seems to be a good chance that there will still be a losing record in 2020...Eloy's arrival isn't enough to turn a 100 loss team into an 80 loss team, you and I have a little disagreement on what Kopech will bring to the table in 2020, the catchers aren't likely to be big producers in 2020, the big outfield arrivals aren't until the end of 2020, Cease will be a rookie, and counting on a young bullpen to consistently break through is iffy at best. Throw in any more major injuries on top of that like what we saw this year, and this team could easily show no progress the next 2 years. 

But, if the White Sox win 70 games in 2020 and 68 in 2021, I don't think there's anyone out there who believes, deep down, that Rick Hahn will receive anything other than a raise and a contract extension. 

[bmags]

I think the one thing that continues to make me incredibly nervous is all of the successful rebuilds recently didn't just try to draft well but tried to exploitt he boundaries of what talent was available for rebuilding teams.

What is the area you can say the white sox did that in? Essentially being aggressive on turning reduced-value (to white sox) intl slot bonus into college relievers.

I am happy we have Robert, but where would this rebuild be if we had truly had a spending blowout on intl free agency with 20+ signings?

We've passed on rule 5. 

We have used waivers during this time, but to nowhere near the effect of the Milwaukee Brewers.

It seems the team has cornered this area where they are aggressively seeking corner power bats and minor league/college relievers that they believe are undervalued. Now that we have a plethora, really the one spectacular thing that could happen and likely needs to happen is to have a completely organic bullpen to allow all money to go to position players and pitchers.

By all accounts, sox have made changes in attempts to be modern in all scouting, but doesn't it come across as just an attempt to be above average? And it still rings a bit that our pro scouting team may still be truly horrendous, as they have yet to show in the entirety of the Hahn era that they are capable of squeezing value out of anything other than taking chances on marginal vet bullpen arms.

This is long and I'm sorry, but it also just concerns me. Because while we have added volume and quality through sending out our elite or very quality cost controlled pieces, they have not been supplemented well in draft, and have not been supplemented well out of LatAm.

While I am not a Moncada hater, it is hard to see how this team will be an elite contender if Moncada does not become an elite piece alongside Jimenez. Otherwise we need a prospect soon to blast through the doors, not just look like potential backend top 100 players. 

[Thad Bosley]

21 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

The team can win. There is no reason to believe ownership is the problem. 

I think people can support this point of view 100%, provided they are willing to overlook the fact that the ownership is currently presiding over:

• A team with the third worst record in all of baseball this year, on the heals of having the fourth worst team last year
• A team that has lost more games in the last six years than any other team in all of baseball during that time
• A team that has extended it's playoff drought to a full decade now, continuing on with the fourth such longest drought in all of baseball (despite the existence of two wild card spots)
• A team that has only made it to the postseason five times in nearly four decades under said ownership

If you can get past those inconvenient truths, then yes, you can conclude "there is no reason to believe ownership is the problem".  

Edited September 25, 2018 by Fan O'Faust

[Eminor3rd]

4 hours ago, WBWSF said:

Bobby Evans just got fired from his GM job with the Giants. He had 2 winning seasons and then after 2 losing seasons he was shown the door. Hahn has been here 6 years and the team has not had one winning season.  Hahn is lucky he's working for a owner who doesn't care about winning.  I read  where Hahns contract runs thru the 2019 season. It will be interesting to see if he gets rehired.

It’s almost as if there’s more to that job than we fans can see. 

[Eminor3rd]

1 minute ago, Fan O'Faust said:

I think people can support this point of view 100%, provided they are willing to overlook the fact that the ownership is currently presiding over:

• A team with the third worst record in all of baseball this year, on the heals of having the fourth worst team last year
• A team that has lost more games in the last six years than any other team in all of baseball during that time
• A team that has extended it's playoff drought to a full decade now, continuing on with the fourth such longest drought in all of baseball (despite the existence of two wild card spots)
• A team that has only made it to the postseason five times in nearly four decades under said ownership

If you can get past those inconvenient truths, then yes, you can conclude "there is no reason to believe ownership is the problem".  

You can provide zero evidence to attribute any of those bullet points to ownership. 

This is my point. You’re upset that the team sucks (we all are) but you insist on a public scapegoat, so you just pick a figure to vilify, pretending at reasons. This is what frustrates me. It’s just untruth. 

I mean look at your first bullet point. You know damn well that the team is publicly rebuilding, has been following a blueprint that has led to the last two championship teams we’ve seen, and that ownership specifically was hard pressed to accept it (ie stop spending money trying to bring you a winner every year no matter how bad it got). And yet you listed “third worst record in baseball this year” as a reason that the ownership group is incompetent. Look yourself in the mirror and try to accept that logic. 

This team is hard to watch. I hate it too.  But please, let’s be BETTER than this as fans. Let’s not make up bullshit. Let’s evaluate what’s actually in front of us. 

[southsider2k5]

43 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

You can provide zero evidence to attribute any of those bullet points to ownership. 

This is my point. You’re upset that the team sucks (we all are) but you insist on a public scapegoat, so you just pick a figure to vilify, pretending at reasons. This is what frustrates me. It’s just untruth. 

I mean look at your first bullet point. You know damn well that the team is publicly rebuilding, has been following a blueprint that has led to the last two championship teams we’ve seen, and that ownership specifically was hard pressed to accept it (ie stop spending money trying to bring you a winner every year no matter how bad it got). And yet you listed “third worst record in baseball this year” as a reason that the ownership group is incompetent. Look yourself in the mirror and try to accept that logic. 

This team is hard to watch. I hate it too.  But please, let’s be BETTER than this as fans. Let’s not make up bullshit. Let’s evaluate what’s actually in front of us. 

He doesn't care.  He wants a nice simple answer to a complex question and ownership is the easiest one of them all.

[Eminor3rd]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

He doesn't care.  He wants a nice simple answer to a complex question and ownership is the easiest one of them all.

Right — it seems like there is a whole class of poster who just NEEDS to be able to point the finger at SOMEONE, even if it’s wrong. Some head HAS to roll, even if it’s counterproductive. I don’t understand that feeling. I just want wins. I can’t imagine rooting for my team to fail so that firings can occur. 

[caulfield12]

If you go in any direction, we’ve been beaten up by rivals.

Cubs and Cardinals.

Brewers and Twins with new stadiums, better attendance, more competitive teams (2002-2010, two of last three years from MN, Milwaukee recently and with Greinke/Sabathia), playoff appearances, etc.

KC in 2014-15.

Cleveland for the last four seasons, likely to be at least 5 in 2019, not unlike Tigers’ run at beginning of decade.

About the best thing you can say is that we’re in similar situations to the Reds, Tigers, Pirates...or Mariners, for a myriad of different reasons.  We’re not KC, at least?  Perhaps the most remarkable aspect is we’re STILL 24th in MLB attendance, the same as 2012/13 and an improvement position-wise on 2014-17!!!  

Of course, the “real” revenue generation has fallen off even more dramatically than those numbers would indicate compared to the Cubs, Cardinals and Brewers.  Profitability, definitely...but largely due to revenue sharing, the Chicago market and one of the most advantageous stadium lease deals.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance

Obvious problem is we’ve arguably lost another 10-15% of the fanbase...but, halfway through blind luck, we’re better positioned for competing the AL Central than any team but the Indians for the next five years (2020 is the first year you can realistically argue anything close to competitiveness, barring some shocking free agency moves.)

Edited September 25, 2018 by caulfield12

[bubba phillips]

3 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

I think people can support this point of view 100%, provided they are willing to overlook the fact that the ownership is currently presiding over:

• A team with the third worst record in all of baseball this year, on the heals of having the fourth worst team last year
• A team that has lost more games in the last six years than any other team in all of baseball during that time
• A team that has extended it's playoff drought to a full decade now, continuing on with the fourth such longest drought in all of baseball (despite the existence of two wild card spots)
• A team that has only made it to the postseason five times in nearly four decades under said ownership

If you can get past those inconvenient truths, then yes, you can conclude "there is no reason to believe ownership is the problem".  

Excellent points!!!  I guess the Reinsdorf Apologists believe that no one should ever get fired.

[NorthSideSox72]

it seems like there are quite a few posters here that still don't understand what a rebuild is and how they work. Or alternately, they know, and prefer the team go back to funding teams that are a little better but never quite get to the promised land.