James Shields

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Because a part of this is evaluating your own talent.  Looking at the minor league pitchers, there are open slots for 2019 for sure, but for 2020, you really want to have those slots available.  1 year deals, fine.  2+?  Not unless we are talking about Clayton Kershaw.

I suppose everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I disagree. I'll leave it at that.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you are going to take the long game on the system sucking, there is quite literally no reason to spend money any time soon because this team is going to be awful for the next decade. 

And if you are going to keeping saying things like we don't need any starting or relief  pitching because if we do the rebuild is a failure you will end up having years like this one where injuries cloud the whole future of the franchise not just the rebuild, Solely waiting for future pieces is all well and good if no one gets hurt and everyone develops as planned and Fa's we sign to supplement those draft choices end up playing well. Oh wait the current FO has no recent history of developing position players or making good choices on FA's. Your plan is foolproof but the question still remains if we have fools or not running the show.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

And if you are going to keeping saying things like we don't need any starting or relief  pitching because if we do the rebuild is a failure you will end up having years like this one where injuries cloud the whole future of the franchise not just the rebuild, Solely waiting for future pieces is all well and good if no one gets hurt and everyone develops as planned and Fa's we sign to supplement those draft choices end up playing well. Oh wait the current FO has no recent history of developing position players or making good choices on FA's. Your plan is foolproof but the question still remains if we have fools or not running the show.

This is great circular logic.  We can't develop players, or make good free agents signings, so we should go sign a bunch of free agents to make sure that we can't develop any players.

The reality is that we just finished the second year of the rebuild, and you are still running a turd of a team on to the field.  Why we need to add free agents to that, I have no idea.  You need to quit thinking we are just a player or two away.  We aren't.  We are still years away.  Adding Gio Gonzalez or Mike Moustakis to this mess so we can pick 9th instead 3rd just doesn't make any sense to me.  This is exactly the kind of stuff that people spent years being pissed about and demanding a rebuild.  Now we've got the rebuild, and people want back the infamous KW mentality of team building.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

29 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

The Sox will likely need someone like this, but it stands to reason they will essentially wait until February and sign the best of whoever is left as cheaply as possible. There are a million guys that could fill that role. 

I didn't know a million guys pitched 200 innings this year. Easy peezy to find one then. But I do agree on the 1st part of what you said they will do ;wait wait cheap

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is great circular logic.  We can't develop players, or make good free agents signings, so we should go sign a bunch of free agents to make sure that we can't develop any players.

The reality is that we just finished the second year of the rebuild, and you are still running a turd of a team on to the field.  Why we need to add free agents to that, I have no idea.  You need to quit thinking we are just a player or two away.  We aren't.  We are still years away.  Adding Gio Gonzalez or Mike Moustakis to this mess so we can pick 9th instead 3rd just doesn't make any sense to me.  This is exactly the kind of stuff that people spent years being pissed about and demanding a rebuild.  Now we've got the rebuild, and people want back the infamous KW mentality of team building.

Wow I didn't know Moose was so good that in a half season he could ve propelled us from 3rd pick to 9th pick. That's amazing. No one is thinking we are a player or two away. We are trying to help the rebuild our way just as you are yours. We need more assets. We need better defenders and less DH's. We need more talent in AA/AAA. In other words we need less of what we already have and more of what we don't have.

[Lillian]

Regarding Shields: There really is no basis for expecting that he will revert back to his 2017 performance. He made a significant adjustment in his approach and delivery and it has helped him to "reinvent" himself. Watching him this season, it is obvious that he is a completely different kind of pitcher now. If he stays healthy, there is no reason that he can't continue to do what he did this season. It doesn't make him a top, or middle of the rotation starter, but it certainly qualifies him,  as an innings eating, 5TH starter.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Wow I didn't know Moose was so good that in a half season he could ve propelled us from 3rd pick to 9th pick. That's amazing. No one is thinking we are a player or two away. We are trying to help the rebuild our way just as you are yours. We need more assets. We need better defenders and less DH's. We need more talent in AA/AAA. In other words we need less of what we already have and more of what we don't have.

I don't think you appreciate how close the difference between draft picks is right now with as many awful teams as are out there today.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't think you appreciate how close the difference between draft picks is right now with as many awful teams as are out there today.

 I think it's time to take a few chances and getting better tradeable assets . I thought the same thing last year. As you said we have a roster full of turds and the conservative approach will get us a top 5 pick this year.

Suppose Eloy comes in and does great. Maybe Gio,Rodon and Lopez get better too . Maybe those young relievers are better than we hope . Maybe Moncada gets much better. Doesn't that also hurt draft status ? Does letting those young guys learn to lose together help anything ? Show them  we want to get better . Show them the FO believes in them.

[ChiSox59]

I'd rather try somebody else.  I'd rather sign a guy Sabathia, Ryu, Harvey, Hellickson, Ross or Pomeranz.  But Shields is definitely well liked and respected in the clubhouse, so I could definitely see a reunion on a 1 year deal in the $5-8M range.  Let the 5th spot go to the winner of Covey (please just put in pen), Stephens, or Guerrero.  

[ChiSox59]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 I think it's time to take a few chances and getting better tradeable assets . I thought the same thing last year. As you said we have a roster full of turds and the conservative approach will get us a top 5 pick this year.

Suppose Eloy comes in and does great. Maybe Gio,Rodon and Lopez get better too . Maybe those young relievers are better than we hope . Maybe Moncada gets much better. Doesn't that also hurt draft status ? Does letting those young guys learn to lose together help anything ? Show them  we want to get better . Show them the FO believes in them.

Yah, I was in that camp.  I still may be, but the Kopech injury definitely changes things.  I was ready to try to put a team together that maybe, just maybe, if things went well had a chance to compete.  Now, I don't see it happening unless the Sox go bananas in FA. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

Do we really need 5 “inning eaters” in 2019? Spend the money to get a quality #2 starter. Roll with Rodon, FA, Lopez, Gio, then an opener for 5th spot, use Covey, Stephens, Adams, or Guerrero as the primary pitcher. We could work this strategy until Cease is ready then we could reevaluate.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 I think it's time to take a few chances and getting better tradeable assets . I thought the same thing last year. As you said we have a roster full of turds and the conservative approach will get us a top 5 pick this year.

Suppose Eloy comes in and does great. Maybe Gio,Rodon and Lopez get better too . Maybe those young relievers are better than we hope . Maybe Moncada gets much better. Doesn't that also hurt draft status ? Does letting those young guys learn to lose together help anything ? Show them  we want to get better . Show them the FO believes in them.

If they succeed, there is nothing stopping you from adding. 

These guys understand this process.  They have watched it happen on the northside, KC, and Houston.  The latter two did no adding until they were within striking distance of winning something.  The Cubs added early, but they also had the fanbase to support it.  At their core they know they have jobs to win in the future, if that isn't motivation enough, they probably weren't going to make it anyway.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yah, I was in that camp.  I still may be, but the Kopech injury definitely changes things.  I was ready to try to put a team together that maybe, just maybe, if things went well had a chance to compete.  Now, I don't see it happening unless the Sox go bananas in FA. 

I don't see it happening now either but good things besides competing can still happen and the Sox need to show some confidence in their abilities to get some flippable assets. Hahn and company need to break their slump on FA's and identifying good young position players.Take some chances , You can't break a slump unless you swing the bat.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If they succeed, there is nothing stopping you from adding. 

These guys understand this process.  They have watched it happen on the northside, KC, and Houston.  The latter two did no adding until they were within striking distance of winning something.  The Cubs added early, but they also had the fanbase to support it.  At their core they know they have jobs to win in the future, if that isn't motivation enough, they probably weren't going to make it anyway.

Succeeding is very difficult without competent fielders around you. Gio didn't pitch terrible but his line looked terrible because LaMarre ran in on a fly ball that ended up going over his head. Being a successful hitter  many times is dependent on a better lineup around you. You can't throw junk to competent hitters who know how to play the game and get away with it like so many get away with it now pitching to a bunch of low OBP, low batting average, high K guys.

It's really sad when I can look at Tampa Bays team and front office and think to myself 'how do they keep playing well and having good players ?' Their roster is in constant flux . How is it that St. L can trade a bunch of guys and others step right in and they actually become better ?

How the hell did Oakland do what they did this year ?

Edited September 26, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ChiSox59]

17 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Do we really need 5 “inning eaters” in 2019? Spend the money to get a quality #2 starter. Roll with Rodon, FA, Lopez, Gio, then an opener for 5th spot, use Covey, Stephens, Adams, or Guerrero as the primary pitcher. We could work this strategy until Cease is ready then we could reevaluate.

What is the purpose of an "opener"?  It makes no sense to me unless you're working with expanded rosters and simply want to play matchups in the first few innings in a very important game.  

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Succeeding is very difficult without competent fielders around you. Gio didn't pitch terrible but his line looked terrible because LaMarre ran in on a fly ball that ended up going over his head. Being a successful hitter  many times is dependent on a better lineup around you. You can't throw junk to competent hitters who know how to play the game and get away with it like so many get away with it now pitching to a bunch of low OBP, low batting average, high K guys.

It's really sad when I can look at Tampa Bays team and front office and think to myself 'how do they keep playing well and having good players ?' Their roster is in constant flux . How is it that St. L can trade a bunch of guys and others step right in and they actually become better ?

This team isn't going to succeed in 2019 though.  Again, this was year 2 of a full meltdown.

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I didn't know a million guys pitched 200 innings this year. Easy peezy to find one then. But I do agree on the 1st part of what you said they will do ;wait wait cheap

Yep, precisely 1,000,000. 

[OmarComing25]

35 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

What is the purpose of an "opener"?  It makes no sense to me unless you're working with expanded rosters and simply want to play matchups in the first few innings in a very important game.  

Its main purpose is to avoid having your backend starters facing the top of the lineup a third time through the order when they're probably going to get hammered.

Edited September 26, 2018 by OmarComing25

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, OmarComing25 said:

Its main purpose is to avoid having your backend starters facing the top of the lineup a third time through the order when they're probably going to get hammered.

Hadn't thought of it that way, but that makes some sense I guess

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Do we really need 5 “inning eaters” in 2019? Spend the money to get a quality #2 starter. Roll with Rodon, FA, Lopez, Gio, then an opener for 5th spot, use Covey, Stephens, Adams, or Guerrero as the primary pitcher. We could work this strategy until Cease is ready then we could reevaluate.

Does it really make sense to you to bid $125/5 or higher than that to get Corbin and to outbid the Yankees? You ready to spend $25 million on him next year? (and give up a draft pick, less important now but still).

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Do we really need 5 “inning eaters” in 2019? Spend the money to get a quality #2 starter. Roll with Rodon, FA, Lopez, Gio, then an opener for 5th spot, use Covey, Stephens, Adams, or Guerrero as the primary pitcher. We could work this strategy until Cease is ready then we could reevaluate.

Um, they currently don't have any going into next year.

[Balta1701]

50 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

Um, they currently don't have any going into next year.

Luca$ and Reynaldo both are going to wind up around 180 this year after around 170 for both of them last year but the majority in the minors. Especially if Luca$ can be slightly, a tiny bit better next year, you'd really like both of those guys to hit 200.

[Jose Abreu]

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Does it really make sense to you to bid $125/5 or higher than that to get Corbin and to outbid the Yankees? You ready to spend $25 million on him next year? (and give up a draft pick, less important now but still).

It doesn't make sense to me to pay 1/$7M for Shields or someone like him when you could potentially get similar or better production through deploy a strategy that a few teams had success with already. That $7M could be allocated elsewhere.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

Yep, precisely 1,000,000. 

Outside of the big guys who will command larger contracts I'm pretty sure there aren't a hell of a lot of FA pitchers as reliable as Shields is who would settle on a 1 year deal.  If you had 20 starts this year pitched 150 innings without an ERA in higher than  5,00 without too bad of an injury history and aren't 35+ years old  you're probably going to get 2 years or one year at a higher salary like Happ .

You really should check the FA starting pitching market . Siim pickins  and lots of competition. If you wait and go cheap say hello to Derek Holland  Liriano, Edwin Jackson , Colon, , Marco Estrada or Shields. Maybe you luck out and get Matt Harvey on a 1 year deal where he doesn't get hurt again. Even Lance Lynn or Anibal Sanchez  could get 2 years.